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-   -   How simply do you live? (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=163801)

iron.wren 02-07-11 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by hnsq (Post 12189387)
I understand the philosophy of simplicity, however observing the difference between being financially responsible and voluntarily choosing to have nothing when you can responsibly afford to have a few 'things' is something I do not understand. To me, that distinction seems like a cry for attention, a way to stand out.

Simplicity is not just "getting rid of Possessions" its also a mindset and many more things. The average Joe walking down the street will not know if you only have 1 possession or a million by just looking at you. Now if you are telling everybody how much you do not own and how better you are, then that is not it. Living in simplicity is not a cry for attention unless if you want to make it that way. If somebody ask you why you only have so much: just politely and respectfully tell them you want to get rid of the clutter for yourself while still respecting the other person. I do not know if you are a Christian or someone who reads the bible but in it Jesus tells the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. The Pharisee stands in the middle of the temple and loudly proclaims how great he is while the Tax Collector is in the corner by himself whispering asking for forgiveness. Though the parable is on humility. It still hold light with dealing with simplicity. You do not have to be proclaiming you are trying to live in simplicity. Also most of this is done in private such as your own home and also in your Mind. I recommend picking up Richard Foster's Book: Celebration of The Disciplines and read Chapter 6 which is on Simplicity. Though it is from the Christian Point of view there is great information for a person from any walk of life

Roody 02-07-11 01:40 PM


Originally Posted by hnsq (Post 12189387)
Since I am actually taking the time to try and learn something, could you explain it to me?

I understand the philosophy of simplicity, however observing the difference between being financially responsible and voluntarily choosing to have nothing when you can responsibly afford to have a few 'things' is something I do not understand. To me, that distinction seems like a cry for attention, a way to stand out. I am asking the question because I am trying to learn from a perspective very differently from my own. Can you help me out?


To schwinnbikelove, Smallwheels and Platy, your posts were very helpful. I enjoyed them and thank you.

There's a lot to read on this thread, including the post just above this one. I also found Thoreau (especially Walden) and the Buddha's teachings to be particularly helpful.

Probably the best bet is to just start thinking about life on your own. Stop worrying too much about what others (even Thoreau and Buddha) think, and apply your thoughts to your own life.

You seem to be starting from a very critical viewpoint, so I doubt you'll learn much. But good luck anyway.

Curious LeTour 02-07-11 10:26 PM


Originally Posted by Platy (Post 12179688)
One big complication is that people occasionally change their minds about what kind of lives they want to lead. I think this is not at all unusual. In the past I've discarded things when transitioning from one kind of life to another, then years later I'd wish I had them back. I don't really know the wisest way to handle that problem.

I agree with all of what you wrote on this reply, but these couple of sentences stood out to me. I also have had complications with switching lifestyles. I haven't made drastic switches, but I've still had trouble making some big lifestyle decisions about lifestyle choices.

schwinnbikelove 02-08-11 03:48 AM

What items are REQUIRED?
 
I don't want to derail this too much now that it's on a roll again, but I've been looking at some "100 item" lists recently and I've gotten to thinking...


Assuming someone is to be a productive member of society, excluding food, clothing, and shelter, what are the basic "belongings" that we are more or less required to have?

ID

Social Security card

*ATM card

*credit card

*another picture ID?

*phone (number)

tax information

*Titles and registration for vehicles owned

*proof of insurance for said vehicles


*optional


This is my quick list I came up with.
In my own personal journey, I am interested in building up a list of items I will need, or want to keep, as oppossed to using a process of elimination, in order for the end result to be more drastic. :eek:


This should prove to be an interesting "experiment" if nothing else.

twobadfish 02-08-11 04:08 AM


Originally Posted by Platy (Post 12179922)
I'd imagine a pet could be part of a simple life. It's just that a person has to mindfully consider the benefits and consequences. I've seen scruffy street guys sitting on curbs sharing sandwiches with their dogs. I've also seen family dogs kinda forgotten and left to their own devices in the back yards of big suburban houses. Which dog would you rather be?

I'd rather be with the homeless guy. Dogs need companionship.

009jim 02-08-11 04:24 AM

Does anyone else have this experience? Whenever I walk or cycle I find myself looking at potential places to sleep out. Like I have this fascination of being a homeless dude on the street and living really basic. I always pick out areas where it would be dry and maybe warmer. I even look at street garden beds and I have this feeling it would be so comfortable to lie on them and just have a nap. I grew up in the county way out back and so this may just be that I don't like being cooped up in and office. Anyway I wonder if I'll lose my grip one day and just become a homeless person. You don't even have to be crazy because I knew one guy and he was quite smart but he lived under our church. You could talk to him about literature and stuff and he was well spoken.

