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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

desconhecido 12-02-14 04:32 PM

Oh, one more thing for anyone considering the allegedly bullet proof Schwalbe lead lined tires. They are very tight on Sun CR 18 rims. Installing them resulted in at least one patch job. The CR18 rims are renowned to be hard for tire installation and the Schwalbe Marathon tires, in my experience, are tight in other sizes as well.

agmetal 12-05-14 10:54 AM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 17331936)

I finally picked one of these up last night and gave it a shot this morning...not having much luck, though. FWIW, the whole ball ring is pretty shallow, so it's hard for the punch to get any real purchase on the notches. Suggestions?

Here's the hub in question, side-by-side with a loose one I've been using as a learning tool, so you can see the difference. The loose hub is dated 1963, and the one in the wheel is 1971.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...r/CAM01125.jpg

Salubrious 12-05-14 11:42 AM

I would consider installing the older hub in the wheel. Of course, I'm always looking for an excuse to build up a wheel. The older hubs seem to have a better reputation.

Otherwise, you are either going to have go obtain a tool like this:
The Lake Pepin 3-Speed Tour
take a look at the left-hand column and click on 'parts'

As you can see he does not have it in stock, but at least you know what it looks like.

Or- you are going to have to get a very large screwdriver, engage it in that notch, and bludgeon the race loose.

agmetal 12-05-14 11:56 AM

The older hub has 40 holes, that's why I didn't use it when I built up the new wheel last month.

Dan Burkhart 12-05-14 12:10 PM


Originally Posted by agmetal (Post 17364295)
I finally picked one of these up last night and gave it a shot this morning...not having much luck, though. FWIW, the whole ball ring is pretty shallow, so it's hard for the punch to get any real purchase on the notches. Suggestions?

Here's the hub in question, side-by-side with a loose one I've been using as a learning tool, so you can see the difference. The loose hub is dated 1963, and the one in the wheel is 1971.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...r/CAM01125.jpg

My brass punch method is most effective for the new scalloped notches, although I have used it with the square notches with success. Most people use a flat chisel or screwdriver to drive that type out.

79pmooney 12-05-14 12:17 PM

What the Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub inspired: The Magic Wheels wheelchair wheels. Wheelchair Wheels With Power Assist from Magic Wheels Those wheels have completely different mechanisms but were inspired by the S_A 3 speed.

My dad grew up during the depression. He and his friends as teenagers rode all of New England on 3-speeds, cars being way out of reach. Those bikes saw use and abused as only teenagers can dish out. I heard those stories both from my dad and those lifelong friends. My first geared bike was a 3-speed Dunelt (sp) low end Raleigh. I went on to 10 speeds, sew-ups, racing and fix gears. I had a head injury '77. Winter of '78, I coached an aquantance who had surgetry that cut into her spinal cord to walk on crutches and we stayed close for years.

1993, she had the inevitable surgery to rebuild her back that meant a life on a wheelchair. I visited her 10 days out of the hsopital. Got to watch her struggle to go up a 20' vertical ramp. My first thought? "This is someone in too high a gear!" Then "Why couldn't wheelchairs have an internal geared hub like a S-A? That led to a patent with U of Washington, then the inventor of the SonicCare toothbrush seeing that patent and pursuing it. A decade+ later, the Magic Wheel was debuted.

I've tooled around on them. They are a lot of fun. While I was working with the university I got my hands on a wheelchair and rollled around my moderately hilly neighborhood so I knew first hand how hard wheelchairs are. The 2:1 low gear is a real benefit!

If you know of anyone in for a lifetime on a wheelchair, suggest these as a spare set if nothing else, so when injury or sickness happens, thay can pull these wheels out and continue life. Just like running your fix gear on a bigger cog until you get stronger. (These wheels are interchangeable with the existing wheels and no wider so there will not be door issues. Also quick-release so in and out of cars is simple. And as light as you can make a geared hub. They were conceived by an ex-bike racer after all.)

