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San Rensho 05-09-11 12:59 PM


Originally Posted by mkadam68 (Post 12296921)
Hi--follow this thread when I can (sure I missed a few points here & there).

New to tubulars, looking to pick up some tires. These would be used exclusively for racing: criteriums mostly with a smattering of time trials thrown in. So I need them to hold up in the corners and not roll (I hate crashing at speed!). But, I'm probably a Cat 3 for life so I don't need the same tires as Lance & Fabian. They'll be going on some deep-rim carbon hoops. I have a friend who will show me how to glue 'em up.

Question:
  1. I'm leaning on getting Vittoria Corsa Evo CX and they're listed as 700x21. Are these somewhat equivalent to the Michelin Pro3Race 700x23 clinchers I currently ride?
  2. I've heard some interesting things about vulcanized/non-vulcanized. Is this something I need to worry about "in this day & age"? Do I need to worry about this with the Vittoria's?
  3. Are there alternative tires that may be less expensive but still perform well and safely in the races?

If you are going to race crits, try a wide tire, 23-25 mm range. You get better traction with a wider tire, which means being able to go faster around corners, which is what crits are all about.

rize 06-10-11 08:07 AM

Hello,
I recently purchased Tufo's tubular "hi-composite-carbon" tire. In the past I had good results with Tufo s33 Special and s3-Lite tires using the Tufo tape. This time, I wanted to try traditional rim glue - just playing with fire :-).

I used Wolber rim cement - a French product I bought on eBay. Not sure how old the product is. The tube's packaging doesn't seem it's left over from the 60's or 70's. Wolber's instructions are very brief, "apply even coat and wait at least 15 minutes. Reapply a thin bead on rim bed right before tire installation to make centering easier. Wait for 24 hours for complete adhesion." I applied an even coat to rim and base-tape waited 30 minutes. I applied a 2nd layer and waited another 30 minutes. Both rim and base-tape felt a bit sticky, I probably should have waited longer for that 'tacky' feel. Before the gluing process, the tire was reasonably stretched enough that I could get it on the rim without much effort. After glue was applied, it took more effort to install the tire - it seemed like the tire shrunk in diameter.

After installation I inflated to 140 PSI and let it sit for more than 24 hours. I deflated the tire to check proper adhesion and it was a complete failure. It took hardly any effort to pull the tire off the rim. My first gluing experience so I'm not surprised - probably committed several errors.

After the gluing process on 1 rim & tire, I still had 1/2 of the 27 gm tube. I heard some people use as much as 1 complete tube per wheel. So amount of glue I used is suspect.
My other mistake may be the time I allowed for curing before tire installation but I waited longer than 15 minutes as advised.

After a botched gluing attempt, can this tire still be safely mounted using rim-glue or Tufo tape?

Maybe some glue works better with Tufo's base tape than others. Thank you in advance if anyone can comment.

lotek 06-10-11 08:34 AM

I have some old tubes of Wolber glue laying around, but I don't think I'd use it. Wolber hasn't been in the tubular market for well over
10 years.
I usually use about 3/4 a tube per wheel. Might be excessive but I've never rolled a tire.
In answer to your last question, generally when I glue a rim I don't bother doing much more than knocking
off some of the excess glue on the rim, and I have put additional coats on the tire also. That said, I'm told
some glues don't work well together, but can't say I've had any experience with that.
There's a very good video done by one of the guys in the Racing or Road forum, I'll see if I
can get a link to it and put it in this thread.

Marty

Ex Pres 06-10-11 08:44 AM

You said you waited 30 minutes after second layer, but I didn't read that you applied a re-coat to the rim only right before installing the tire.

Lots of glue is not your answer, but it does need to cover the entire amount of where the tire contacts the rim.

If you did do a re-apply, then possibly your glue is past its prime.

Bianchigirll 06-10-11 09:08 AM

you did take the old tape off the rim yes? was this the first time you ever used glue on these rims?

