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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

Positron400 03-20-23 02:37 PM

So, as previously mentioned, I am a proud owner of some vintage wheels which came with tubulars. Those are trash though and need to be replaced. How do I go about removing the old ones? Do i have to remove all residue? If so, how?
thanks for all the tips in advance!

DiabloScott 03-20-23 02:50 PM


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22835192)
So, as previously mentioned, I am a proud owner of some vintage wheels which came with tubulars. Those are trash though and need to be replaced. How do I go about removing the old ones? Do i have to remove all residue? If so, how?
thanks for all the tips in advance!

Get a tire lever under there and just pry it off - it won't come all at once - you may have to work your way around. I'd bet either your glue is so old it'll be easy... or so cured that it'll be a royal PITA. If necessary, you can cut through the tire to rip it off like a roll of tape.

Unless there's a lot of build-up from previous glue jobs... it's fine (maybe even better) to leave it on there. If not and/or you want a clean rim... a wire brush on a drill will take off the crusty stuff without using solvents. You don't want any old tire fabric on the rim... but you'll get better bond with a little "tooth" on it.

mosinglespeeder 03-21-23 10:23 AM

within reason: leave the residue was what my master teacher taught me, it allows a better bond for the next layer of glue, and a few layers is nothing to sweat

if..however, you have a ton, yes, then lightly use wire brush or lightly sand down carefully and then leave appropriate amount to bond to
It's actually easier regluing than new rims that need a couple layers applied and dry time between

SJX426 03-21-23 03:15 PM

If you use a wire wheel, use a brass one only if crusty residue. Otherwise you may gum up your wire wheel. Brass minimized scoring the rim.

squirtdad 03-21-23 06:16 PM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 22836322)
If you use a wire wheel, use a brass one only if crusty residue. Otherwise you may gum up your wire wheel. Brass minimized scoring the rim.

brass is the key word here :)

Positron400 03-22-23 12:18 AM

The tires were easily removed.. almost fell off, when i started to tear it. Must have been incredibly dry. I lightly sanded the residue off with sand paper, and put on some tubulars for pre-stretching

SJX426 03-22-23 06:07 AM


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22836664)
The tires were easily removed.. almost fell off, when i started to tear it. Must have been incredibly dry. I lightly sanded the residue off with sand paper, and put on some tubulars for pre-stretching

Judge weather the remaining glue is dried out. If it is, then using a brass wheel will take it off in a matter of minutes for both wheels. Check you sandpaper to see if there is a gumming as a result of the sanding you did.

Trakhak 03-22-23 06:20 AM

If you're not sure of what brand the original rim glue was, best to clean it all off before gluing the next tire on. You might luck out, but be aware that some glues act as solvents for each other. (White glue and red = might end up dead.)

(Rebuttal to future replies: as I said, you might luck out.)

Positron400 03-22-23 06:24 AM


Originally Posted by Trakhak (Post 22836761)
If you're not sure of what brand the original rim glue was, best to clean it all off before gluing the next tire on. You might luck out, but be aware that some glues act as solvents for each other. (White glue and red = might end up dead.)

(Rebuttal to future replies: as I said, you might luck out.)

Thanks, I will try'n and thorougly remove all residue to be on the safe side. Decided to try Tape instead of glue b'cause i am impatient, and this seems like the easier roadside fix.

pastorbobnlnh 03-22-23 07:02 AM

I've had great results with tape and no issues whatsoever. Plus, aligning the tire is very easy.

Positron400 03-22-23 08:19 AM

Do i have to carry spare tape as well, if i puncture on the road, or will I just have to swap out the tire and be on my merry way with the old tape?

EVlove 03-22-23 09:17 AM

If anybody is looking for glue, you can save a few bucks on Vittoria Mastik at backcountry.com right now--$19.99 for the 250g can. Shipping is $5.95. https://www.backcountry.com/vittoria...ofessional-kit

Same deal also through competitivecyclist.com and steepandcheap.com (which is what I did), those are just different fronts for the same store. I've ordered from steep&cheap previously, their sale prices can be very good. Their offerings lean heavily towards MTB stuff but I did find a few more items (bottle cage, brake cables) to spread the shipping cost further.

Positron400 03-23-23 03:02 PM

More questions: When i eventually use tape for putting my tubulars on the rim, should i leave small section of rim w/o tape opposite the valve, in case i need to change the tubular on the road? How do you guys do it?

CV-6 03-24-23 08:36 AM


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22838357)
More questions: When i eventually use tape for putting my tubulars on the rim, should i leave small section of rim w/o tape opposite the valve, in case i need to change the tubular on the road? How do you guys do it?

You will find the tire much easier to remove if you leave the gap.

Positron400 03-25-23 10:55 AM

Installed my first set of tubulars with TUFO rim tape. decided to leave 1 cm untaped opposite of the valve. First ride, and despite the fact that i am used to way wider tyres (30mm +), the 25C challngers rode suprisingly nice! Do i have to remove all the tape, when i eventually switch tires or puncture?

