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indyfabz 07-21-22 10:34 AM


Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22582284)
Well, in that store in B-ville, a lot of them looked kinda unhealthy. A lot of them had caught obesity.

Yeah. The people shopping in Everett were on the larger side of the spectrum.

Another weird I noticed a few years back was in Montana. I was in a lot of rural, less well-to-do parts of the state. After maybe a week I rolled into Whitefish, set up camp and hit up the Safeway. Whitefish is in a more affluent area of the state, in part thanks to tourism from Glacier N.P. At the Safeway I noticed a lot of fit looking people, including fit looking children, driving nice, well-kept vehicles buying healthy food. I hadn't noticed what I had not seen up until then until I saw what I did there.

MoAlpha 07-21-22 10:43 AM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582053)
Yes the mustard is to be taken after a cramp starts. It possibly tickles the nervous system in a way that, in some people, relieves a cramp. My friend swears by it.

YMMV

p.s. there is an expensive product called "HotShot" that likely works the same way.

I've read that theory, but if the taste stimulus just activates a brainstem reflex transiently, how is that superior to merely stretching the muscle and breaking the cramp?

Mojo31 07-21-22 10:44 AM

From what I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any real dispute that gross obesity is a poor man's sport.

This is going to sound horrible, but when I buy a used car, the first thing I look at is the condition of the seats. If there is any wear or sag, it's a pass.

datlas 07-21-22 10:45 AM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582386)
I've read that theory, but if the taste stimulus just activates a brainstem reflex transiently, how is that superior to merely stretching the muscle and breaking the cramp?

The nervous system works in mysterious ways? :innocent:

MoAlpha 07-21-22 10:46 AM


Originally Posted by Bah Humbug (Post 22582159)
TIL air flows from AGs office to mine. Sweating went insane when she started her ride.

Pheremones. Mmmmm.

MoAlpha 07-21-22 10:47 AM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582391)
The nervous system works in mysterious ways? :innocent:

That's for sure.

MoAlpha 07-21-22 10:48 AM


Originally Posted by Mojo31 (Post 22582389)
From what I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any real dispute that gross obesity is a poor man's sport.

This is going to sound horrible, but when I buy a used car, the first thing I look at is the condition of the seats. If there is any wear or sag, it's a pass.

I don't think that's horrible.

datlas 07-21-22 10:49 AM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582397)
That's for sure.

Should we take this topic to neuroforums.net??

genejockey 07-21-22 10:51 AM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582391)
The nervous system works in mysterious ways? :innocent:

Ain't that the effing truth.

genejockey 07-21-22 10:56 AM


Originally Posted by Mojo31 (Post 22582389)
From what I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any real dispute that gross obesity is a poor man's sport.

This is going to sound horrible, but when I buy a used car, the first thing I look at is the condition of the seats. If there is any wear or sag, it's a pass.

It is an interesting turn, that in the past, pale skin and a voluptuous figure in women was a sign of wealth, because 1) you didn't have to work outside and 2) you had enough food to overeat, but now it's the opposite - you have enough time and money to exercise outside and to eat healthy. Largely (haha) because calories are cheap now, especially in the most tempting forms - think McDonalds, Doritos and Entenmann's.

EDIT: I realize that many don't find those tempting, but really, they're calibrated to hit the areas where I don't think we evolved a "That's Too Much" sensor - fat, starch, sugar, the things our distant ancestors could never get enough of.

MoAlpha 07-21-22 10:56 AM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582401)
Should we take this topic to neuroforums.net??

Another place where one can claim anything, no matter how silly, and expect to be taken seriously? I'm in!

Mojo31 07-21-22 10:59 AM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582400)
I don't think that's horrible.

My wife does. She thinks that my explanation that heavy people put extraordinary wear on things is unfounded and judgmental.

MoAlpha 07-21-22 11:01 AM


Originally Posted by Mojo31 (Post 22582417)
My wife does. She thinks that my explanation that heavy people put extraordinary wear on things is unfounded and judgmental.

That's a fact. Thinking bad things about fat people themselves is unfounded and judgmental. Calling obesity a voluntary condition is also ridiculous.

Mojo31 07-21-22 11:02 AM


Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22582413)
It is an interesting turn, that in the past, pale skin and a voluptuous figure in women was a sign of wealth, because 1) you didn't have to work outside and 2) you had enough food to overeat, but now it's the opposite - you have enough time and money to exercise outside and to eat healthy. Largely (haha) because calories are cheap now, especially in the most tempting forms - think McDonalds, Doritos and Entenmann's.

EDIT: I realize that many don't find those tempting, but really, they're calibrated to hit the areas where I don't think we evolved a "That's Too Much" sensor - fat, starch, sugar, the things our distant ancestors could never get enough of.

They sure tempt me, and I often succumb. But, I'm careful to balance with healthier things and maintain some moderation.

