Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Classic & Vintage (https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=181)
-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

sykerocker 01-08-21 06:54 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 21859100)
I am on the eastern shore (Salisbury), about 3 1/2 hours from Wesminster.

Not that far away from where I'm at. It'd finally given me the excuse to do the bay bridge and tunnel for a day's drive. 23 years living down here and I've yet to drive on it.

sykerocker 01-08-21 06:57 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 21868572)
1957 is the last year of BSA bicycles before Raleigh bought them out. But a 1958 still has all the BSA logos on it.

There were a couple of BSA bicycles around the vintage British motorcycle group I've done shows with (it's the mark of a real BSA collector to have at least one bicycle to go along with all the motorcycles), and I've always been under the impression that those were a bit newer than late 50's. Didn't Raleigh keep the brand going for a few years after they bought it?

sykerocker 01-08-21 07:00 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 21867849)
A small set of Whitworth wrenches is probably a good investment if you are really going to get into older english bikes.

Definitely. Happily I had my set from my Triumph motorcycle days, and they were among the few tools I saved from the fire. Unfortunately, I lost the Whitworth sockets. If you're looking for a set, just hit any website that deals in vintage Triumph/BSA/Norton motorcycle parts, they'll always have a decent inexpensive set in the catalog.

2fat2fly 01-09-21 10:36 AM

I've got a partial set of Whitworth wrenches here from back when I owned couple of older Jaguar Mk 1 sedans back in the day.
So far most of the hardware seems to be SAE, but the headset nut for example is somewhere between 1 1/8" and 1 3/16 or 30 mm. 1 1/8" won't fit, 1 3/16 is too big to even catch the corner of the nut. 30mm is slighty larger than 1 3/16" and somewhere between 5/8" and 11/16" Whitworth. If I remember right, there were a few other wrench standards in England too over the years. I went through my whole assortment of wrenches and nothing fit. So,in other words, it takes an adjustable wrench.

I spent an hour getting the bars and headset all apart this morning. I ended up clamping two long boards across the fork crown and using the largest adjustable wrench I had to get the headset top nut to break loose. When it did, I saw nothing that was holding it so tight other than just torque. It wasn't rusted, and I didn't see any loctite on the threads. I even heated it up with a propane torch a bit. I did gauge the forks afterwards, the left blade was bent outward about 1/2" from true, most likely from the speedometer drive they had rigged on the left side of the axle. I tweaked the forks back where they should be to fit a common 100mm hub.
I soaked the rust off the front caliper, brake lever, and headset bits, replaced all the bearings and cleaned up the bars and stem.
I need to find a proper handle bar clamp bolt, the 3" long carriage bolt they had in there had to go. The bars cleaned up but aren't super shiny, the chrome is a bit hazy looking. The brake lever is a mess, more bare metal than chrome, what chrome is left is peeling off and sharp.

The paint on the forks wasn't as bad as it looked, the rust that was on it seemed to just rub off. I think it was mostly deposited there from the rusty headlight they had on it. I soaked it in Evapo-rust for an hour and gave it a coat of wax and its all black again. The fender is still soaking. Both fenders are twisted, dented, and severely rusted.
Most of the rusty spots on the frame wiped clean just like the fork did, what looked like pure rust wiped away after soaking with Evapo-rust.
So far the list of parts I need to hunt down are one new crank cotter, a handlebar clamp bolt, a new rear wheel with a three speed hub, and new screws for the brake lever, both have stripped out flat screwdriver slots.

I looked at a Hercules for sale locally for $25 that the seller said had two good wheels but when I got there I found both rims had a 9" or so section of severe rust as if they sat in the dirt for years, plus the rear rim had a dent and flat spot, and the hub which was dated 1965, was partially locked up and appeared to have a broken axle. Nothing else on the bike was any better than what I already have.
I looked at a slightly newer Robin Hood too, another bike that supposedly had good wheels, when I applied the rear brakes hard the side of the rim collapsed inward leaving a dent in the side of the rim matching the brake pad. All I can figure is that the rim was badly rusted on the inside somehow, I had never seen that happen before.
I can't believe how hard it is to find a pair of good steel rims for one of these. Back in the day these always seemed to be some of the toughest rims out there. All I find now is rusted, bent and worn rims. So far, every thing I've looked at has had rims in worse shape than what is on this bike now, at least what I have is solid and still round.