Smallwheels 02-08-11 10:46 AM

009jim I've seen videos of the voluntarily homeless. The term homeless doesn't seem to fit if it is voluntary. The videos I watched were about survival skills. On a blog I was introduced to a famous homeless guy who gave up using money and the world of consumerism. He writes a blog about some of his experiences. Some of it is very enlightening and other bits of it don't quite jibe with the whole vibe of the blog. For that reason I didn't read all of it.

Living such a way with only the possessions one can carry doesn't seem desirable to me. Having the skill to do it well is admirable. Having the mental outlook to do it is amazing. If it could be done without worries about food or shelter that would seem to be a very liberated lifestyle. I'm not saying that it could only be done because of being poor. What if one had money and just traveled that way. The whole world would be open. If one had to stay in one location due to a job then living without regular shelter or possessions wouldn't make sense to me.

Here is the blog: http://zerocurrency.blogspot.com/

Platy 02-08-11 11:30 AM

I think homelessness is to simple living as anorexia is to good nutrition. Beyond a certain point, I think stripping down one's life makes it more complicated.

The link smallwheels posted above mentions the Japanese concept of wabi sabi. I looked it up and thought it was interesting to read about.

musikguy 02-08-11 11:58 AM


Originally Posted by Platy (Post 12195405)
I think homelessness is to simple living as anorexia is to good nutrition. Beyond a certain point, I think stripping down one's life makes it more complicated.

Respectfully disagreeing to the statement (but not the opinion). I know of many examples where this doesn't seem to be true. I've read stories on this board of people touring or living in the desert/woods/swamp with their bike and a change of clothes. They report to be happy and uncomplicated.

Many of the gurus in India live homeless. They believe the lack of possessions is what brings them closer to being at peace with the Earth and the soul.

Even Peace Pilgrim here in the states used to travel across the country and back essentially homeless with a backpack spreading the work of peace to her fellow man and living with only what she needed to get through the day.

None of these people seem to have a more complicated life because they crossed the 'threshold' of what is acceptably simple. I just wanted to point this out, not to say your opinion is wrong (or that mine is right) but to offer a broader examination of people who do find peace and uncomplicated lives with the most extremes of simplicity.

By the way, I ride a Jamis Coda around Austin everyday and I am working towards simplifying my life in a way that works for my wife and I!

Roody 02-08-11 02:21 PM


Originally Posted by 009jim (Post 12194117)
Does anyone else have this experience? Whenever I walk or cycle I find myself looking at potential places to sleep out. Like I have this fascination of being a homeless dude on the street and living really basic. I always pick out areas where it would be dry and maybe warmer. I even look at street garden beds and I have this feeling it would be so comfortable to lie on them and just have a nap. I grew up in the county way out back and so this may just be that I don't like being cooped up in and office. Anyway I wonder if I'll lose my grip one day and just become a homeless person. You don't even have to be crazy because I knew one guy and he was quite smart but he lived under our church. You could talk to him about literature and stuff and he was well spoken.

I could see doing this for religious or spiritual reasons, but not much else. Jesus said his disciples should sell what they have and give the money to the poor. Buddha established an order of monks who, 2,500 years later, still own nothing but one change of clothing and a bowl.

"Lose my grip" is an interesting choice of words. Were you thinking about the most common meaning: lose your grip on sanity? Or were you thinking more about losing your grip of your possessions and/or your attachment to social conventions?

I was homeless and "sleeping rough" for a short time. One guy I met said he hadn't slept indoors in several years. He visited his sister every year. Even though she had a good bed for him, he always insisted on sleeping in her back yard instead.

Platy 02-08-11 04:39 PM


Originally Posted by 009jim (Post 12194117)
Does anyone else have this experience? Whenever I walk or cycle I find myself looking at potential places to sleep out...

I have had that random thought from time to time, mainly when I'm out cycling. I don't know where it comes from or what motivates it. My impression is that it came from reading about bike touring and stealth camping. For me personally, the main obstacle to bike touring is not having a known, guaranteed place to sleep every night. Maybe seeing a nice potential stealth camping place provokes the thought "if I could just find a place like that at every stop, a long bike tour would be easy". So whether that's the explanation or not, I thought 009jim would appreciate the feedback.

musikguy 02-09-11 08:44 AM


Originally Posted by hnsq (Post 12134927)
why is it necessarily a good and noble thing to have less 'stuff'?

