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-   -   Stiff frames (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1196544)

carleton 03-29-20 05:52 PM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21387874)
:O

That's a nice collection!
I've been calculating the reach and stack and I think I'll try the DF4 definitely.

Anyway, my main objective is to compete at a local level, and if possible, level up.
We have a very nice velodrome here in Donostia and it's never crowded in the morning when I train.

I found the pictures of the new DF5 I'll post them as soon as I reach the minimum 10 posts.

Thanks.

Get a DF3 over a DF4. The DF3 uses a standard 27.2mm seatpost.

There is one in the trade thread offered by a well-known and trustworthy member here: https://www.bikeforums.net/21306290-post135.html

...assuming it fits you.


Originally Posted by SynergyPro (Post 21388048)
Have you checked out the S1neo FP03 supposedly designed with input from Francois Pervis. French brand, available direct and withinyour price range.

by the way, the new koga is really really long!

I'd pass until I see more reviews and use. Even though Pervis is the spokesman, that doesn't mean he was involved with the development and testing. He might just be doing photo shoots with them for a check.

itturriko 03-30-20 04:53 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 21390401)
I'd pass until I see more reviews and use. Even though Pervis is the spokesman, that doesn't mean he was involved with the development and testing. He might just be doing photo shoots with them for a check.

I saw Pervis using the FP03 on Berlin 6 days series for the Keirin and 1vs1 duels. But he also used the LOOK for other events, so maybe it was pure marketing

colnago62 03-30-20 07:00 AM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21390910)
I saw Pervis using the FP03 on Berlin 6 days series for the Keirin and 1vs1 duels. But he also used the LOOK for other events, so maybe it was pure marketing

I didn’t see Pervis in Berlin this year.

topflightpro 03-30-20 07:44 AM

The DF5 is an open mold frame. You can pick it up from Velobike or iCan too. I would not wait on it.

And while Carleton is fond of the DF3s 27.2 round seatpost, they are not that easy to find. The 55 up for trade may be too small for you.

itturriko 03-30-20 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 21391101)
The DF5 is an open mold frame. You can pick it up from Velobike or iCan too. I would not wait on it.

And while Carleton is fond of the DF3s 27.2 round seatpost, they are not that easy to find. The 55 up for trade may be too small for you.

I don't think this is the same frame
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5822e4a09b.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1710ecba69.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4d40657971.png
front view

SynergyPro 03-30-20 01:11 PM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21389159)
I've heard that S1neo were using chinese frames, but I don't know if it's true but they look really nice

the FP02 is an OEM Frame that has bee used by others (Merckx for example). The FP01 is exclusive to them and comes with their own sprint handlebar and proprietary stem.

A couple years ago “twitchy” was what a track frame had to be. :) times change though.

Deef1908 03-30-20 01:41 PM


Originally Posted by SynergyPro (Post 21391863)
the FP02 is an OEM Frame that has bee used by others (Merckx for example). The FP01 is exclusive to them and comes with their own sprint handlebar and proprietary stem.

A couple years ago “twitchy” was what a track frame had to be. :) times change though.

and the FP03 Any idea about that one

gycho77 03-30-20 02:46 PM

That is chinese open mold frame. You can buy that in Aliexpress. I also uploaded better side view of that frame in this thread.
https://he.aliexpress.com/item/33058...archweb201603_

topflightpro 03-30-20 03:09 PM

Is that a PC8 out front on the Alpina bars in the third pic?

Screen doesn't look taped over, either.

itturriko 03-30-20 03:41 PM


Originally Posted by SynergyPro (Post 21391863)
the FP02 is an OEM Frame that has bee used by others (Merckx for example). The FP01 is exclusive to them and comes with their own sprint handlebar and proprietary stem.

A couple years ago “twitchy” was what a track frame had to be. :) times change though.

The FP01 was the aluminium frame and it was removed from the store.
The FP02 was also removed

and now they only have the FP03 with the integrated stem and handlebar. It costs 2400€

https://www.s1neo.com/store/en/track...collection.php

FP03 looks really nice but there is no feedback about it

gycho77 03-30-20 07:36 PM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21392119)
The FP01 was the aluminium frame and it was removed from the store.
The FP02 was also removed

and now they only have the FP03 with the integrated stem and handlebar. It costs 2400€

https://www.s1neo.com/store/en/track...collection.php

FP03 looks really nice but there is no feedback about it

I heard many great things about S1NEO track frame.
One of my friend told me that the new Bridgestone track frame is developed based on S1NEO frame.
If you go to Fukaya(Japan)'s instagram, you can see him using S1NEO track frame before he got the new bridgestone.