Ice cream is my nemesis. I finally told my wife to stop buying it and refuse to do so even if I beg.

With that, I'll admit that I'm not a poster child for fitness and healthy eating.

Eric F 07-21-22 11:14 AM

Fantastic display of sportsmanship in the TDF today. Classy and respectful competition.

datlas 07-21-22 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582420)
That's a fact. Thinking bad things about fat people themselves is unfounded and judgmental. Calling obesity a voluntary condition is also ridiculous.

To what extent obesity is a disease and/or the result of unhealthy behavior is quite controversial.

I don't agree with fat shaming, but I am not so sure fat acceptance is a good strategy either.

genejockey 07-21-22 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by Mojo31 (Post 22582417)
My wife does. She thinks that my explanation that heavy people put extraordinary wear on things is unfounded and judgmental.

She should have seen the MG Midget a teacher of mine owned. I used to think he weighed 250, but having been 240 at one point, I'm pretty sure he was at least 280. With him in it, the car had a very pronounced lean to the left, which only moderated a bit when he got out. Mind you, the pre-1970 MGBs and Midgets had a surprising amount of legroom - I couldn't put the seat in mine all the way back, and I'm 6'.

genejockey 07-21-22 11:36 AM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582443)
To what extent obesity is a disease and/or the result of unhealthy behavior is quite controversial.

I don't agree with fat shaming, but I am not so sure fat acceptance is a good strategy either.

My take on it is that having to see it as one or the other is a mistake. Some people are naturally thin. My Dad was one of them. He was thin his whole life and trust me, he was a good eater. His job was largely sedentary, and he didn't go for long walks or otherwise do exercise. Mom was also on the thin side, but she did gain some weight when she stopped smoking.

Of the 6 of us, the older 4 have always been slender, but the last two of us, my sister and I, despite being skinny kids, struggled with weight after the age of 30. I don't know what the difference is, since the genetics come from the same pool, BUT we also grew up in somewhat of a different time. Sugary cereals were all the rage when we were kids, for example. Sodas became more prevalent, and larger. Candy, ice cream, etc. all more prominent, even though we did generally eat a healthy diet and as I say, we were both rail thin as kids, all the way through high school. So, did the greater exposure to fattening foods as youngsters change something in our epigenetics, even without us becoming overweight in our childhoods? Or did it simply condition us to want/expect more caloric foods than the older sibs?

I used to work with a guy, really skinny. He said he COULD NOT gain weight, no matter what he ate. If he overate, at night it was like his metabolism kicked into overdrive and burned it off.

As far as fat shaming vs fat acceptance, I sometimes think that's the wrong question. It shouldn't be whether you're overweight or not, but whether you're fit, because you can be skinny and unfit, too.

t2p 07-21-22 11:50 AM


Originally Posted by big john (Post 22582316)
Probably because they bought un-aerodynamic bikes.

that must be my problem

solved

MoAlpha 07-21-22 11:53 AM


Originally Posted by datlas (Post 22582443)
To what extent obesity is a disease and/or the result of unhealthy behavior is quite controversial.

I don't agree with fat shaming, but I am not so sure fat acceptance is a good strategy either.

My take is It's obviously both, i.e. a behavioral disorder like depression or mania, which people still think are the fault of patients. In my opinion, those who claim it's a "lack of willpower" are simply naming something nobody understands and remind me of the religious folks who think we'd all be Gay if we didn't keep our evil impulses in check.

If you believe it's primarily behavioral, the question is what is driving such massively self-destructive behavior. There are very pretty good data suggesting that distorted appetite and satiation in obesity are defending a body fat level that somehow got set way too high for reasons we don't understand at all. Obesity is NOT part of an adaptation to food scarcity, it's just a tendency which can't manifest itself under those conditions, so it didn't get bred out. A lot of smart people view excess fat as the body's way dealing with and detoxifying an energy overload, not an adaptive way way of stocking up.

Fat acceptance can obviously be taken too far. Obesity is obviously bad and all the behaviors which lead to it should be discouraged, but once the switch is flipped, yelling at people to turn off and reverse a powerful and likely permanent underlying process and making them responsible for a situation which all evidence suggests most people are helpless to control is, in my opinion, pretty dumb.

t2p 07-21-22 12:02 PM

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5d1a0e8c4.jpeg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5fad678f7.jpeg

Originally Posted by Eric F (Post 22582340)
Thanks. Both my daughters have vintage vinyl rigs, too. It's kind of a thing in our family.

my kids also have old school turntables and speakers ... combo / mix of Bose 201, 301, and Advent Legacy speakers ... and one set homegrown

some of that stuff with them now - but some remains

still have keyboard and some amps and guitars also

t2p 07-21-22 12:05 PM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582484)
My take is It's obviously both, i.e. a behavioral disorder like depression or mania, which people still think are the fault of patients. In my opinion, those who claim it's a "lack of willpower" are simply naming something nobody understands and remind me of the religious folks who think we'd all be Gay if we didn't keep our evil impulses in check.