DiabloScott 03-25-23 02:55 PM


Originally Posted by Positron400 (Post 22840134)
Do i have to remove all the tape, when i eventually switch tires or puncture?

Yes, and post video here for future reference.

MooneyBloke 03-26-23 07:43 AM

Gluing question for the peanut gallery: assume you have a decent glue base on the rim. How fresh does the glue on the tape need to be? I'm thinking that the solvent outgas from the fresh rim application will soften and fuse with old tape glue, and it might make sense to apply the tape glue and let it dry a day before putting a fresh tire on a clean rim to stretch. Also, that gets a tire ready for folding as a spare in case one doesn't have an old nasty sitting around for the purpose. Thoughts?


Addendum: the picture here is (at least) three glue applications: the dry glue base on the rim, the dry tape glue on the tire, and a fresh wet application to the rim just before mounting the tire. I'm not suggesting simply mounting dry glue to dry glue though that's what you're doing when you mount a spare on the road.

Many thanks to DiabloScott for teaching me the three-fold tire wad for spares.

DiabloScott 03-26-23 09:45 AM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22840788)
Gluing question for the peanut gallery: assume you have a decent glue base on the rim. How fresh does the glue on the tape need to be?

Like a lot of things, it's a matter of degree. I propose a sliding scale of 0-10 for estimating the security of a glue job.

Zero: no glue on rim, no glue on tire. You could ride this in an emergency if you're really careful with braking and turning... pump up pressure to max.
Ten: perfect preparation, perfect glue application, perfect curing time. You could ride this in a 6-corner criterium in August. You'll probably ruin the tire if you have to take it off.

Replacing a flat on the road with a pre-glued spare would be about a 3 - good enough to finish the ride if you're not worried about another flat.
I figure my process for a new install gives me about a 7 which is safe and confidence-inspiring; more than that is just pointless overkill for my riding.

I submit that if you had a 7, then needed to replace a tire and you put on a tire that had fresh glue 6-months ago and put it on the rim you just took a tire off of (clean, garage conditions)... that'd be about a 5.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f058325e1.jpg

MooneyBloke 03-26-23 10:01 AM

That isn't quite the question proposed. What I'm interested in is if a fresh application of glue to a rim with a glue base preceding the mount of a tire with dry glue on the base tape activates the dry layers sufficiently for for the bond to be considered good. More to the point, must the glue on the base tape have been wet very recently for the bond to be road worthy?

DiabloScott 03-26-23 10:11 AM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22840926)
That isn't quite the question proposed. What I'm interested in is if a fresh application of glue to a rim with a glue base preceding the mount of a tire with dry glue on the base tape activates the dry layers sufficiently for for the bond to be considered good. More to the point, must the glue on the base tape have been wet very recently for the bond to be road worthy?

There is no "must".
Dry glue 5
Wet glue 6
On the DiabloScott tubular glue job security scale.

MooneyBloke 03-26-23 12:09 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22840938)
There is no "must".

I tend to think there is a "must" if you want to take hard corners with a more than a small measure of confidence. I don't particularly like the taste of pavement.

Also, I'm not sure I'd call a glue job that destroys a tire on removal a ten. I'd consider a perfect glue job something I can remove by hand (thumbs to insert a round bladed tool and pull tool to lift off glue) but would never roll off in cornering.

The real question is how good a bond is tire:basetape:dry <--> wet:dry:rim?

I tend to think that the wet application will soften the dry glue and bond very strongly with it. I'd like an understanding to the contrary if I am wrong.

FWIW: if I'm in reasonable shape, I weigh about 142lbs hydrated, and I run 22mm (veloflex crits) front and back at 100psi/110psi respectively.

Classtime 03-26-23 09:13 PM

FWIW, I have mounted a spare on the road that had dry glue, and had a difficult time removing it after I repaired my good tire.

SJX426 03-28-23 03:30 AM

I wanted to try the Bianchi out prior to gluing. The valve moved enough to convince me not to do it.
NOS rims and new tires.

mosinglespeeder 03-28-23 06:49 PM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22841062)
I tend to think there is a "must" if you want to take hard corners with a more than a small measure of confidence. I don't particularly like the taste of pavement.

Also, I'm not sure I'd call a glue job that destroys a tire on removal a ten. I'd consider a perfect glue job something I can remove by hand (thumbs to insert a round bladed tool and pull tool to lift off glue) but would never roll off in cornering.

The real question is how good a bond is tire:basetape:dry <--> wet:dry:rim?

I tend to think that the wet application will soften the dry glue and bond very strongly with it. I'd like an understanding to the contrary if I am wrong.