And, yes I do have a financial interest here. Sales might get me a dollar or two before I die. My stake is $12,000 out of my pocket and I own a few shares of Magic wheels. That pales beside my passion to see these in use. The struggel I witnessed 20 years ago is burned into my brain.

Ben

nlerner 12-05-14 12:46 PM

^ That's awesome work, Ben.

agmetal 12-05-14 01:40 PM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 17364594)
My brass punch method is most effective for the new scalloped notches, although I have used it with the square notches with success. Most people use a flat chisel or screwdriver to drive that type out.

Damn, wish I'd realized this before I spent the money on a punch. For some reason I had it in my head that a chisel was somehow a bad idea, and never used one of the ones I had around until reading this. It worked quickly and effectively! After opening up both hubs and comparing side by side, the only notable difference I could see was some wear on the low gear pawls of the hub I've been riding, more than was the case with the loose hub. I swapped pawls between the hubs, and I'll give it a shot later to see if that helps. One thing I noticed is that the scraping sound I've heard in second gear doesn't always start until I'm a couple miles into a ride...but if it's not those pawls, I really don't know what could be causing it.

JohnDThompson 12-05-14 02:18 PM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 17364594)
My brass punch method is most effective for the new scalloped notches

There is a proper tool available for those:

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/pr...r-IMG31629.jpg

Buy Sturmey Archer Sturmey Archer HTR 145 Classic Ball Ring Spanner from SJS Cycles, fast delivery for the UK - 24.99

Dan Burkhart 12-05-14 02:30 PM


Originally Posted by agmetal (Post 17364893)
Damn, wish I'd realized this before I spent the money on a punch. For some reason I had it in my head that a chisel was somehow a bad idea, and never used one of the ones I had around until reading this. It worked quickly and effectively! After opening up both hubs and comparing side by side, the only notable difference I could see was some wear on the low gear pawls of the hub I've been riding, more than was the case with the loose hub. I swapped pawls between the hubs, and I'll give it a shot later to see if that helps. One thing I noticed is that the scraping sound I've heard in second gear doesn't always start until I'm a couple miles into a ride...but if it's not those pawls, I really don't know what could be causing it.

I apologize if I led you down the wrong track there, but I'm sure you'll find other uses for your new brass punch. They are handy to have around.

agmetal 12-05-14 04:47 PM

Interesting observation with my scraping sound...when coasting, it's affected by the position of the cranks (and therefore phase of the two pairs of pawls). It does this in all gears while coasting, but only second while pedaling. This is after swapping the slightly worn-looking pawls from the hub in use, out for the better-looking ones from the loose hub.

noglider 12-05-14 04:59 PM

Is it possible that you have grit that you didn't see?

Ben, thanks for the story. It's heart warming.

markk900 12-05-14 05:23 PM

Try taking the dust cap off from under the sprocket....on one of my hubs I found it made a large amount of mildly scraping noises....I actually forgot to put it back on one time and the noise went away. Now I have the dilemma of put it back and have it be noisy, or leave it off.....

gna 12-05-14 09:55 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 17364481)
I would consider installing the older hub in the wheel. Of course, I'm always looking for an excuse to build up a wheel. The older hubs seem to have a better reputation.

Otherwise, you are either going to have go obtain a tool like this:
The Lake Pepin 3-Speed Tour
take a look at the left-hand column and click on 'parts'

As you can see he does not have it in stock, but at least you know what it looks like.

Or- you are going to have to get a very large screwdriver, engage it in that notch, and bludgeon the race loose.

Send Jon an email--he may have some in stock.

I use an old flat-blade screwdriver. Seems to stay in the notch (mostly).

gna 12-05-14 09:56 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 17365495)
Try taking the dust cap off from under the sprocket....on one of my hubs I found it made a large amount of mildly scraping noises....I actually forgot to put it back on one time and the noise went away. Now I have the dilemma of put it back and have it be noisy, or leave it off.....

