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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

markk900 01-11-21 12:35 PM

2fat2fly : it might be a good idea to take some detailed photos of the decals right now, laying a rule next to them for scale. While it is probably not something you will want to do right now, there are some very good decal makers available and while not cheap you can get new ones made. However if things are that fragile it would be good to document all that you have now for future reference.

Salubrious 01-11-21 01:00 PM


Originally Posted by sykerocker (Post 21869029)
There were a couple of BSA bicycles around the vintage British motorcycle group I've done shows with (it's the mark of a real BSA collector to have at least one bicycle to go along with all the motorcycles), and I've always been under the impression that those were a bit newer than late 50's. Didn't Raleigh keep the brand going for a few years after they bought it?

Yes. The difference is on the later machines the Birmingham Small Arms logo does not appear on parts like the crank arms, stem and so on.

2fat2fly 01-11-21 09:46 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 21872995)
2fat2fly : it might be a good idea to take some detailed photos of the decals right now, laying a rule next to them for scale. While it is probably not something you will want to do right now, there are some very good decal makers available and while not cheap you can get new ones made. However if things are that fragile it would be good to document all that you have now for future reference.

That was one of the first things I did, with hopes of finding someone who made new decals.
I can buy the English Lightweights decal as a water slide, and the Made in England on the top tube, which is the same as most Raleigh bikes. The "DUNELT" on the seat post and two on the DT are painted. The Dunelt on the chainguard is a water slide type decal.

I gave up trying to polish up the dull paint with anything normal, I resorted to machine rubbing compound meant for buffing lacquer paint, the stuff if pretty course but it cuts fast. The first thing i noticed is that the paint is in two layers, the dull black stuff on top comes off fast, what's below it is like trying to polish glass or stone. Nothing cuts it but it does gain a slight sheen. The problem is the lettering and decals appear to be on the top layer. What's odd is that the bottom layer has pinstripes, the same fine line double gold pinstriping that the rear fender had.

Did Raleigh maybe take bikes already painted for another brand and repaint them as Dunelts?
I also noticed that the bottom bracket had a thick dried layer of black paint globbed up against the left bearing cup. I picked it out thinking it was dried grease but its a chunk of shiny paint.
The chainguard is going to get painted, there's no choice, there's just not enough paint to ever make it presentable and clear over bare metal just isn't a fix. If its going to be used or get wet,it needs to be painted. I soft masked the Dunelt decal and dusted it with several light coats of black lacquer. I'll buff it out in a few days when the paint is really hard and clear over the decal to preserve it and blend in that area. It won't be original or perfect but it won't rust any further and it'll look a lot better than being dull and rusty.

Even after grinding on it with a 6" orbital buffer with rubbing compound, there's still areas that are hazy and won't shine.
At this point, I think the best thing to do is touch up the bare metal, wet sand the touch up spots smooth and clear the whole frame to preserve the decals. Its not my first choice but likely the only choice at this point. I never intended to get this far into this thing, I wasn't going to go any further than just repacking all the bearings and just riding it but the fixing the fenders, lead to cleaning off some rust, which led to it needing those bare areas painted, and now to a completely stripped down bike with the fenders and cg being repainted and likely the whole bike now.

I still don't have a good rear wheel, just the pitted coaster brake wheel it came with, and I need to find a one new cotter pin to put it back together.

After several hours of trying to buff up the black paint in the frame I gave up, this is as far as I got:
(Buffing it with rubbing compound did get rid of most of the chalky black paint that was getting on everything, except around the lettering itself on the DT.).


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...350b49a0e3.jpg

cudak888 01-11-21 11:22 PM

Keep going. Put a foam applicator in a drill if it gets too tiring - I know that it's the absolute wrong advice when dealing with old single-stage auto paint, but this is dipped enamel. Just take care around the transfers.

-Kurt

HPL 01-11-21 11:58 PM

Raleigh and STURMEY-ARCHER Hub threads
 
@cszipper Thanks Carl !

2fat2fly 01-12-21 01:22 AM


Originally Posted by cudak888 (Post 21874010)
Keep going. Put a foam applicator in a drill if it gets too tiring - I know that it's the absolute wrong advice when dealing with old single-stage auto paint, but this is dipped enamel. Just take care around the transfers.

-Kurt

One of the problems is that they're not all transfers the DT lettering is painted, I can see the brush strokes in each letter that's worn away. I was also surprise to see that the headbadge is brass not aluminum.
Are they enamel or lacquer?