56ford 01-09-21 10:44 AM

Good price for this late 60’s Raleigh DL-1 in Louisville, KY. I would go get it myself but it appears to be a 24” frame and me being 5’-8” it would not work for me...

https://louisville.craigslist.org/bi...254407290.html

markk900 01-09-21 12:19 PM

2fat2fly For sure I use a big adjustable on the headset nut; no point in a tool for that one job when an adjustable has other uses.....For my English bikes I pretty much get by with a 5/16W, a 3/8W (both combo wrenches) and the occasional use of the 1/8W and 3/16W open ended....plus the big adjustable.....Haven't often needed anything else. Oh yeah, cone wrenches....

sykerocker Mine came from my BSA days!

stevel610 01-09-21 12:34 PM

Humber
 
I am looking to get the Humber I asked about a month or so ago to someone who can appreciate it. I have it listed for sale in that section of the forum. While I put $200 as the price tag, I am really just looking to make room in the shed and prevent an antique from being trashed, so I would listen to anything half way reasonable. If they are not in the Philadelphia area, I will take that they will have to have it shipped into consideration.

If you know of anyone who would be interested, please pass along. Thanks!

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2082c0e4bd.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...49a66989e9.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ceee091be4.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...df376d79f2.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...111cb45635.jpg

jamesdak 01-09-21 01:10 PM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21867773)
The one thing in the back of mind as I work on this bike is that I'm going to have a ton of hours into a bike that'll never be worth a fraction of the time I've got into it. The bike itself isn't bad, its just severely cosmetically challenged due to being left out in the weather for so long.

So, so true! I put hundreds into a AMF Hercules a couple of years back not counting my time and work. In the end I had a really nice working 3-speed that still looked rough cosmetically and was honestly too small for me. Wound up selling it for a whole lot less than even the parts I put in it. To be honest though, no regrets.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bf7fb8703b.jpg

dweenk 01-09-21 01:50 PM


Originally Posted by sykerocker (Post 21869025)
Not that far away from where I'm at. It'd finally given me the excuse to do the bay bridge and tunnel for a day's drive. 23 years living down here and I've yet to drive on it.

Let me know if you are interested. If you take the bridge/tunnel, Salisbury is right on US 13 - easy to meet.

2fat2fly 01-09-21 03:23 PM

I started to clean up the fenders on the Dunelt, there's almost no paint left on them, all rust and bare metal. The back end of both fenders are crushed, bent, twisted, and have been hammered flat at the bottom. Both have most of the center ridge hammered flat as well.
Any suggestions as to getting these back into shape? I have to at the very least get them back to being sort of round so they don't rub the tires and at least look sort of decent. When I washed the rear fender, the white paint on the rear washed off with just dish soap and water. Most of the rust came right off, leaving just bare metal and no paint. I think the paint wore off this a long, long time ago. The middle clamp for the rear fender is broken, someone had made an L bracket out of what looks like a piece of packing strap and had it shoved under the galvanized bracket that's crimped around the fender. Both fenders have 1/2" cracks on the right edges near the fender stays. I suppose the right thing is to drill the crack and solder it up and touch up the paint?
At this point I think this is more a matter of not spending any money on it, its a matter of making it functional and preserving it so it don't rust away in the future.
With all the paint loss, I'm thinking the best thing to do is give it a coat of clear lacquer over everything. It'll preserve what's left of the lettering and prevent any further rust and give it a bit of a shine vs. the chalky primer black look its got now.




https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...587c426422.jpg
Fenders


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1417a0f587.jpg
Badge on rear fender


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e988743056.jpg
Headbadge


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...821d2998c8.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c88aacdb05.jpg

clubman 01-09-21 04:08 PM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21869791)

... the left blade was bent outward about 1/2" from true, most likely from the speedometer drive they had rigged on the left side of the axle. I tweaked the forks back where they should be to fit a common 100mm hub.

