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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

JohnDThompson 03-21-11 09:14 PM

That's probably just a void area in the lug. Not pretty, and arguably subject to rust, but unlikely to be a serious threat. Push some grease or linseed oil or something into the void to fill it and keep moisture out.

jamesj 03-21-11 09:23 PM

thats what i thought also but just wanted some confirmation. . do you think i could spray some framesaver in there and that would work?




Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 12392899)
That's probably just a void area in the lug. Not pretty, and arguably subject to rust, but unlikely to be a serious threat. Push some grease or linseed oil or something into the void to fill it and keep moisture out.


noglider 03-22-11 06:34 AM

Maybe you should use framesaver first and then follow up with grease to, um, seal it, kinda sorta.

Amesja 03-22-11 06:53 AM

I'd use OA to clean it, maybe even some Barkeeper's Friend on a toothbrush or Q-tip. Then just seal it up with some clear nail polish. Let it drip in there carefully and fill the gap.

rhm 03-22-11 07:16 AM

The real test, with that frame style, is whether the seat tube is straight. That style frame, if crashed hard enough to bend it, will typically get a kink in the seat tube right where that lug meets it. I've seen that a few times. I've never seen a lug crack along with that bend, but I suppose it could happen. Your bike seems to have a cracked lug weld as well as faulty brazing. I suppose the cracked lug could be the cause of the faulty brazing, in which case there's no coincidence. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility that faulty brazing plus a crash caused the lug to crack, in which case you could have a structural problem. I doubt it, but I can't tell. At any rate, if anything goes wrong it would most likely be that the seat tube will bend; and if you're worried about that, it is probably possible to reinforce the tube at that area by pushing an extra 25.4 mm seat post all the way down (well, not quite far enough to interfere with the BB).

w1gfh 03-22-11 09:31 AM

I have a quick and dumb question about the Sturmey Archer AW hub. How is the cable attached to the cable coupling (seen in upper left of this photo I found on the web)? The hub end of the shift cable is seen terminating in a knurled barrel affair. Is the cable end that's inside it crimped?...or knotted...or?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BPzisdtdAB...gIndUndone.jpg

BigPolishJimmy 03-22-11 09:44 AM

I think I have one that will slide out and is visibly knotted, but I don't know if that's the proper method.

Amesja 03-22-11 10:06 AM

1 Attachment(s)
The older cables were factory made to a specific length. NOS Raleigh cables are getting pretty pricey these days. You can buy generic cables with a cable stop that is external to the threaded barrel or just the end itself.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=194582

Some people say these "look wrong" but I don't see the big deal. If done professionally and with a crimped end on the cable they look fine to me. No worse than a knarp on the older double-ended brake cables IMHO.

Or you could always just silver-solder a knob at the end of a fresh cable after threading it through the old barrel. Getting the length exactly right would be kind of a pain -but it could be done.

More trouble than it is worth if you ask me. But I'm not a purist.

w1gfh 03-22-11 10:12 AM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 12394712)
The older cables were factory made to a specific length. NOS Raleigh cables are getting pretty pricey these days. You can buy generic cables with a cable stop that is external to the threaded barrel or just the end itself.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=194582

Some people say these "look wrong" but I don't see the big deal. If done professionally and with a crimped end on the cable they look fine to me. No worse than a knarp on the older double-ended brake cables IMHO.

Or you could always just silver-solder a knob at the end of a fresh cable after threading it through the old barrel. Getting the length exactly right would be kind of a pain -but it could be done.

More trouble than it is worth if you ask me. But I'm not a purist.

I kinda like the look of the original vintage hub connector/cable tensioner rather than the newer style with the outboard locknut. I wonder if simply tying a knot in the cable (within the barrel) would be OK?

Amesja 03-22-11 10:32 AM

It might be OK if you could get it to the right length and not have it slip.

3-speed hubs are extremely sensitive to cable adjustment. The hubs are bulletproof but cable slipping or stretch is a big deal -even a little bit will throw off the shifting. You don't want to find neutral by accident. I hate it when that happens.