I would think you need to remove all the adhesive from the tape completely. then use some denatured alcohol to clean the rims. put a nice base coat and let it sit for a few days. the glue the tire one. I also agree on not using that old glue, you don't know where it has been. also I know alot of guys do put some glue on the tire but I never have, and have no issues.

after you glued the tires on hwere did you store them? if they were in a hot enviroment like a garage or storage area the glue was likey too hot to set up.

gaucho777 06-10-11 09:24 AM

^+1. You say you waited another 30 minutes after re-applyng a second layer/bead. However, the instructions do not say to wait again after reapplying the small bead, but to apply the small bead immediately before mounting tire.

Also, what type of rim are you using? I've only ever used alloy rims, but I know there is a different kind of tubular glue specifically for carbon rims.

due ruote 09-15-11 12:40 PM

Reviving this old thread with a base tape question. I have 1/2 dozen or so old tubulars that all hold air but are losing their base tape to one extent or another. Most of what I've read about reattaching base tape says latex, but I've had no luck with that method. Has anyone had success with contact cement or some other adhesive? I suppose I could use tire glue but that might be too tenacious. Nothing against Tirealert, but I don't think this pile warrants the cost. I'm just looking to get these to the point where I can use them as credible spares.

rootboy 10-13-11 08:12 AM


Originally Posted by due ruote (Post 13230965)
Reviving this old thread with a base tape question. I have 1/2 dozen or so old tubulars that all hold air but are losing their base tape to one extent or another. Most of what I've read about reattaching base tape says latex, but I've had no luck with that method. Has anyone had success with contact cement or some other adhesive? I suppose I could use tire glue but that might be too tenacious. Nothing against Tirealert, but I don't think this pile warrants the cost. I'm just looking to get these to the point where I can use them as credible spares.

This is an old thread, but, not sure anyone answered this query Due Route. Maybe ? I find latex ill-suited. I've had better luck using contact cement. I believe rim cement is, though not sure, just a form of rim cement. It is tenacious stuff. I use Weldwood. Just a thin coat seems to work well for re-adhering base tape.

SJX426 10-13-11 10:26 AM

due ruote, I have the same question! I was about to try Latex approach too. Disappointed that it did not work. I think the problem is the surface condition prior to application. I have tired contact cement as well with very little success. The edges always pull up. I tried using rim cement too but it is not strong enough and when you pull the tire, half of the base tape sticks to the rim.

I am at the point where I am wondering if there is any ROI in the effort. If someone comes up with a method and material that works, yes I will do it.

rootboy 10-13-11 10:37 AM

The only problem I've found with contact cement is that if you use it as it's designed to be used, letting it dry for ten minutes on both surfaces before sticking them together, you have to be VERY careful when you do apply the tape to the tire casing. Once it sticks, it's stuck. But you're right, it is all dependent on the substrate it's mounting to and how "clean" it is. I wonder if 3M fastack, or whatever it's called, would work better.

GrayJay 10-13-11 12:56 PM

For adhering loose basetape back onto the carcass (or for use when repairing flats), I have had good results using a latex based fabric repair glue such as; http://www.tearmender.com/index.php
THe resulting bond was significantly stronger than could be achieved with regular tire/rim glue.

On the subject of fasttack, I have used it for securing dozens of tires for road & crit racing and I dont believe I ever suffered a roll off or noticed that it harmed the basetape. THe main solvent in fasttack is hexane which is not terribly harsh (to the tire or to your body) in comparisons to some other solvents such as MEK or chlorinated solvents. Great arcticle comparing the bond strength of various glues (including fasttack) is at; http://cnl.salk.edu/~jorge/xfer/Tubu...icePart1-4.pdf THis arcticle definitly convinced me to go buy a big can of vittoria mastic one (not thier gutta formulation) for gluing CX tubulars.
Interesting to note that they determined that the bond for carbon rims/tire is approx 30% weaker than for alu rims, no wonder the Cyclocross riders I see trying to use carbon rims seem to roll tires more oftern.

The only time I ever suffered a tubie roll-off during road racing was using nearly new wolber SP1 tires (with wolber glue). The basetape on the SP1's was a very poor bond to the tire, they used some sort of glue from the factory that stayed somewhat tacky and was not strong enough. Entering the final turn of a crit that I was setup to win, the tires rolled off the basetape and sent me flying off the road covered with roadrash. I never used another SP1 after that!