The standard front spread is typically 90mm for English Sports bikes. Not that it's a big problem...

cudak888 01-09-21 06:05 PM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21870214)
With all the paint loss, I'm thinking the best thing to do is give it a coat of clear lacquer over everything. It'll preserve what's left of the lettering and prevent any further rust and give it a bit of a shine vs. the chalky primer black look its got now.

Buff some Meguiars #7 over the entire thing - even the fenders. It'll look like you just cleared it, and since it's black, the rust won't show as bad as you think.

Give it a try. I've tried the clear approach on a Robin Hood of similar condition, and it was a mess by comparison.

-Kurt

homelessjoe 01-09-21 11:52 PM

[QUOTE=dirtman;21869010]Kind of not related but did other brands use BSA hubs and shifters? I seem to recall having an English bike many years ago with a BSA shifter and hub on it.
I owned the bike in the 70's, it was pretty old even then. I'm not sure what ever happened to that bike but I found the shifter a few months ago in a box in the garage.
I seem to remember the frame having a crack or something. I do remember that the headbadge was fairly ornate with a standing knight on it with a helmet similar to a Norman badge. I remember the headbadge being pretty messed up, the bike had a front basket that ate up the headbadge across the bottom. The knight was standing, and I remember the badge having sort of an oval shape.
The bike had Dunlop Endrick style rims, 26x1 3/8", John Bull brake pads, it was black with a wide chain guard. I also seem to remember the chain wheel spelling out the name but I can't for the life of me remember what the brand was. I had bought that bike at a flea market for cheap and just rode it till the frame cracked. At that age I wasn't too interested in what the bike was, it was just transportation. I used it,when it broke I got another bike. I left it at home when I moved away in my early 20's.
Many years later it bugs me that I can't remember what brand it was but I do know it had a BSA hub and shifter. The bike was likely from the 50's.
I've looked through many pics of head badges but haven't seen one that rings a bell yet. The head of the knight stood up above the main part of the headbadge, I remember it was always getting caught on things and bent.[/QUOT That wasent a knight that was Robin Hood........and for a short time back in the day BSA parts were thought to be a step above everything else....especially the cranks.......some of the road racers would put those cranks on their club bikes..........it was sorta common............and also I might add after trying to keep a bike on the road for seventy years..... parts tend to get replaced and changed around......google Robin Hood cycles

2fat2fly 01-10-21 12:40 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 21870261)
The standard front spread is typically 90mm for English Sports bikes. Not that it's a big problem...

I just measured the hub on the front wheel and got 102mm, so I went with 100mm.


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 21870402)
Buff some Meguiars #7 over the entire thing - even the fenders. It'll look like you just cleared it, and since it's black, the rust won't show as bad as you think.

Give it a try. I've tried the clear approach on a Robin Hood of similar condition, and it was a mess by comparison.

-Kurt

I did try polishing a few spots, and did the forks with some clear coat polish I had and all it did was take off paint, no gloss whatsoever. I even tried using some motorcycle windshield polish, which is a very light abrasive and it wouldn't bring up any shine. The paint is chalky and comes off real easy.
I'll have to do something or else every time I ride it'll turn anything that touches it black.

