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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Stadjer 07-26-16 08:36 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18939260)
You've encountered linked brakes? I've not seen that on a bicycle before! Moto Guzzi had a patent for linked brakes on their motorbikes. IOW, yes, rod brakes allow for that, at least on my machine (I've had two) and every machine I've seen.

I have only encountered linked brakes, when rod operated. I have owned 4 and ridden a few more, and they were all linked, all but one were the same brand. It's probably a local thing, to accomodate one handed riding. That brake design is much older than the cell phone of course, but it was probably because it was a luxury that replaced the coaster brake and therefore had to allow for one handed riding. Or it was considered safer, with the right adjustment of the brake balance.

But the Raleigh system looked the same, except for the rim brakes, so I wondered whether it was split. Those Guzzi's are hydraulicly linked, or just rod operated?

clubman 07-26-16 08:37 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18939260)
I've not experienced that on my BSA Golden Deluxe. No matter how much braking action I ask of the rear wheel, I don't get an uncontrolled braking.

I must be sniffing glue, the stirrups are not before the stays!
This was my pre war Hercules that stopped fairly well but it did have 26" wheels which may have helped the braking action. I loved the slack angle ride.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3...les%2Bcopy.jpg

Salubrious 07-26-16 09:12 AM


Originally Posted by Stadjer (Post 18939348)
I have only encountered linked brakes, when rod operated. I have owned 4 and ridden a few more, and they were all linked, all but one were the same brand. It's probably a local thing, to accomodate one handed riding. That brake design is much older than the cell phone of course, but it was probably because it was a luxury that replaced the coaster brake and therefore had to allow for one handed riding. Or it was considered safer, with the right adjustment of the brake balance.

But the Raleigh system looked the same, except for the rim brakes, so I wondered whether it was split. Those Guzzi's are hydraulicly linked, or just rod operated?

Rod brakes were what was before there were cable operated brakes. The template for the Raleigh Dawn Tourist and the like (your typical rod brake machine with slack geometry) was designed for military service in World War 1.

The Guzzi used a hydraulic system. They can be the devil to bleed properly!

browngw 07-26-16 09:20 AM

4 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18939277)
What a gorgeous bicycle! :love:

More pictures, please?


Thanks @DQRider. I fell in love with this bike a couple of years ago at the Canadian Vintage Bicycle Show and scooped it up for the healthy sum of $165.00. It had a cheapo black molded saddle and a few scratches and likely hard original tires. I treated it to a new B67, the Delta Cruisers, Velo Bitz pump pegs, MEC Audax bags and a Portland Design Works bell. It is a 23" frame (my size) and the bike I wanted as a teen. I'm riding it more and more lately but do not like the 18 tooth cog. Geared a little too high. I prefer the 22 cog on my DL1. You can see more here http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...e-capsule.html
1971 Robin Hood 3 Speed "Sports Model" Time Capsule

Stadjer 07-27-16 08:16 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18939456)
Rod brakes were what was before there were cable operated brakes. The template for the Raleigh Dawn Tourist and the like (your typical rod brake machine with slack geometry) was designed for military service in World War 1.

The Guzzi used a hydraulic system. They can be the devil to bleed properly!

Rod brakes are still produced and have a few advantages over cables. I like the army bikes, found some nice reads, bikes were already used in the Boer war, by both sides. No 3-speeds though, or maybe just for the higher ranks in the 30's.

slowtostart 07-27-16 04:08 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 18935389)
I took my DL-1 out for a 3-mile test run. I had intended to go longer than that, but realized that the shifter housing was once again creeping past the fulcrum sleeve, leaving me with high gear only. It wasn't a hilly route, but, still, a couple of lower gears would be nice. The braking is reasonably sorted out now though the front rim isn't exactly round so it pulsates somewhat violently as I slow down. But it does slow me down! Once back home, I popped in a brand new plastic fulcrum sleeve, which should be good to go for another 25 years. I'm thinking I'll commute on this bike tomorrow (6 miles round trip) and see how it feels.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-g...0/IMG_0675.JPG

Nice seat bag!

BigChief 07-28-16 08:08 AM

I think I can explain an inconsistency of my rod brake test. When I first installed my new Kool Stop inserts, trailing position, they contacted the rim perfectly without needing any dressing of the pad tops. Now that I reversed the extension arms to mount the pads in the correct leading position, the right side contacts before the left. I didn't notice this before. So, I really need to dress off the right side pad before I can make an accurate assessment of leading position pad mounting. Still, Raleigh engineers did add these extension arms to lower the braking pressure of the pads against the rims. The same effect can be had by using less pressure on the hand lever while braking. If you modified the pad holders or found different holders with slightly longer bolts, you could mount them directly on the stirrup with no offset and have a stronger front brake. Something to consider.

Salubrious 07-28-16 09:37 AM

@ BigChief My BSA has arms that place the brake pads just before the stirrup in the front, just FWIW. They're a pretty rugged assembly and that is where I found the original pads. I'm pretty sure this is done to increase braking power. I've seen similar things done in motorbike drum brakes, called 'leading brake shoes'.