Is this the serial number?
(Looks like 105620 XA)


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...efdc7b963f.jpg

gster 01-12-21 09:12 AM

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a69ef83984.png
An S/A equipped Schwinn 3 speed from the 60's for sale in Toronto.
A show bike more than a rider.
Seller is asking $400.00 (CDN)

sykerocker 01-12-21 10:07 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21874325)
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a69ef83984.png
An S/A equipped Schwinn 3 speed from the 60's for sale in Toronto.
A show bike more than a rider.
Seller is asking $400.00 (CDN)

Looks like a Corvette. Add center tank with horn and a red rear rack with taillight, and you've got a Mark IV Jaguar, which my parents got me for my 8th birthday in 1958. Which, 11 years later (minus a few of the gewgaws) was my first commuter bike at college. From the time I've spent on The CABE over the past year, that price is actually not bad (believe that translates out to about $300-325.00 American?). Those Schwinn's go for a lot more than we're used to with our British roadsters. Considering how they perform compared to a Sports, it absolutely floors me.

gster 01-12-21 10:12 AM


Originally Posted by sykerocker (Post 21874403)
Looks like a Corvette. Add center tank with horn and a red rear rack with taillight, and you've got a Mark IV Jaguar, which my parents got me for my 8th birthday in 1958. Which, 11 years later (minus a few of the gewgaws) was my first commuter bike at college. From the time I've spent on The CABE over the past year, that price is actually not bad (believe that translates out to about $300-325.00 American?). Those Schwinn's go for a lot more than we're used to with our British roadsters. Considering how they perform compared to a Sports, it absolutely floors me.

Not my style but I appreciate the design.
Seller calls it a Typhoon and says it was on display in a bike shop for the past 20 years or so.

sykerocker 01-12-21 10:25 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21874411)
Not my style but I appreciate the design.
Seller calls it a Typhoon and says it was on display in a bike shop for the past 20 years or so.

I definitely could be mistaken, plus I remember what they called them back in the Fifties. By the Sixties I wasn't following these bikes at all. It's gotta be a semi-rare one, given that by that point in time the kids wanted Stingrays, not those big fancy paper boy bikes.

markk900 01-12-21 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21874082)
One of the problems is that they're not all transfers the DT lettering is painted, I can see the brush strokes in each letter that's worn away. I was also surprise to see that the headbadge is brass not aluminum.
Are they enamel or lacquer?

Is this the serial number?
(Looks like 105620 XA)


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...efdc7b963f.jpg

Yup - that's the Serial Number.

My Humber has a brass headbadge as well.

BTW: I think you mentioned the boss on the drive side chain stay and I don't know if you got an answer: that is the mounting point for models with a full chaincase. Pretty typical of that era.

oldspokes 01-12-21 11:48 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21874325)
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a69ef83984.png
An S/A equipped Schwinn 3 speed from the 60's for sale in Toronto.
A show bike more than a rider.
Seller is asking $400.00 (CDN)

Looks like the Schwinn Typhoon I had as a kid. Nearly identical. The one I owned back then was trash picked in the early 70's. In similar condition. I used it to deliver news papers for years. One telltale of an earlier model is the chainring, the 70's models came with a 'mag' style chainring vs. the four circles on this one.
The Typhoon was the bottom of the middleweight lineup but there really wasn't much difference between the various models besides racks, tanks, or decals.
I've got a late 50's Schwinn American frameset hanging in the garage right now, I picked it up at an auction about 20 years ago with the intention of finding the rest of it but I've never come across a good set of wheels.
I seem to remember the middle weight boy's models were Typhoon, American, Jaguar, Corvette, Panther, Spitfire, and Heavy Duti.

Unca_Sam 01-12-21 12:17 PM

1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne, built by Hercules
 
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...af2585fbdb.jpg
Flipped bars 🤪