I've heard of people who have claimed to have tied a knot in them successfully. I've never tried it. I say it's not a big deal to experiment but be careful about how you use the bike until you are sure that the cable isn't going to move and you can be certain that you won't find neutral and end up hurting yourself or biting your handlebar stem as you slip off the pedal unexpectedly. Cosmetic dentists are expensive ;)

w1gfh 03-22-11 11:05 AM

OK...found one on eBay, and here's a photo of the stock cable end treatment (below). Interesting.

What prompted my initial question: my 68 Raleigh Sports shift cable housing is cracked and bent for 1/2" where it goes into the ferrule at the trigger. I thought I'd trim the 1/2 inch, file it flat, and reinstall the cable housing. But to do that you have to remove the cable from the housing completely.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9091/cableend.jpg

Amesja 03-22-11 11:14 AM

I wonder how hard it would be to duplicate that end with conventional crimping technology? It's pretty small. It looks just like melted lead or some alloy. I've always thought it could be done. I had contemplated doing it for a double-ended brake cable but brakes are even more mission-critical than a shifter cable and have a lot more force to hold. I'm sure a simple crimp would do the trick if you could make one small enough. Perhaps a brass rod sized just a tiny bit larger than the cable could simply be crimped onto it or even soldered with some flux to run down into the cable.

JohnDThompson 03-22-11 12:32 PM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 12395097)
I wonder how hard it would be to duplicate that end with conventional crimping technology? It's pretty small. It looks just like melted lead or some alloy. I've always thought it could be done. I had contemplated doing it for a double-ended brake cable but brakes are even more mission-critical than a shifter cable and have a lot more force to hold. I'm sure a simple crimp would do the trick if you could make one small enough. Perhaps a brass rod sized just a tiny bit larger than the cable could simply be crimped onto it or even soldered with some flux to run down into the cable.

I don't know if I'd trust a crimp to hold under shifting tension -- it might be a long ride home in 3rd gear if it fails.

Maybe a blob of solder, though?

Amesja 03-22-11 02:21 PM

There shouldn't be much tension on the shift cable. Look how skinny the cable is to begin with. It's at least half the diameter of the brake cables. And the lever on the shifter is only an inch or so long. Not a lot of force is used there. The clutch spring in the hub is something like 1lb or less. It's just a big diameter pen-click spring. If there is more than 5 lbs of pressure on that shift cable when it is properly adjusted and maintained I'd be really surprised.

JohnDThompson 03-22-11 04:22 PM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 12396044)
There shouldn't be much tension on the shift cable. Look how skinny the cable is to begin with. It's at least half the diameter of the brake cables. And the lever on the shifter is only an inch or so long. Not a lot of force is used there. The clutch spring in the hub is something like 1lb or less. It's just a big diameter pen-click spring. If there is more than 5 lbs of pressure on that shift cable when it is properly adjusted and maintained I'd be really surprised.

It's not the standing tension I'd worry about but peak tensions during shifts.

Amesja 03-22-11 04:40 PM

I'm thinking peak tension isn't going to be much more than standing tension even when shifting into first (the most tension) unless the person is hammering on that lever. I don't think the cable itself would be good for more than a hundred or so pounds reliably/safely when new. I wonder how much pressure one could put on that tiny little trigger shifter. Looks like there can't be more than a 2/1 leverage ratio on that trigger from where the cable attaches to it. Maybe say 20lbs max a person could pull on that little thing without actually bringing pain to your hand. It's not like a 4-5" lever on a brake cable where there is more like a 10/1 leverage ratio on the cable.

I think a crimp would hold up pretty well if it were done right. I've seen crimps on conductors that were so durable that when equipment mounting catastrophically failed the fixture ended up hanging from the wire the crimp held the entire crash/drop weight. And that was on copper wire which deforms pretty easily so it's hard to get a crimp to hold a lot of mechanical weight when it is jerked hard.