BigChief 07-28-16 11:43 AM

That may be true. I'll report back after I do a proper test. My last test was false because the pads were uneven. That alone would have produced poor results.

BigChief 07-30-16 06:56 AM

Now, it's finished. All the bugs are worked out. Chased the shifting hangup to burrs and rough surfaces on the edges of the driver legs and clutch. Still needs a new indicator pin, but roadsters need part number 126 for the longer 6 1/4" axle. Luckily, found some on the bay. The brakes on this bike were never right. Had to reform the left rear stirrup guide and swap the front brake arms around to get the pads in the correct leading position. Then, I could set up the brakes and dress off the pads for even contact. Note: it helps to have emery cloth for this. I had to use sand paper and it was a pest to use. While the bike is on the rack, I rip emery cloth, around 280 grit, into strips, hold it against the rim, put gentle pressure on the brake lever and draw it through. I also geared it down with a 22T cog from the original 16T. So, I had my first real ride this morning, mostly on dirt roads. These bikes are really nice once you get things working right. It was a very pleasant ride, didn't want to stop, but chores were waiting :(
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...72roadster.jpg

arex 07-30-16 09:32 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18948337)
Now, it's finished. All the bugs are worked out. Chased the shifting hangup to burrs and rough surfaces on the edges of the driver legs and clutch. Still needs a new indicator pin, but roadsters need part number 126 for the longer 6 1/4" axle. Luckily, found some on the bay. The brakes on this bike were never right. Had to reform the left rear stirrup guide and swap the front brake arms around to get the pads in the correct leading position. Then, I could set up the brakes and dress off the pads for even contact. Note: it helps to have emery cloth for this. I had to use sand paper and it was a pest to use. While the bike is on the rack, I rip emery cloth, around 280 grit, into strips, hold it against the rim, put gentle pressure on the brake lever and draw it through. I also geared it down with a 22T cog from the original 16T. So, I had my first real ride this morning, mostly on dirt roads. These bikes are really nice once you get things working right. It was a very pleasant ride, didn't want to stop, but chores were waiting :(
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...72roadster.jpg

That's friggin' beautiful. What brake pads are you using?

BigChief 07-30-16 10:27 AM

I'm using salmon Kool Stop inserts. I'm happy with em, although the Fibrax might be the better choice, I was trying to keep investment in this bike down. But now, I think it's a keeper. BTW, DQRider was correct about the leading position for the front pads. Mounted trailing, they're weak, mounted center, they're grabby and lock easily on gravel. Leading with a careful setup is the way to go.

Quebber 07-30-16 03:30 PM

Beauty

nlerner 07-30-16 03:57 PM

Very nice, @BigChief!

AngeloDolce 07-30-16 11:08 PM

P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; **

Originally Posted by Stadjer (Post 18937519)
Yes, but aren't these rods operating both brakes at the same time? Mine are, but I have different type. The weight transfer is only happening when the bike actually slows down, not by just applying the brakes. If the front wheel slips over a slippery surface, there's hardly any weight transfer except your bodyweight moving in the direction of that surface.

....

@Stadjer,

I suspect that you are looking at Gazelle bicycles in the Netherlands, while other posters are looking at Raleigh bicycles in the US. They both have rod brakes, but the handlebars and rod attachments work differently.

I've ridden 1950's-70's Raleighs with (rod) stirrup brakes, I also have 1960's Rudges and Gazelles with rod activated drum brakes. The English made bicycles (Raleighs and Rudges) have separate rods, guides, and attachments for the front and rear brakes. Using one brake does not affect the other.

The brake levers on the Gazelles are joined in the center of the handlebars, so that moving either brake lever applies both brakes. The connections to the front and rear brakes are joined at the handlebar, so it is not possible to use one brake without the other.

Incidentally, I bought the Rudges from a Dutch engineer that moved to the US. They had English handlebars for rod brakes, but the drum brakes preferred in the Netherlands where it was sold.

AngeloDolce 07-30-16 11:11 PM

rod Brake photos - English and Dutch
 
2 Attachment(s)
I've attached a photo of the Rudge and Gazelle handlebar attachments for the brake rods

Stadjer 07-31-16 03:44 AM


Originally Posted by AngeloDolce (Post 18949672)
P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; **
@Stadjer,

I suspect that you are looking at Gazelle bicycles in the Netherlands, while other posters are looking at Raleigh bicycles in the US. They both have rod brakes, but the handlebars and rod attachments work differently.

I've ridden 1950's-70's Raleighs with (rod) stirrup brakes, I also have 1960's Rudges and Gazelles with rod activated drum brakes. The English made bicycles (Raleighs and Rudges) have separate rods, guides, and attachments for the front and rear brakes. Using one brake does not affect the other.

The brake levers on the Gazelles are joined in the center of the handlebars, so that moving either brake lever applies both brakes. The connections to the front and rear brakes are joined at the handlebar, so it is not possible to use one brake without the other.