Dawes-man 12-25-11 09:56 PM

I've been thinking about tubular tyres these past few days and after a pointer from fellow C&V member Road Fan, and a few searches, found this excellent thread. I'm relatively new to tubular tyres and thought maybe my experiences would be useful to other tubular-newbies.

I decided to try tubular tyres for 2 reasons. When I had finished building my first bike English lightweight from the 1950s, a 1950 Hetchins, I had 2 clincher tyres burst off the rim, due to the rims of that period lacking the retaining bead of more modern clincher rims, and me not knowing that and pumping the tyres up too high. The other reason was the very limited choice in clincher tyres for 32/40 hole, 27" rims, the size of all high quality clincher rims in the UK at the time. Going to sprint rims, as tubular rims are known in the UK, I could enjoy narrower tyres and modern, higher pressures.

The first tubulars I bought were Vittoria Rally, chosen due to their low price and because I'd used Vittoria Rubino Pro clinchers on another machine and been very happy with them. Vittoria clinchers here sell from between $16 and $88 so the Rubino Pro at $50 is about mid-level. The first thing I noticed about tubulars was the huge price range, from the Rally at $26 to a Hutchinson at an extreme $605. For clinchers it's from $12 to $100.

With the Vittoria Rally I found they worked fine, and the higher pressure possible and narrower gauge was fantastic. They were also much lighter and generally improved the handling of the bike but I found it hard to mount them straight on the rim as the tread seemed to wave from side to side. I also noticed that the tape around the valve was thicker than round the rest of the tyre and made that part of the tyre stick out slightly. The tape also has a tendency to separate from the tyre around the rim. I took all this to be due to my inexperience and decided that 'tubular tyres must just do that' .

I then chanced to try a pair of Soyo Pro-fessional [sic] tubulars, which cost about $40 and were horrible. In no time at all the tape started separating from the tyre all around the edge. I tried sticking it back but gave up. The tread then started separating from the sidewall so I removed them and threw them away, replacing them with a pair of black walled Vittoria Rally.

I then happened across some Gommitalia Champion tubulars which looked, to my in-expert eye, quite 'good' so I got a pair. I found them easier to get straight on the rim and they hold air better than the Vittoria Rally. These are a bit more expensive than the Rally, at $35, but they still suffer from the tape separating from the tyre around the rim, although nowhere nearly as badly as the Soyo and less so than the Rally.

Most recently, following another thread on tubular tyres, and thanks to an excellent post by Road Fan in answer to my question about the differences between cheap and expensive tubulars, I have become interested in trying out the latter. I am now thinking about getting a pair of Vittoria Corsa Evo CX2 in 23mm, a pair of Michelin Service Course in 24mm or a pair of Veloflex Roubaix in 24mm - these will be for my go-anywhere, rain or shine Dawes Atlantis, presently on clinchers.

I'm sold on tubulars. The only disadvantage I can think of is the extra hassle of carrying a spare in case of a puncture rather than a small puncture repair kit and tyre levers. For that reason, I'll probably stay with clinchers for my touring bike, an old Peugeot. That said, in 4 years of using tubulars on 2 bikes I've never had a puncture whereas I've had several with clinchers. For me, tubular tyres on my older machines is really the only choice.

I use Miyata TTP-1 tape and have never used (daunting to me) glue. I would worry about getting it everywhere and ending up sticking the tyre on off-centre. I find it quite a struggle getting tyres off with the tape. Once I get about 6" of the tyre off, though, it's pretty easy.

Lastly, a simple question: when you talk about rolling resistance, do you mean from side to side, as in leaning while cornering, or do you mean in the direction of travel of the wheels? I've always thought it was the former but now think it might be the latter.

auchencrow 12-25-11 10:34 PM

Hi Dawes-man!

I just installed a pair of tubulars (Rally's) on my most recent project, and have to say I am quite pleased with them. In part becauuse of the shape and high pressure, there is little rolling resistance (in the forward direction) and they are quick in turns and terrific on the flats.
- BUT over the spread-eagled expansion joints and such, they're not not the best, so on a long tour I'd opt for Paselas.