But I suppose a solder would be best. Some brass or aluminum tubing soldered onto the cable would be exactly like that barrel formed end and would be very strong -especially if you used silver solder.

noglider 03-22-11 05:20 PM

I'm willing to try it. I still have lead-based solder. Not sure if it's still available. Would the new stuff be as strong?

mickey85 03-22-11 05:29 PM

The new stuff should be AS strong, but I don't know about having it hold fast onto the end of the cable.


Speaking of using knarps - does anyone have photos of how to do this? I have an original "aluminium" caliper on the front, and road style levers on the other end - they both take the small, "road" style (not the barrel style) cable ends. Are these "knarp-able" or should I just take the hit and put a standard steel Raleigh caliper on the front (as it does on the back)?

w1gfh 03-22-11 05:33 PM

I just looked at mine. It's just a split metal tube (similar to an electrician's 'uninsulated butt splice') that's crimped, not soldered. Sorry - wretchedly bad focus.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7107/crimpc.jpg

Amesja 03-22-11 05:56 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Brake knarp.

Attachment 194646

This is an early attempt. It looks much nicer now but this is the pic I have.

Use a spoke nipple cut down a little bit as the "pear shape" above the knarp so that it doesn't slip out of the slot. The original cable end is almost exactly the same shape as a spoke nipple but the nipple is longer. If you don't cut the nipple down a little bit you might have trouble getting the cable out with the available adjustment in the screw so you can take the tire out without deflating it.

Then use a #6 or thereabouts washer under the spoke nipple but above the knarp. The knarp is long and narrow. The original Raleigh cable bottom knob also has a washer on it to do this same thing.

Then put the knarp on. Don't over-tighten the knarp to the point of stripping it. It is just a 4/40 threaded lug -you can't put 50ft/lbs into that poor beast. it'll hold just fine with 10-15.

Treat the caliper just like a regular caliper and put a crimp-on end on the cable.

I think this picture is pre-washer so the knarp is sitting a little bit crooked. I should take a picture of it now. It looks really professional and nobody but a Raleighphile would even notice that it isn't the way it is supposed to be.

wahoonc 03-22-11 06:22 PM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 12396767)
I just looked at mine. It's just a split metal tube (similar to an electrician's 'uninsulated butt splice') that's crimped, not soldered. Sorry - wretchedly bad focus.

Use a small piece of brass tubing, crimped and soldered...do it all the time. I prefer the OEM style cables, but am not willing to pay the price :D

Aaron :)

w1gfh 03-23-11 11:07 AM

OK. I replaced the cracked shift cable housing (68 Sports) today - which entailed snipping the old 'end crimp' from the shift cable, dismantling the works and sliding on the new cable housing, and then installing a new 'end crimp' on the cable. It was a huge PITA. :eek: Not having the exact size tubing handy, I searched high and low for the right sized object to use as a crimp - one that would be small enough to fit inside the threaded cable adjuster barrel - yet large enough to function as a cable stop. I finally used a pin from an old octal-style vacuum tube. Even after I crimped and soldered there was some filing to be done to get it to fit. And of course since my shift cable was now 1/2" shorter I had to adjust the position of the pulley on the seat tube a bit to create more slack. All in all, a success, but next time I may go for the aftermarket gadget with the locknut. ;)

Amesja 03-23-11 03:03 PM

Sucks to have had to move the clamp. Hopefully there isn't too bad of a stained mark where it used to be. I probably wouldn't have thought myself to make the new housing just 1/2" shorter until after I made the crimp & solder. /headsmack. I always think about stuff like that too late.

w1gfh 03-23-11 06:20 PM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 12400905)
Sucks to have had to move the clamp. Hopefully there isn't too bad of a stained mark where it used to be. I probably wouldn't have thought myself to make the new housing just 1/2" shorter until after I made the crimp & solder. /headsmack. I always think about stuff like that too late.