I know! It's a Department Store Bike! But, Montgomery Ward's Hawthorne brand was built by Hercules, which was a part of TI industries at the time the bike was assembled.
The original wheelset had a SA AW hub with 60 8 stamped in the shell (it's a smooth shell, not lined). In 1962, the MW Christmas catalog specified that the bikes were red, and no longer black. This bike was someone's 1960 or 1961 Christmas present. The original seat pin wasn't long enough to permit me to ride this bicycle (advertised for ages 9 and up!) so I have an alloy seat pin in there. Just about every component is stamped with "Made in England" or "Made in Great Britain" somewhere. The pedals were rebuilt, along with the headset and bottom bracket, and the hubs. Because this frame is using a single top tube, I have to conclude that this was MW's "thrift" or "budget" offering. The Deluxe version in 1960-1962 used dual top tubes that continued to the rear dropouts after the seat tube.
The bicycle was in poor condition when I found it, with rusted rims missing a great deal of chroming, dry rotted tires, a scaly DS seatstay, and decades of accumulated grime and rust.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bff29aaf92.jpg
The sellers picture.
I cleaned it, disassembled it, and tried to rescue the original wheels in vain. Missing chrome on the brake surface and bad cones in the front hub sealed their fate. Thankfully, the bike co-op had a *matching* set of 1970's ISO 590 wheels for a song! I used Evapo-Rust on the saddle and just about every part but the frame and chainguard. Those were treated with naval jelly. I sanded the rust scale off of the DS chainstay and treated all bare steel with Ospho for rust prevention/abatement. I mushroomed the crank cotter pins trying to remove them with a homemade pin press, so I ordered replacements and filed them until they fit. I painted the saddle frame, light kit mounts, and the unchromed SA fulcrum with Rustoleum cold galvanizing paint to get as close as possible to the original coating they had. I kept the original ribbed housings since I like the look, and replacing them would cost several times more than I paid for the bike. Chrome and paint were polished and oiled or waxed! Rims were trued! New grips and tyres (;)) were mounted!
I'm not sold on the flipped bars, but they seem useful for fit even if the steering is a little twitchy.
Here are a few pictures of details. I have more in my album here, and I can post more if anyone is interested. I don't want to clog up this marvelous thread!
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fad015c7fb.jpg
Hercules Decal on the seat tube. "Guaranteed Made in England"
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...74fd29c9d3.jpg
Genuine English Lightweight. At just under 36 pounds as built.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5618cee591.jpg
Miller light kit, an accessory for the bike. Tinned glass reflector and lens. Original dimpled Bulb! Anachronistic nylon zip tie for cable management.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9b65e9cf83.jpg
Miller bottle dynamo, mount, and tail light. Vox Populi Phillips pattern sidepull brake.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...08b8f4c90c.jpg
This saddle did not sell with this bike in the catalog. The two- toned vinyl saddle was sold on the more expensive double top tube frame. I removed the rivets and cover to remove the rust and repaint the frame, rails, and guts. Rivets were replaced with new ones.

gster 01-12-21 12:31 PM


Originally Posted by Unca_Sam (Post 21874660)
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...af2585fbdb.jpg
Flipped bars 🤪

I know! It's a Department Store Bike! But, Montgomery Ward's Hawthorne brand was built by Hercules, which was a part of TI industries at the time the bike was assembled.
The original wheelset had a SA AW hub with 60 8 stamped in the shell (it's a smooth shell, not lined). In 1962, the MW Christmas catalog specified that the bikes were red, and no longer black. This bike was someone's 1960 or 1961 Christmas present. The original seat pin wasn't long enough to permit me to ride this bicycle (advertised for ages 9 and up!) so I have an alloy seat pin in there. Just about every component is stamped with "Made in England" or "Made in Great Britain" somewhere. The pedals were rebuilt, along with the headset and bottom bracket, and the hubs. Because this frame is using a single top tube, I have to conclude that this was MW's "thrift" or "budget" offering. The Deluxe version in 1960-1962 used dual top tubes that continued to the rear dropouts after the seat tube.
The bicycle was in poor condition when I found it, with rusted rims missing a great deal of chroming, dry rotted tires, a scaly DS seatstay, and decades of accumulated grime and rust.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bff29aaf92.jpg
The sellers picture.
I cleaned it, disassembled it, and tried to rescue the original wheels in vain. Missing chrome on the brake surface and bad cones in the front hub sealed their fate. Thankfully, the bike co-op had a *matching* set of 1970's ISO 590 wheels for a song! I used Evapo-Rust on the saddle and just about every part but the frame and chainguard. Those were treated with naval jelly. I sanded the rust scale off of the DS chainstay and treated all bare steel with Ospho for rust prevention/abatement. I mushroomed the crank cotter pins trying to remove them with a homemade pin press, so I ordered replacements and filed them until they fit. I painted the saddle frame, light kit mounts, and the unchromed SA fulcrum with Rustoleum cold galvanizing paint to get as close as possible to the original coating they had. I kept the original ribbed housings since I like the look, and replacing them would cost several times more than I paid for the bike. Chrome and paint were polished and oiled or waxed! Rims were trued! New grips and tyres (;)) were mounted!
I'm not sold on the flipped bars, but they seem useful for fit even if the steering is a little twitchy.
Here are a few pictures of details. I have more in my album here, and I can post more if anyone is interested. I don't want to clog up this marvelous thread!
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fad015c7fb.jpg
Hercules Decal on the seat tube. "Guaranteed Made in England"
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...74fd29c9d3.jpg
Genuine English Lightweight. At just under 36 pounds as built.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5618cee591.jpg
Miller light kit, an accessory for the bike. Tinned glass reflector and lens. Original dimpled Bulb! Anachronistic nylon zip tie for cable management.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9b65e9cf83.jpg
Miller bottle dynamo, mount, and tail light. Vox Populi Phillips pattern sidepull brake.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...08b8f4c90c.jpg
This saddle did not sell with this bike in the catalog. The two- toned vinyl saddle was sold on the more expensive double top tube frame. I removed the rivets and cover to remove the rust and repaint the frame, rails, and guts. Rivets were replaced with new ones.