Incidentally, I bought the Rudges from a Dutch engineer that moved to the US. They had English handlebars for rod brakes, but the drum brakes preferred in the Netherlands where it was sold.

Yes, that's why I asked. The rod mechanism looks very much alike and I couldn't make it out from the pictures. Also the linked brakes often look like they could be applied seperately at first glance. I really wonder what the design considerations were for both, regarding comfort (one handed braking), brake balance and safety on slippery services. One advantage of rim brakes is that if the road is slippery from rain the rims are to and won't lock the front wheel that easily, but on ice it doesn't work like that.

bazil4696 07-31-16 11:12 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Hullo, gentlemen!
I'm a newbie here, but i've lurked for a long time. I signed up but never seemed to complete the regisration and wasn't allowed to post.
So here goes..
Here's my '85 Gazelle, with a sturmey archer three speed and rod actuated drum brakes. The tyres are schwalbes and the saddlebags were a score from the Branford bike show a few years ago.

dweenk 07-31-16 12:42 PM

Sports "Path Racer"
 
8 Attachment(s)
I have a couple of large frame Raleigh Sports - one that is in fantastic condition and one that came without fenders, chain guard and in rough shape. I spent the winter and early spring working on the latter, and by mid summer it was in decent shape but it just didn't excite me. Finding fenders and a chain guard with similar color and patina was not working out, so I decided to make it a "Path Racer". I still need to reverse the saddle clamp so I can slide it back a bit more, and perhaps find a longer reach stem. Here are some photos...

bazil4696 07-31-16 03:25 PM

"73 Superbe
 
4 Attachment(s)
Here's how it starts.... an aquaintance says he's got one of them bikes with the fenders like my '71 superbe, and I should buy it...

"Okay. Hom much?"
He tells me a price and I'm sold, sight unseen... CHEEP!
Let's go get it now, I plead
Sure enough, it is what he says it is, and I pay him, and drive off with another project in my pickup.
Stupid, you do not need another "never gonna get to it"

But it was a good deal... so, don't wait, see if it's a parts supply, or is this gonna get done soon?
I pull apart the AW, after checking the date code, and proceed to reassemble a decent IGH and i'm now happy with my progress... it'll be a flipper, I might make a couple bucks on it...
I loaded it on pickup, and head to the Brantford vintage bike show, bringing six stablemates, not all for sale, but I always bring a truckload, so I gotta be real tickled, or sell something, to bring home new projects.
I found a pair of Bluemels fenders, that might steer me in a path I never though about with this new project, if I dont sell it today...
No sale. When I got back, I shined up the fenders, and relaced a dead AW I had laying in a parts bin with an aluminum rim I bought a while back, along with it's front sister... Now we got an aluminum set of rims, and some sporty fenders. Okay. a path racer. Handlebars upside down...now tyres... My LBS had some Continental City rides, so that was her new shoes. A late model gel seat adds the comfort I like to ride around in.
Maiden 10 km run to a pub to check out how I like this 21 tooth sprocket, and if 3 pawls springs will work...both are making me happy.
One spring was broken when I took this hub apart, so, instead of cannabalizing a good functioning hub, I'll look for a spare spring.I'll try it with three, if I dont pound hard, it should work, and does... I dont notice it enough to ever worry about. but i've since bought a parts hub, and the last 6 pawl springs "The urbane Cyclist" in Toronto had.

bazil4696 07-31-16 03:32 PM

Now the stupid **** starts goin through my head...Should I lace the front rim for a dynohub?
or do I strip off the lights, and just leave it bare? Authenic to path style bikes?
I put a rack and luggage trunk on for the Toronto Vintage Bike show, But I wanted to ride it in the city

gster 07-31-16 03:45 PM

Hercules Question
 
2 Attachment(s)
This Hercules is for sale locally.
It appears to have an A Type 0 or 3 hub.
Any idea on a date?
Thanks

BigChief 07-31-16 04:48 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 18950786)
This Hercules is for sale locally.
It appears to have an A Type 0 or 3 hub.
Any idea on a date?
Thanks

I do know that the Raleigh made Hercules started in 1960. Any pre Raleigh Herc is a good find IMO. I wonder if that's painted over. Can't tell from the photo, but you would expect some transfers on the frame. Cool bike though. I'll guess somewhere in the 50s

DQRider 07-31-16 04:56 PM

I went back to the Hastings trail again today, but this time I brought a friend. He owns this old Dunelt, in a beautiful red color, that I couldn't wait to point my lens at. I rode my Velo de Ville today, and gave the DL1 some rest.

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...pslyvfitlf.png

The light today was diffused by clouds most of the time, and it lent a gentle quality to the light. After this, we went for brunch. Another excellent ride!

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/...psvroke5xy.png

noglider 07-31-16 07:08 PM

Welcome, @bazil4696! Rod actuated drum brakes seem like a better idea than those under-rim brakes which I never liked.


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