Also - I've had my share of flats, so I would recommend you invest in some of rootboy's tire savers.
They add a nice visual touch, but with tubulars, I think they are essential. They give me the confidence to ride practically anywhere.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...p12-19-115.jpg

ultraman6970 12-25-11 11:21 PM

Havent seen one of those contraptions in a while, we used to put electrical tape really close to the tubular surface, when u puncture you puncture in the second turn thats why the contraption goes in that position.

As for the flats. Well u have to be lucky anyways, have been years w/o a single flat and sometimes in a month u bust like 5 tires like nothing. My 1st rule to do not get flats is not put too much air in the tubulars, people have the bad habit to read the maximum inflation rate and they just put that to them right away. In another thread a guy was complaining that the tubular was too hard and was easy to get flats at 210 psi. DUH!!... so if the tubular says can take whatever ratio of air pressure doesn't mean you have to put that, with 80 to 110 is more than enough, the tubular needs to flex a tiny bit too.

As for brands in like 30 years using tubulars never gotten success using vitorria rally tubulars. From the cheappo stuff i have used and that are pretty descent, the 3x50 bucks from yellow jersey are fantastic, even a so so clincher tire can go 60 bucks the unit. So far I have not puncture one of those cheappo ones yet, better construction than the vittoria as well. Weight a tiny bit more but are 21 mm, replaceable valve and stuff, can't stop being super happy with them.

Have another advice regarding air pressure but i wont say anything, you guys don't respect old timers :D

Cya ;D

ultraman6970 12-25-11 11:38 PM

1st time i hear this :)


Originally Posted by San Rensho (Post 12617782)
If you are going to race crits, try a wide tire, 23-25 mm range. You get better traction with a wider tire, which means being able to go faster around corners, which is what crits are all about.


Dawes-man 12-26-11 12:54 AM

Thanks for the rolling info, Auchencrow! The first thing I noticed about tubulars was how they 'lightened' the bike... so that's why.

Those tyre-savers of rootboys are very nice and simple. Do they make a noise?

In answer to ultraman6970, I did touch wood when I said I hadn't had a puncture with tubulars and I'm sure you're right and that we have to be lucky :)

Captain Blight 12-26-11 01:10 AM

So, I'm patching my first tubular. I've got as far as patching the hole in the tube and booting the hole; for the boot, I used a piece off a pair of old khaki Dockers that I soaked in TireLife,which I laid in the tire after I swabbed the inside around the hole in TireLife as well, and then I laid in a larger cloth patch, dry, between the rubberized patch and the tube. Ya folla?

The hole is ~1mm, the boot is about an inch long and half an inch wide; the larger dry patch is very slightly larger. So, two questions:

Will this boot work? And, What should I do when re-stitching? I have the Velox patch kit, so I have the proper needle (Sailmaker's needle, of all things!) and thread. How much tension should I keep on the re-stitch, and do I need to use the same interlocking stitch pattern?

mazdaspeed 12-26-11 01:32 AM

This thread is a wealth of info. I'm going to build my first wheel then install tubies for the first time here pretty soon, should be interesting. Thanks to everyone that's contributed.

Road Fan 12-26-11 06:49 AM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 13640517)
Thanks for the rolling info, Auchencrow! The first thing I noticed about tubulars was how they 'lightened' the bike... so that's why.

Those tyre-savers of rootboys are very nice and simple. Do they make a noise?

In answer to ultraman6970, I did touch wood when I said I hadn't had a puncture with tubulars and I'm sure you're right and that we have to be lucky :)

Hi, Dawes-man! I'm really glad you found this and are finding it useful.

Let me chime in a little bit:

Those old Tire-Savers go back to the late '60s, at least. First time I used them I went for an entire summer (1970) with no flats, on Chicago roads strewn with glass and all manner of other cr-p. Second summer I had flats - go figger. My philosophy today:

clean my nose
carry a four-leaf clover
learn how to ride in the drops with all available pairs of fingers crossed
watch out for fields of glass
don't get too close to the actual curb
don't use the thinnest, narrowest, and lightest tires
don't fill them up past about 110 psi unless the roads will be rough
watch out for road roughness, protect the rims by not riding through the rough stuff.