FWIW: if I'm in reasonable shape, I weigh about 142lbs hydrated, and I run 22mm (veloflex crits) front and back at 100psi/110psi respectively.

agree 100%
only use a dry run to get home w/spare
wet rim glue, to wet tyre
the dry glue on the tyre will not reliably activate...and don't try the theory of natural selection to save a nickel...IMHO

MooneyBloke 03-28-23 08:41 PM


Originally Posted by mosinglespeeder (Post 22843491)
and don't try the theory of natural selection to save a nickel...IMHO

I'm not trying to save a nickle. I'm trying to avoid redundancy. Sufficient as opposed to overkill.

I do think that tire glue is an area where there should be solid fact rather than religions and tribes. I want an engineering optimum. I.e. no more than necessary. No less than necessary.

I tend to believe that fresh glue in intimate contact with cured glue (at least of the Conti/Vitt Mastik One types) should give very good adhesion. Otherwise it seems that you'd have a lot of layer separation between subsequent glue layers. Here's the point: it you're doing brush application as I am, and mounting the tire soon after application, the wet glue will move into the irregularities in the tape and the existing glue base. There's really no place for the solvent to go but into the adjacent glue layers softening them. N.b. I'm not talking about a new tire which indeed needs an application to the base tape, nor am I talking about a bare rim surface. I'm trying to get to the truth about the solvent effects of wet glue on cured glue.

DiabloScott 03-28-23 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22841062)
I tend to think there is a "must" if you want to take hard corners with a more than a small measure of confidence. I don't particularly like the taste of pavement.

Also, I'm not sure I'd call a glue job that destroys a tire on removal a ten. I'd consider a perfect glue job something I can remove by hand (thumbs to insert a round bladed tool and pull tool to lift off glue) but would never roll off in cornering.

The real question is how good a bond is tire:basetape:dry <--> wet:dry:rim?

I tend to think that the wet application will soften the dry glue and bond very strongly with it. I'd like an understanding to the contrary if I am wrong.

The point is that there's a scale (I just made up) from 0 to 10 on how securely a tire is adhered to the rim, and 10 is the maximum possible. A 10 would hold the tire even on a folded wheel. A perfectly glued tire for most riding purposes is NOT a 10. More than 8 is probably too much, and less than 3 is not enough for anything besides limping home on a spare.

So I suggested that dry on dry is a 5 and wet on dry is a 6... you decide what your glue number is.
Then re-evaluate when you have to take it off.
If you used the wet tire glue-dry rim glue method (call it a 6) and you have to muscle off every inch of it when it's worn out... you can probably reduce to dry-dry=5. And if it comes off easier than you'd like, go up a number with another coat on the rim and some extra cure time.

It's possible that new wet glue will reactivate some of the old dried glue - it's a minor effect... the new glue just bonds better to whatever it touches.


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22840926)
More to the point, must the glue on the base tape have been wet very recently for the bond to be road worthy?

Well no, but road worthy is also a scale. Dry on dry would be road worthy for a recreational century in less than extreme heat... maybe not so for descending French Cols in August at 80kph.

MooneyBloke 03-28-23 09:26 PM

Ugh! How can I make myself clear? I'm trying to establish safe gluing practice with precisely NO waste. I do not think safety is relative here. Broken bones are not negotiable.

DiabloScott 03-28-23 09:29 PM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22843655)
Ugh! How can I make myself clear? I'm trying to establish safe gluing practice with precisely NO waste. I do not think safety is relative here. Broken bones are not negotiable.

Well I've answered your question three times now... I think you're not listening.

MooneyBloke 03-28-23 09:34 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22843659)
Well I've answered your question three times now... I think you're not listening.

I think you're sounding a little careless to me. That's why I keep punching back. When it comes to gluing sew-up there's a lot of folk wisdom from elders, but damn little hard science and engineering. It drives me nucking futz. What I really want is a clear reason wet glue to dry is a less than ideal bond for the sorts of adhesives we are handling? It seems as if it should be, and I need an explainer.

DiabloScott 03-28-23 09:56 PM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22843665)
I think you're sounding a little careless to me. That's why I keep punching back. When it comes to gluing sew-up there's a lot of folk wisdom from elders, but damn little hard science and engineering. It drives me nucking futz. What I really want is a clear reason wet glue to dry is a less than ideal bond for the sorts of adhesives we are handling? It seems as if it should be, and I need an explainer.

Stop thinking "ideal". Wet to dry is not as good of a bond as wet to wet simply because there's less active glue... but it might be good enough and only YOU can decide that. You could maybe get the same effect with using twice as much glue on only one surface but it would be messy.
The old dry glue is a benefit because the wet glue sticks to it better than to a bare smooth rim, not because the dry glue is doing any bonding.
You're right there's a lot of lore about this stuff, but nearly everyone agrees that you want the glue to be "boogery" when you pull up a deflated tire at the edge like this (doesn't apply to certain velodrome tires and glue).
More wet glue on the installation means more boogers. More boogers means stronger bond.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f058325e1.jpg
This is about a 6.


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