If you believe it's primarily behavioral, the question is what is driving such massively self-destructive behavior. There are very pretty good data suggesting that distorted appetite and satiation in obesity are defending a body fat level that somehow got set way too high for reasons we don't understand at all. Obesity is NOT part of an adaptation to food scarcity, it's just a tendency which can't manifest itself under those conditions, so it didn't get bred out. A lot of smart people view excess fat as the body's way dealing with and detoxifying an energy overload, not an adaptive way way of stocking up.

Fat acceptance can obviously be taken too far. Obesity is obviously bad and all the behaviors which lead to it should be discouraged, but once the switch is flipped, yelling at people to turn off and reverse a powerful and likely permanent underlying process is dumb and making them responsible for a situation which all evidence suggests most people are helpless to control is, in my opinion, pretty dumb.

I will lose weight before the next pandemic !

genejockey 07-21-22 12:13 PM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582484)
My take is It's obviously both, i.e. a behavioral disorder like depression or mania, which people still think are the fault of patients. In my opinion, those who claim it's a "lack of willpower" are simply naming something nobody understands and remind me of the religious folks who think we'd all be Gay if we didn't keep our evil impulses in check.

If you believe it's primarily behavioral, the question is what is driving such massively self-destructive behavior. There are very pretty good data suggesting that distorted appetite and satiation in obesity are defending a body fat level that somehow got set way too high for reasons we don't understand at all. Obesity is NOT part of an adaptation to food scarcity, it's just a tendency which can't manifest itself under those conditions, so it didn't get bred out. A lot of smart people view excess fat as the body's way dealing with and detoxifying an energy overload, not an adaptive way way of stocking up.

Fat acceptance can obviously be taken too far. Obesity is obviously bad and all the behaviors which lead to it should be discouraged, but once the switch is flipped, yelling at people to turn off and reverse a powerful and likely permanent underlying process is dumb and making them responsible for a situation which all evidence suggests most people are helpless to control is, in my opinion, pretty dumb.

One of the most destructive things in mental health is the prevalent belief that people who are depressed, or anxious, or have any number of other related problems "just need to try harder". If you're suffering depression, you already feel worthless. So you try to try harder, and you're still depressed, but now you've also FAILED at getting yourself out of it.

WRT obesity, look at kids in grade school. In first grade, there were already skinny kids, heftier kids, and downright fat kids. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't a moral failing on the part of the last, nor any greater strength of character in the first. So, 40 years down the road, the one who were always skinny telling the ones who were always fat that "they just need to try harder" is simple cruelty.

MoAlpha 07-21-22 12:18 PM


Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22582518)
One of the most destructive things in mental health is the prevalent belief that people who are depressed, or anxious, or have any number of other related problems "just need to try harder". If you're suffering depression, you already feel worthless. So you try to try harder, and you're still depressed, but now you've also FAILED at getting yourself out of it.

WRT obesity, look at kids in grade school. In first grade, there were already skinny kids, heftier kids, and downright fat kids. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't a moral failing on the part of the last, nor any greater strength of character in the first. So, 40 years down the road, the one who were always skinny telling the ones who were always fat that "they just need to try harder" is simple cruelty.

Yeah, and obesity is just another highly technical and heavily researched area on which everyone feels qualified to pronounce.

Mojo31 07-21-22 12:18 PM


Originally Posted by MoAlpha (Post 22582484)
My take is It's obviously both, i.e. a behavioral disorder like depression or mania, which people still think are the fault of patients. In my opinion, those who claim it's a "lack of willpower" are simply naming something nobody understands and remind me of the religious folks who think we'd all be Gay if we didn't keep our evil impulses in check.

If you believe it's primarily behavioral, the question is what is driving such massively self-destructive behavior. There are very pretty good data suggesting that distorted appetite and satiation in obesity are defending a body fat level that somehow got set way too high for reasons we don't understand at all. Obesity is NOT part of an adaptation to food scarcity, it's just a tendency which can't manifest itself under those conditions, so it didn't get bred out. A lot of smart people view excess fat as the body's way dealing with and detoxifying an energy overload, not an adaptive way way of stocking up.

Fat acceptance can obviously be taken too far. Obesity is obviously bad and all the behaviors which lead to it should be discouraged, but once the switch is flipped, yelling at people to turn off and reverse a powerful and likely permanent underlying process is dumb and making them responsible for a situation which all evidence suggests most people are helpless to control is, in my opinion, pretty dumb.

Thoughts on the new study that suggests that depression is not a chemical serotonin imbalance?

Huge New Study Suggests Depression Isn't a Serotonin Imbalance After All (sciencealert.com)


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