For that reason and the fact they do make noise, I don't use them anymore. Besides, I don't think they should be installed between the caliper and the frame, rather between the caliper clamp nut and the frame. Hence they are only usable on bikes drilled for nutted brakes, not recessed. If all these problems did not exist, I'd say they should give equal benefit for light clinchers as well as tubulars.

Regarding base tapes pulling, I really don't think it matters. I've never had a tire separate from its base tape while riding. The tires are slightly undersized for the rim, which is why it can be a pain to install a tire. This tension tends to hold the tire on the rim and the base tape to the carcass except at the free edges. The tension is increased when you inflate the tire. In my opinion tubulars should be kept inflated constantly if possible. I see no ill effects from having done so.

I'd love to hear ultraman's thoughts on tire inflation. I've found that with whippersnappers around here, that after you've told them to get off the lawn a few times and they haven't, just start talking. They might catch some of what you're pitching.

Touring on sewups: I have done so but ran out of spares. Not repeated, unless I can find a good place to cut and sew in the field.

Road Fan 12-26-11 07:18 AM


Originally Posted by Captain Blight (Post 13640530)
So, I'm patching my first tubular. I've got as far as patching the hole in the tube and booting the hole; for the boot, I used a piece off a pair of old khaki Dockers that I soaked in TireLife,which I laid in the tire after I swabbed the inside around the hole in TireLife as well, and then I laid in a larger cloth patch, dry, between the rubberized patch and the tube. Ya folla?

The hole is ~1mm, the boot is about an inch long and half an inch wide; the larger dry patch is very slightly larger. So, two questions:

Will this boot work? And, What should I do when re-stitching? I have the Velox patch kit, so I have the proper needle (Sailmaker's needle, of all things!) and thread. How much tension should I keep on the re-stitch, and do I need to use the same interlocking stitch pattern?

I haven't done much booting (any? perhaps not), so I couldn't say anything about minimum boot requirements, such a the minimum hole that needs a boot, or the minimum size of a boot. Seems to me you want to provide a barrier that prevents the tube from "herniating" out through the hole in the casing under high pressure, and to limit the effects of any carcass fraying inside the tire. Any breach in the integrity of the carcass is a place where the tension caused by inflation pressure cannot be contained by the original carcass. The boot material should "carry" tension across the hole as well as retain the tube inside. I think your choice of materials and of two layers is certainly decent. I've heard of using leaves, dollar bills, Tyvek scraps, and the stuff in the Velox kit, of course. I could imagine a lump considering the multiple layers, but you can always open the tire up and re-boot it if you have a problem. I've sewn the same tire at the same place multiple times in the past. If you run the needle through the factory holes, you won't get a wobbly tire and won't be weakening it by cutting new holes.

Sewing tension: I'd say pretty high, and make sure the stitch is locked. The surface tension of the carcass is carried across the seam by the thread, not the the base tape or any internal buffer layers. You don't want the tire seam to have a gap where the repair was - the finished tire will bulge and it may not contain the tube. Any roughness presented to the tube surface can lead to it being breached due to abrasion, as the miles pile up.

When you're done, INCREMENTALLY reinflate the tire, being sure to check that the leak is actually stopped, that the shape is not distorted, and that the shape is stable. If the leak persists or the shape is not good, it is possible to just pull it apart and re-do it. It's how we learn, and how we stay safe. And if the boot or seam is not holding (have never had a seam failure, but there's a first time for everything), you'll catch it before you're out on the road. Better she blows when you are not on a 50 mph descent in the Rockies with a sheer drop at road edge.

Needles/threads: I looked for a good replacement for my Velox needle and found upholsterer's needles. Better than those I like a Speedy-Stitcher, essentially a modernization of the sailmakers' awl, which must be a tool from antiquity - sail-powered navies from the times of the ancient Phoenicians up to the last clippers in the '30s must have used a similar hand tool to maintain sails. I took a bit of Velox thread to a local industrial sewing shop and selected a thread and a needle with a big enough hole and that would fit the Speedy-Stitcher's hole. Sadly I lost the thread and will have to do it all over next time I get a flat.