700wheel 03-31-20 09:15 AM

Several local riders ride the Dixie Flyer.
BTB Track ? Dixie Flyer Bicycles

Others on this forum have reported quality issues but no problems reported by local riders.

I do not know if they ship overseas.

Deef1908 03-31-20 12:03 PM


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 21392066)
Is that a PC8 out front on the Alpina bars in the third pic?

Screen doesn't look taped over, either.

that’s strange because as per uci rules your not allowed to have this on your handlebars

SynergyPro 03-31-20 03:19 PM


Originally Posted by 700wheel (Post 21393246)
Several local riders ride the Dixie Flyer.
BTB Track ? Dixie Flyer Bicycles

Others on this forum have reported quality issues but no problems reported by local riders.

I do not know if they ship overseas.

they do. Service is excellent.

pierrej 04-01-20 12:56 AM

I think OP should ride their current bike unless it doesn't fit.
Can you describe what you mean by not stiff enough though?
Most alloy frames would still be stiff enough for all but the strongest riders in the world and even then it wouldn't be by much, carbon is usually chosen for aero purposes.


Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 21385214)
That seems to me like you are looking at new only? If so, divert some attention to the 2nd hand market across Europe. Cervelo is a good frame no doubt, but it just isn't up to the same stiffness standards as many of the other options aimed at sprinters. Just take a look at how long it took Cervelo to come to terms with the stiffness/strength requirements of the GB sprint squad with the T5. Felt and Dolan are very good options that are (or should be) relatively cheap as well as the other options mentioned above. You should definitely be able to find a 2nd hand look that fits in your price range

The issues with the t5 were mostly to do with the weight target of the bike, they wanted them all to be 6.8kg bikes built up. Also I'm lead to believe they weren't actually built by Cervelo but a local english company whose name escapes me but might be doing the Hope bikes as well. From memory I think even Cav cracked his frame

SynergyPro 04-01-20 04:47 AM


Originally Posted by pierrej (Post 21394645)
I think OP should ride their current bike unless it doesn't fit.
Can you describe what you mean by not stiff enough though?
Most alloy frames would still be stiff enough for all but the strongest riders in the world and even then it wouldn't be by much, carbon is usually chosen for aero purposes.


The issues with the t5 were mostly to do with the weight target of the bike, they wanted them all to be 6.8kg bikes built up. Also I'm lead to believe they weren't actually built by Cervelo but a local english company whose name escapes me but might be doing the Hope bikes as well. From memory I think even Cav cracked his frame

yes a British company specialising in boats and F1 stuff. Supposedly they were too stiff in the bb, so developed cracks. Think about it as how a bit of elasticity helps to reduce stress.
the second generation they got it right, but I heard rumours they were made by cervelo in the us facility that produced the r5ca and some forks for them. (Expensive!)

Carbon can definitely be made stiffer than alloy.
However I think you can get a alloy frame that’s sufficient for us amateurs.
i ride a first gen T3 and sure my old axman frame was stiffer (and heavier) but I’m not missing anything

topflightpro 04-01-20 08:17 AM


Originally Posted by pierrej (Post 21394645)
I think OP should ride their current bike unless it doesn't fit.
Can you describe what you mean by not stiff enough though?
Most alloy frames would still be stiff enough for all but the strongest riders in the world and even then it wouldn't be by much, carbon is usually chosen for aero purposes.

I agree with this. Looking at the pic he posted of the bike in the photos thread, it doesn't look like he is at the limits of the frame sizing.

That said, I can say when I went from my Felt Tk2 to my Dolan DF4, I did notice quite a difference in handling on the track, but my understanding is that has less to do with stiffness and more to do with the geometry of the frames.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a93f2a8d8f.jpg

2500W 04-03-20 07:16 AM

A tangible difference between the carbon and aluminium frame builds is likely the typical geometry they offer rather than their stiffness.

Carbon frames are generally longer in reach and front-centre distance. Look T20 of size M has a 427mm reach and Dolan DF4 sz 55 -- 414mm. Some exceptions include Bridgestone and S1Neo that are really short.

Very few alloy frames resemble this new geometry, for example Ribble Eliminator AL sz M and Ridley Arena Alloy sz M have a reach of 419 and 412 mm, respectively.

Both longer reach and longer front wheelbase is a trend. It would look very strange indeed to mount Glaetzer on Huebner's short and ugly Texima.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...Q_zZW&usqp=CAU https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...GV1pA&usqp=CAU

DMC707 04-06-20 09:04 AM


Originally Posted by topflightpro (Post 21394971)
I agree with this. Looking at the pic he posted of the bike in the photos thread, it doesn't look like he is at the limits of the frame sizing.