I also don't want to rub off what's left of the yellow Dunelt logos.
I'm thinking that I'll likely take an air brush to the bare paint areas with some black lacquer and then polish it in to match and maybe a light clear over coat to seal the paint
The front fender has no pain at all on the front section, and the rear of the chain guard is just as bad. The rear fender has a spot worn nearly through on the inside were the rear tire was rubbing it at some point and most of the original shape has been pounded flat on the ends. Its going to take a good bit of work just to make them fit right again let alone keeping them rust free.
I've been trying to think of a way to make a simply dolly to hammer out the fenders with. These fenders are a lot thicker metal than the newer bikes. Is going to take a lot of pounding to get them back in shape.

cudak888 01-10-21 12:44 AM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21870857)
I did try polishing a few spots, and did the forks with some clear coat polish I had and all it did was take off paint, no gloss whatsoever. I even tried using some motorcycle windshield polish, which is a very light abrasive and it wouldn't bring up any shine.

Clear coat polishes aren't made for single-stage enamels like Raleigh used. They won't do diddly squat, other smear the oxidation on top.

Take a look at the difference on a '52 Sports using Meguiars #7 followed by a sealing wax:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...gh-sports.html

Before:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7d6ab34520.jpg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9b98443d51.jpg


After:
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1f8a6496fb.jpg\
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...29f87c7444.jpg\
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f05d333085.jpg

Have done this on models from the 1950's through the 1970's. #7 always works - but it takes a LOT of elbow grease.

-Kurt

dirtman 01-10-21 04:55 AM


Originally Posted by homelessjoe (Post 21870828)
] That wasn't a knight that was Robin Hood........and for a short time back in the day BSA parts were thought to be a step above everything else....especially the cranks.......some of the road racers would put those cranks on their club bikes..........it was sorta common............and also I might add after trying to keep a bike on the road for seventy years..... parts tend to get replaced and changed around......google Robin Hood cycles

It wasn't a Robin Hood badge, I had a few of those and it was very different. The badge was sort of oval, with a raised wreath like area around the perimeter and the Knight or Warrior's head stuck up higher than the rest of the badge. The raised surrounding area was sort of rough, like a bunch of small raised points forming what I think was supposed to be a wreath. I remember the badge well because I got the thing caught many times on things and nearly tore the head of the figure off it. By the time I parked that bike, the badge was pretty rough, but I do remember pulling the bars off it one day to use on another bike, but they didn't fit so they got stuck on the shelf; which is why the shifter got saved. The badge had no color, I'm not sure if it was worn or just bare metal but it was a tarnished silver in color. I'm pretty sure is said just Birmingham on the bottom. The knight or warrior's helmet was the type that came down over the bridge of his nose. and he was facing forward about 45 to the right.

elcraft 01-10-21 08:44 AM

Seems that there is some question about Sturmey Archer threading standard. Same as it ever was; BSC 13/32 x 26 tpi. I found a tap in that threading on eBay UK. Rumor has it that McMaster Carr has occasionally produced these taps. I have a plan to rethread a set of Gripfast wing nuts and machine in a bore for the indicator sleeve. .

markk900 01-10-21 09:03 AM

dirtman : was it perhaps Norman? I stole this photo from The CABE but hoped it might trigger a memory....


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3dde1f24e.jpeg

dirtman 01-10-21 04:32 PM

The helmets on those knights are different. The figure on the headbadge was facing forward and he helmet looked like it covered the bridge of his nose, similar to an old Roman helmet. The cranks spelled out the brand, a letter on each spire of the pattern. It was a larger than normal chainring with longer arms, I seem to remember trying to swap in a Raleigh crank but it was too much of a mismatch size wise. I would have had to cut 6 or 8 links from the chain. I still have the Raleigh cranks that someone gave me for it that I didn't use, they're still hanging on a nail in the garage out back where I left them back then.

homelessjoe 01-10-21 07:01 PM

I love a good mystery,,,a mission ...a quest

cszipper 01-10-21 09:06 PM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 21868112)
I do not know what the hub threads are in order to ensure that when I replace them I order the correct parts for front (and rear); but not without inserts if alloy. Possible to bore out my alloy wing nuts and install correctly threaded inserts?? The hubs are original to the bike; rear hub is S-A "AW" dated 69 13; front hub Raleigh OE. Are both hubs Whitworth threads? Are there wing nuts available for that thread style if required? I have have other wing nuts (different sized; front and rear?) that fit early French hubs ('30s--'60s), and others fitting Italian hubs; but none will fit the English hubs (front or rear; tried on 1954 Hercules, 1965 Robin Hood, and 1970 Raleigh). All my other wing nuts are "steel", or have brass threaded inserts.