I think my needle might be different from the original Velox, but I'm happy with it. Lot's of engineering has gone into both upholstery sewing and sailmaking. Sailmaking is probably a better model of tubular tire sewing, since both have high tension across the seam when used for vehicle propulsion. When I go do it again, I might have to research sailmaking.

Road Fan 12-26-11 07:28 AM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 13640303)
I've been thinking about tubular tyres these past few days ...

Lastly, a simple question: when you talk about rolling resistance, do you mean from side to side, as in leaning while cornering, or do you mean in the direction of travel of the wheels? I've always thought it was the former but now think it might be the latter.

Rolling resistance refers to the rolling parts of a machine (tires, bearings, et cetera) having friction or other non-aerodynamic energy loss. This energy loss is in the direction of travel and represents a force that impedes forward motion. Any resistance or drag consumes a portion of the power you deliver to the pedals as you ride. You should actualy be able to go a bit faster with reduced rolling resistance. Testing this is not easy.

Conventionally it has been thought that thinner tires always have less rolling resistance than wider tires. Later research suggests that this is true on very smooth paths, such as clean, well-surfaced race tracks or train rail surfaces. A railroad train wheel, being all steel, would be the ultimate example of this. Bikes however run on real roads, which vary from fantastically good to "paved motocross" status, to just plain unpaved. Many riders think that for the real world a wider tire is a better choice. On my Mondonico I'm using Challenge Paris-Roubaix tubulars, 27 mm wide and handmade. I think you're on the right track looking for some 24 mm tires. I don't think I can feel if the rolling resistance is less, but I can feel the ride is better. I certainly can't test efficiency to my own satisfaction.

auchencrow 12-26-11 08:17 AM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 13640517)
....
Those tyre-savers of rootboys are very nice and simple. Do they make a noise?....

They're spelled "TIRE savers" here in the colonies, old chap! ;)

They do make a slight noise, dependent in part on the tire's tread design:
Set correctly (and assuming a round wheel) they are just barely touching the tire, so it is not very loud.
I find it pleasant (and reassuring) on the Vittorias.

Dawes-man 12-26-11 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by auchencrow (Post 13640928)
They're spelled "TIRE savers" here in the colonies, old chap! ;)

They do make a slight noise, dependent in part on the tire's tread design:
Set correctly (and assuming a round wheel) they are just barely touching the tire, so it is not very loud.
I find it pleasant (and reassuring) on the Vittorias.

Sorry Auchencrow, you've lost me there... what are these 'tires' things you mention?

I can understand the reassurance thing, though. The steering wheel on the pre-1974 Porsche 911 oscillates and is regarded as very reassuring.

I have to say, as nicely made and pleasing to the eye those, er, savers look, I remain unconvinced of their necessity with tubular ty...i...ers. Anyone else convinced?

auchencrow 12-26-11 10:18 AM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 13641051)
... Anyone else convinced?

Dawes-man -

Not too long ago, I met an oldster selling a tubular tired (tyred) PX10, which he had ridden for nearly 40 years in the city of Detroit.
He swore that tire savers allowed him to ride virtually trouble free the whole time.

His bike must have had a million miles on it: Few parts other than the frame were original, and it was on its second paint job, and still - practically every surface of it was literally worn smooth from constant daily use. (I had never seen a bike so well-used before or since.)

I am sure you'll get different opinions from different folks here, but HE was convinced of the merit of tire savers, and I considered his a pretty potent endorsement.

rootboy 12-26-11 11:12 AM

I remain convinced. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone to the trouble to try to make myself a pair after all these years. I rode thousands of miles on my old PX-10 back in the early seventies, with tire savers, and I believe they helped prevent flats. I still flatted my tubulars once in a while, maybe thrice in all those miles, but I think they helped. But then, one could consider me a tad biased since I'm making them for sale now. There's no empirical evidence that they actually prevent flats, but that's not the point, in my opinion. My faith might be mis-place, but that's OK with me. I'm going to try everything I can to avoid having to rip open the stitching on an expensive tubular tire and repair a flat. I think they help me in that goal. By the way Dawes-man, if you are a Brit, the proper name for these gizmos is Thorn Catchers. ;)


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