Very nice build.
I couldn't ride it, it would kill my neck...
You've got what we call a "Semi-Scorcher".(down turned bars)
A full Scorcher would require the removal of the fenders and chain guard..

Unca_Sam 01-12-21 02:14 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21874698)
Very nice build.
I couldn't ride it, it would kill my neck...
You've got what we call a "Semi-Scorcher".(down turned bars)
A full Scorcher would require the removal of the fenders and chain guard..

I never thought to take off the fenders and chainguard! While I may not frequently ride in the rain, it rains here enough that fenders are smart for wet pavement and puddles. I even have them on my carbon wonder bike! I'll hold onto that idea though.

gster 01-12-21 03:50 PM

I've arranged to buy this bike here in mexico.
The seller's in the next town over and will deliver tomorrow.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4b5ed56c80.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2ad1c63fcc.jpg
It's either Indian or a Mexican built Benotta.
Seller says it's 40 years old and has been restored.

oldspokes 01-12-21 07:46 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21875004)
I've arranged to buy this bike here in mexico.
The seller's in the next town over and will deliver tomorrow.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4b5ed56c80.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2ad1c63fcc.jpg
It's either Indian or a Mexican built Benotta.
Seller says it's 40 years old and has been restored.

It kind of looks like a spray bomb rebuild.
The only chrome I see is the saddle springs, the rest looks like silver spray paint.
How much do they want for it?

gster 01-12-21 10:32 PM


Originally Posted by oldspokes (Post 21875296)
It kind of looks like a spray bomb rebuild.
The only chrome I see is the saddle springs, the rest looks like silver spray paint.
How much do they want for it?

Good eye.
I'll negotiate when I see it in person.
Not asking much , $150
Bikes for sale are scarce here.

2fat2fly 01-13-21 02:03 AM


Originally Posted by Unca_Sam (Post 21874660)
.....................................................
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...08b8f4c90c.jpg
This saddle did not sell with this bike in the catalog. The two- toned vinyl saddle was sold on the more expensive double top tube frame. I removed the rivets and cover to remove the rust and repaint the frame, rails, and guts. Rivets were replaced with new ones.

May I ask where did you get the rivets?
I've got the same saddle here with some very rusty rivets, one of which is missing the back half completely.

cudak888 01-13-21 03:04 AM


Originally Posted by Unca_Sam (Post 21874875)
I never thought to take off the fenders and chainguard! While I may not frequently ride in the rain, it rains here enough that fenders are smart for wet pavement and puddles. I even have them on my carbon wonder bike! I'll hold onto that idea though.

It looks both sporty and elegant with the fenders - like a 1940's path racer. Keep them.

-Kurt

gster 01-13-21 08:47 AM


Originally Posted by Unca_Sam (Post 21874875)
I never thought to take off the fenders and chainguard! While I may not frequently ride in the rain, it rains here enough that fenders are smart for wet pavement and puddles. I even have them on my carbon wonder bike! I'll hold onto that idea though.

Not suggesting you do that as I think your bike is perfect as is...

Unca_Sam 01-13-21 09:46 AM

:love:
I appreciate the love I'm getting for this build. Bringing that paint back to a polish (where that was possible) and knocking back the rust was a good bit of work, but the end result looks to be worth it.

Unca_Sam 01-13-21 09:59 AM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21875582)
May I ask where did you get the rivets?
I've got the same saddle here with some very rusty rivets, one of which is missing the back half completely.

I bought them on Amazon. They were sold in a box of 90 only, so if you can PM me an address and the number you need, I can just mail you some instead of letting the ones I have rust in my basement workshop. IIRC, I needed 10 for this saddle; 8 for the sides and 2 at the back. The heads are slightly smaller than the originals on my Wright's saddle, otherwise these work like an exact replacement.

I was going to reuse the rivets I removed to soak the saddle frame and rails in Evapo-Rust and I even soaked them to remove their rust, but I lost one rivet and ended up replacing them all.

IsleRide 01-13-21 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 21875492)
Good eye.
I'll negotiate when I see it in person.
Not asking much , $150
Bikes for sale are scarce here.

Flip that seat clamp around and you're good to go...............on the road again!

michaelcummings 01-13-21 11:52 AM

Beware Rusty Chains
 

Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 21867773)
The one thing in the back of mind as I work on this bike is that I'm going to have a ton of hours into a bike that'll never be worth a fraction of the time I've got into it. The bike itself isn't bad, its just severely cosmetically challenged due to being left out in the weather for so long.


My experience from my 10 years as a bike mechanic (long ago and far away) is that rusty chains can and will break.
A new chain is cheap insurance.

And personal experience, when I was a kid, I "fixed" a rusty chain by loosening it up, link by link.
The very first time I rode it, the chain snapped and I tumbled and got road rash.
Lucky me, no cars ran me down.

Good luck with your project!


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