On Raleigh built bikes, thread of the front axle differs depending on your hub. The standard front hub is 5/16-26 thread. Dynohub and drum brake hubs are 3/8-26. These are standard BSC threads, and you can find fasteners, taps, and dies for sale online. As stated by another poster, the rear Sturmey Archer axle is 13/32-26, which is non-standard.

There is a lot of talk about Whitworth nuts and bolts on Raleighs, but, while Whitworth wrenches may fit the nuts and bolt heads, all of the Raleigh fasteners that I have measured use a standard 60 degree thread angle. True Whitworth fasteners have a 55 degree thread angle and are not correct for the Raleighs I've worked on, though this distinction only becomes relevant if you are buying or making new fasteners, taps, or dies.

-Carl

2fat2fly 01-11-21 01:06 AM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 21870402)
Buff some Meguiars #7 over the entire thing - even the fenders. It'll look like you just cleared it, and since it's black, the rust won't show as bad as you think.

Give it a try. I've tried the clear approach on a Robin Hood of similar condition, and it was a mess by comparison.

-Kurt

I don't have any #7, but I have a full line of 3M polish and several buffers, I went so far as trying aluminum polish and the only part that takes any sort of polish is the chain stays, BB shell, and the bottom five inches of the down tube.
All the rest goes right to bare metal the minute I touch it even with the lightest polish.
I hammered out the fenders, drilled and soldered up the worst of the cracks and straightened the fender stays as best I could.
The front fender is a mess, I clamped two old leaf springs down on the bench about 3/16" apart and use that to reform the center bead of the fenders, and did the rest with a ball been hammer and body hammer over a 2" pipe elbow in a vise. They'll work well enough but they aren't pretty. The rear fender had no paint on the inside at all after soaking away the rust, and the top middle section was pretty much bare as well. The front fender ended up with almost no trace of original paint except where the fork crown covers it.
I'm not 100% sure the two fenders were even from this bike originally, and both appear to have been painted before. When I was cleaning the rear fender, I removed the broken center clamp and saw that it originally had two fine gold pinstripes down each side at one point, each pair of stripes ran close to the outer most ridge of the fender. The front fender had single outlining, in a box shape, it was noticeable even in the bare metal. The rear fender brace is attached with a inner clamp, there is no screw hole in the brace itself, its just a plain U shaped wire with a loop on each end. The front brace is shaped to match the fender profile and has a middle loop where the screw goes just like on any other Raleigh sub brand. The front fender paint, what little I can still see is more black, the rest of the bike is different paint. After more 60+ years, I suppose anything is possible, but my guess is the front fender came from another bike at some point.
The plan is to reclean the frame, air brush all the bare metal with black and either buff it to match or clear the whole bike.
I wish I could buy the stencils for the Dunelt lettering, from what I can see, they were hand painted with some sort of guide from the factory. At this point, it would be easy enough to just strip the thing down and repaint it right, the only problem with that is the "only original once' fact but in its present shape, I think that's completely out the window at this point.
For right now, I gave the front fender a coat of lacquer with the simple preservation in mind. The fender was nearly 100% rust when I found it with barely any signs of original paint left after straitening it. If the repainted fender looks that out of place in the end, I can always swap it out for a used one later, its not original to the bike anyhow, unless they painted over these day one to make them match the bike? The fade sure seemed to match the rest of the bike. The center bead is also wider on the front fender than on the rear by about a couple millimeters.

cudak888 01-11-21 08:03 AM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21872255)
I don't have any #7, but I have a full line of 3M polish and several buffers, I went so far as trying aluminum polish and the only part that takes any sort of polish is the chain stays, BB shell, and the bottom five inches of the down tube.
All the rest goes right to bare metal the minute I touch it even with the lightest polish.