Just wait for oil to leak out and lubricate it.

JohnDThompson 12-05-14 10:16 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 17364481)
Otherwise, you are either going to have go obtain a tool like this:
The Lake Pepin 3-Speed Tour
take a look at the left-hand column and click on 'parts'

As you can see he does not have it in stock, but at least you know what it looks like.

I have this tool, and to be honest, in my experience it isn't any more effective than using a hammer and punch.

Narhay 12-06-14 12:23 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 17365495)
Try taking the dust cap off from under the sprocket....on one of my hubs I found it made a large amount of mildly scraping noises....I actually forgot to put it back on one time and the noise went away. Now I have the dilemma of put it back and have it be noisy, or leave it off.....

I had a noisy scraping hub at some parts of the rotation and couldn't tighten the cones without it making noise until I removed the dust cap and cleaned it. There was quite a bit of buildup under there. Put it back on and it has been nice and quiet ever since with properly adjusted cones.

Dan Burkhart 12-06-14 06:53 AM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 17366150)
I have this tool, and to be honest, in my experience it isn't any more effective than using a hammer and punch.

I have one too, and I agree with you assessment. One of my customers gave it to me. I'm glad I didn't shell out for it.

agmetal 12-06-14 09:53 AM


Originally Posted by Narhay (Post 17366313)
I had a noisy scraping hub at some parts of the rotation and couldn't tighten the cones without it making noise until I removed the dust cap and cleaned it. There was quite a bit of buildup under there. Put it back on and it has been nice and quiet ever since with properly adjusted cones.

I'll check this out the next time I have an opportunity to take a good look at it. I don't feel like this would explain the fact that the scraping-while-pedaling part only comes up in the direct drive gear, though. I've been trying to think through what parts only move when pedaling, and I'm having some difficulty visualizing it.

michaelz28 12-06-14 10:10 PM

4 Attachment(s)
picked up a 74 sports ..http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=421541http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=421542http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=421543http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=421544

JBC353 12-07-14 09:32 AM


Originally Posted by agmetal (Post 17366870)
I'll check this out the next time I have an opportunity to take a good look at it. I don't feel like this would explain the fact that the scraping-while-pedaling part only comes up in the direct drive gear, though. I've been trying to think through what parts only move when pedaling, and I'm having some difficulty visualizing it.

My '69 DL1 makes a scraping noise when coasting. There are scuff marks inside the hub shell where it looks like the gear ring is dragging very lightly on one spot.

agmetal 12-07-14 11:29 PM

I popped it open again tonight...didn't see any real wear spots inside the hub shell, but I gave it a bit more thorough of a cleaning than I've done with this hub so far. Interesting note: the '71 hub had no dustcover behind the cog, which I hadn't noticed before...the '63 did. I ended up moving the dustcover to the '71, so we'll see if that does anything. I also noticed a fair amount of dirt and other particulate on various internal surfaces, including the bearings and planet cage, so I gave those a good wipe down as well. Reassembled and re-lubed it all, but haven't had a chance to test ride yet. Hopefully the ride to work in the morning goes well!

Also noticed a little bit of wear on the clutch...nothing really bad, and I haven't had too many clutch related problems, but I swapped it for the '63 hub's clutch since that looked to be in slightly better shape. How much wear is ok before it needs to be replaced?

canrock 12-08-14 01:24 AM

Yes, they are!

markk900 12-08-14 06:17 AM

You guys made me feel guilty about leaving off the dust cover so I did some cleaning and adjusting last night; cover back on, hub clean, no unusual noises so I am happy. Decided to true the back wheel as well since it had a small warp to it.

As to the clutch, I am not an expert but it simply slides to engage and disengage the pawls so I doubt there is much there to wear out or worry about.

noglider 12-08-14 06:50 AM

[MENTION=77155]markk900[/MENTION], no, the clutch is a wear item. It can require replacement from wear, but I'm not an expert on when. I'd say when it causes a problem.


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