That said, I can say when I went from my Felt Tk2 to my Dolan DF4, I did notice quite a difference in handling on the track, but my understanding is that has less to do with stiffness and more to do with the geometry of the frames.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a93f2a8d8f.jpg


That frame is stiff enough - and as said - wont hold anyone back in Cat 3-4-5 level competition (US categories ), but it does look like it has relaxed all-rounder type geometry in those photos compared to a more sprint oriented machine

So while the bike itself wont hold most novices back too much --there are probably more task oriented machines out there for not a lot of coin

nuttynutcase 04-12-20 06:57 AM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21383568)
I'm a new track cyclist.
I was a 400m hurdles athlete but due to injuries I was forced to quit.
I did a test with a coach and he thought i was able to compete on sprint events. I did 14.0 on my first ever standing 150m start.
I have an aluminium BMC trackmachine 02(I will post the picture as soon as I can post them) but it's not as stiff as I could like.
My budget is 3000 dollar more or less to buy a frame.
I saw that the Cervelo T4 is around 2800 in some stores.
Is it stiff enough for me? because I saw that pros only use it for Omnium.
Any other stiff frame?

Thank you all!

I've got a Cervelo T4 size 51 (used), could post to you as well. I've tried Dolan DF4, Cervelo T4, BT Blade, Look R96. The 'endurance' frameset were 'easier' to ride with.

Darren

itturriko 04-16-20 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by nuttynutcase (Post 21413902)
I've got a Cervelo T4 size 51 (used), could post to you as well. I've tried Dolan DF4, Cervelo T4, BT Blade, Look R96. The 'endurance' frameset were 'easier' to ride with.

Darren

And what about stiffness? Did you notice any difference between those frames? T4 vs DF4 for example (I think that is obvious that BT and R96 are stiffer)
I guess you did standing starts.
I think I'll go for the T4 but I saw a cheap BMC Trackmachine 01

gycho77 04-16-20 06:42 PM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21421830)
And what about stiffness? Did you notice any difference between those frames? T4 vs DF4 for example (I think that is obvious that BT and R96 are stiffer)
I guess you did standing starts.
I think I'll go for the T4 but I saw a cheap BMC Trackmachine 01

The reason many members recommend Dolan DF4 is because of the geometry.
If you read the old posts, many track sprinters take the geometry very seriously.
Such as headtube angle, fork offset and, BB drop.
Also, if you use Cervelo T4, you will have hard time fitting big chainrings, crankarm, and some wheels.
Cervelo T4 is known to have clearance issues.

To add on about the stiffness on the track frames
Most of carbon track frames are stiffer than carbon road frame.
So if you are not coming from BMX, you do not have to worry about the stiffness.

btw not all BT are stiffer than Look R96
according to my friend Look R96 is stiffer than BT Blade and Ultra

pierrej 04-17-20 04:00 AM


Originally Posted by gycho77 (Post 21422385)
btw not all BT are stiffer than Look R96
according to my friend Look R96 is stiffer than BT Blade and Ultra

They're pursuit bikes to be fair, though they were stiff enough for a dual world champion too

gycho77 04-17-20 04:42 AM


Originally Posted by pierrej (Post 21422844)
They're pursuit bikes to be fair, though they were stiff enough for a dual world champion too

Thank you for mentioning that.👍
Although BT Ultra and Blade are not “super stiff” frame, it doesn’t mean that it’s a bad frame.
I just wanted people to know that not all BT frames are stiffer than Look.

itturriko 04-17-20 07:34 PM


Originally Posted by gycho77 (Post 21422385)
The reason many members recommend Dolan DF4 is because of the geometry.
If you read the old posts, many track sprinters take the geometry very seriously.
Such as headtube angle, fork offset and, BB drop.
Also, if you use Cervelo T4, you will have hard time fitting big chainrings, crankarm, and some wheels.
Cervelo T4 is known to have clearance issues.

To add on about the stiffness on the track frames
Most of carbon track frames are stiffer than carbon road frame.
So if you are not coming from BMX, you do not have to worry about the stiffness.

btw not all BT are stiffer than Look R96
according to my friend Look R96 is stiffer than BT Blade and Ultra

Finally I’ll buy the frame next week, but I’m still in doubt and still don’t know 100% which one is better.

For sprint, team sprint and kilo which one would be your pick?
T4 or BMC trackmachine 01?

BMC is a really nice bike but there is no feedback. Kung used it for individual and team pursuit but there are no more pro riders using it

thanks!


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