Straight to bare metal upon a light polish sounds odd. On the rusted areas, and not the painted ones? Have a picture?

FYI, 3M Hand Glaze is more or less the same as #7.

-Kurt

markk900 01-11-21 08:24 AM


Originally Posted by homelessjoe (Post 21871925)
I love a good mystery,,,a mission ...a quest

I stumbled on this flickr site while on the quest to find the headbadge..... one could easily spend hours looking at this collection.... alas I did not find dirtman 's headbadge (though some of the Norman badges sure made me look twice).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikegeek/

2fat2fly 01-11-21 09:02 AM

Most of the areas that had obvious rust polish to bare shiny metal, the only good solid paint is around the BB and Chainstays, the paint there is tough as nails, the rest of the paint is real chalky, even wiping it with a dry towel turns the towel black.
Its worse on the right side than the left too, so maybe its got to do with how it was sitting or exposed to the sun over the years. Even when I polish the better areas, those to the right side remain sort of hazy as if there's a film over the paint. The left side shines up fine.
Getting anywhere near the lettering removes it instantly, even with plain cleaner wax.
The only thing I've found so far that'll cut hard enough to make any of it sort of shine is really meant to be wheel polish. Similar to Mother's but from a Motorcycle supplier.
I've got Dupont #7 polishing compound, and Dupont rubbing compound, both in liquid or paste, three kinds of clear coat and lens polish from the MC dealer. In my old box I've got Meguiars #3, 100, 110, and 210, and #9 swirl remover. I've polished paint before, there just isn't enough paint left to polish that's not turned to chalk or rust. One thing I can't help but notice is that the paint turns sort of a bronze black color when I polish on it, even by hand. The forks and both fenders have two layers, the top layer on the forks rubbed right off, leaving a thicker layer underneath and exposing some pinstriping there too.
The frame has no pinstriping visible, I'm wondering if this has been repainted before, or maybe they repainted it at the factory covering up the pinstriping? The head tube lugs are also outlined, but that wasn't visible till I cleaned off the rust, which took away some of the dead paint in that area as well. There's not much left of the lettering, the DT lettering is about half gone, the Made in England on top is barely readable. The seat tube lettering is in the best shape.
The fenders are drying, I gave the front a full coat of black lacquer, and hit the rear fender only where there was bare metal.
I also shot the rear dropouts and a bit on the fork blade that was ground down to bare steel. One its dry and hardened, I'll rub it to match as best I can and try some clear over it all. At this point I think its mainly a matter of preventing it from getting worse. I can't leave any bare metal, or the rust will just return the first time it sees some humidity or rain.
I wasn't worried about painting the fenders because they're both in such bad shape, the only right fix would be two good used fenders. I have a set of old Raleigh fenders in black but they use different fender braces which are too long. The Raleigh braces are welded to the fenders. I've also got a set of brand new fenders, they look very similar but are newer and much lighter metal. I'm not sure what they were for, I likely bought them years ago for some other bike. I had an Armstrong in high school that I had planned to fix up but never did, they may have been something I bought and saved over the years. I just don't think this bike is worth wasting a set of new fenders on though.
The right answer for this bike would be to do a complete repaint, but without a stencil or someway to duplicate the original lettering, that's not an option.

I just noticed this on fleabay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DUNELT-mens-52-cm-3-speed-50s-60s-Vintage-Bicycle-Great-Condition/174428010781
This one is a bit newer but has the same lettering. The seat and fork are different than mine.

On mine, I can see a few places where the black paint is chipped on the head tube that's showing white underneath.
But the black is under the headbadge too, its as if it got repainted before the badge was installed.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:20 AM.


Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.