Ended up keeping the seat tube pulley where it was. But I did move the clamp on the top tube back 1/2". A bonus was finding a small section of gold pinstriping hiding beneath it!

The result, all cables now match: white w/grubby beige patina of a mid 60s Raleigh.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5137/...fcefd12390.jpg
White cables

ahson 03-25-11 07:02 AM

If I get a 44t or 48t crank to replace the 46t crank on my Superbe, how big of a difference I will get from it? Not much at all?

Velognome 03-25-11 07:16 AM


If I get a 44t or 48t crank to replace the 46t crank on my Superbe, how big of a difference I will get from it? Not much at all?

If you want to change your gearing why not switch the rear sprocket? it's much easier and there are multiple sizes available.

ahson 03-25-11 07:19 AM


Originally Posted by Velognome (Post 12408902)
If you want to change your gearing why not switch the rear sprocket? it's much easier and there are multiple sizes available.

The truth is my current 46t is in extremely bad shape and needs to be replaced. I have a hard time to source a 46t crank but seeing tons of 44t and 48t available.

Amesja 03-25-11 07:44 AM


Originally Posted by ahson (Post 12408855)
If I get a 44t or 48t crank to replace the 46t crank on my Superbe, how big of a difference I will get from it? Not much at all?

Don't go bigger. The bike is already over-geared. Go with the 44T

Use Sheldon's Gear Calculator to figure out what you have now and how much it will change with different options.

Make sure to fill in all the boxes with the right info: 26 x 1-3/8 - 590 wheels, Crank length 165mm, Gear Inches are the easiest thing to compare for most people, Chainring = Front sprocket teeth, Custom Sprocket = Rear Cog #teeth, Internal Hub = Sturmey Archer 3-speed (AW probably).

Play around with what you have. If you like the over-geared stock ratio and you go down then you will also have to go down on the rear cog to match which might be harder. In that case you will probably need to go with the bigger front chainring and then go with a bigger rear cog too to replicate the stock gearing.

sykerocker 03-25-11 12:16 PM


Originally Posted by Amesja (Post 12396571)
I'm thinking peak tension isn't going to be much more than standing tension even when shifting into first (the most tension) unless the person is hammering on that lever. I don't think the cable itself would be good for more than a hundred or so pounds reliably/safely when new. I wonder how much pressure one could put on that tiny little trigger shifter. Looks like there can't be more than a 2/1 leverage ratio on that trigger from where the cable attaches to it. Maybe say 20lbs max a person could pull on that little thing without actually bringing pain to your hand. It's not like a 4-5" lever on a brake cable where there is more like a 10/1 leverage ratio on the cable.

I think a crimp would hold up pretty well if it were done right. I've seen crimps on conductors that were so durable that when equipment mounting catastrophically failed the fixture ended up hanging from the wire the crimp held the entire crash/drop weight. And that was on copper wire which deforms pretty easily so it's hard to get a crimp to hold a lot of mechanical weight when it is jerked hard.

But I suppose a solder would be best. Some brass or aluminum tubing soldered onto the cable would be exactly like that barrel formed end and would be very strong -especially if you used silver solder.

What you're considering is not all that difficult. If anything, before the mid-60's, that's how you got a cable done for a motorcycle. Dealers would either buy spools of cable and mold both ends, or maybe by universal cables with the disc at the brake/clutch lever end, cut to length and pour the remaining end. The catch is that the motorcycle shop would have molds in the service department, just lay in the cable and melt the lead. This service disappeared by the end of the 60's, unfortunately. I'd love to find an old set of molds to make my own shorter cables for my cafe' racers.

My understanding is that if the newly molded end survived the first tension or two, you were most likely good to go. I don't doubt this would be equally true to bicycle cables, given that you're talking a lot less pressure.

biaddiction 03-26-11 08:27 AM

vintage Pletscher Rear Alloy Bike Rack, model c
anyone knows the model c will fit with a raleigh sports? is it just for older 27" road bike? Thanks!


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