It's not. At least not to me. It's more about a choice to make me happier, more in touch with the people around me and with nature.
I'm sure a lot of people wear it like a badge of honor like they do with everything else, but for those who are serious about living simply, it's like being a vegetarian or meditating. It's a conscious decision to not fall into a trap of believing you need something that you really don't. With less possessions and less clutter in my life I don't have a need to work as much which leads to more time with my family. This leads to a much happier and healthier life than if I had worked really hard for a bunch of stuff that, although may be fun, takes me out of my life (even if briefly).

Now some people won't really see this point of view because to them, the possessions in question might be really fun, useful, or shiney. But once you made that click in your head that your not that interested in the most fun, useful, or shiney gadget and all you really want is a chance to ride and spend time with your loved ones, then the simple life starts to make more and more sense.

It isn't for everyone, but for someone like me it was a real eye opener. I felt a sense of having been lied to by those around me growing up who taught me to crave and buy all the latest stuff. It's actually liberating to realize that I don't need any of that stuff. The things I love love me back. And yes, I believe my bike loves me back.

bigjim1 02-09-11 05:10 PM


Does anyone else have this experience? Whenever I walk or cycle I find myself looking at potential places to sleep out. Like I have this fascination of being a homeless dude on the street and living really basic. I always pick out areas where it would be dry and maybe warmer. I even look at street garden beds and I have this feeling it would be so comfortable to lie on them and just have a nap.
And I thought it was just me who did this. I even check out trees to see where I could swing a hammock. Don't tell my wife. She already thinks I'm crazy.

schwinnbikelove 02-09-11 11:58 PM


Originally Posted by 009jim (Post 12194117)
I find myself looking at potential places to sleep out.

Perhaps you do this because subconsciously, you realize it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan. You never know.

In all seriousness!!

Curious LeTour 02-10-11 12:03 AM

When I see a parcel of undeveloped land in the city I sometimes look at the geography of it and wonder where a small in-ground dwelling could be built. I also sometimes imagine gorilla gardening, or planting gardens on other pieces of land that I consider a waste of space (even if it already has a building on it :) ).

I certainly imagine what it would be to lie down and relax in the small cozy shelter. I know my thoughts have been inspired by reading the book Radical Simplicity by Dan Price.

wahoonc 02-10-11 03:56 AM

When I am riding or driving along roads I am always looking at an area and evaluating it for stealth camping, as well as deciding if the road is suitable for cycle use...

Aaron :)

hnsq 02-10-11 07:48 AM


Originally Posted by iron.wren (Post 12190990)
Simplicity is not just "getting rid of Possessions" its also a mindset and many more things. The average Joe walking down the street will not know if you only have 1 possession or a million by just looking at you. Now if you are telling everybody how much you do not own and how better you are, then that is not it. Living in simplicity is not a cry for attention unless if you want to make it that way. If somebody ask you why you only have so much: just politely and respectfully tell them you want to get rid of the clutter for yourself while still respecting the other person. I do not know if you are a Christian or someone who reads the bible but in it Jesus tells the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. The Pharisee stands in the middle of the temple and loudly proclaims how great he is while the Tax Collector is in the corner by himself whispering asking for forgiveness. Though the parable is on humility. It still hold light with dealing with simplicity. You do not have to be proclaiming you are trying to live in simplicity. Also most of this is done in private such as your own home and also in your Mind. I recommend picking up Richard Foster's Book: Celebration of The Disciplines and read Chapter 6 which is on Simplicity. Though it is from the Christian Point of view there is great information for a person from any walk of life

Thanks for the book recommendation, I will definitely check it out. On the other hand though, isn't crying 'look at me, I am getting by with so much less than the rest of you' just as bad?


Originally Posted by Roody (Post 12191165)
There's a lot to read on this thread, including the post just above this one. I also found Thoreau (especially Walden) and the Buddha's teachings to be particularly helpful.

Probably the best bet is to just start thinking about life on your own. Stop worrying too much about what others (even Thoreau and Buddha) think, and apply your thoughts to your own life.

You seem to be starting from a very critical viewpoint, so I doubt you'll learn much. But good luck anyway.

You call me critical and yet don't want to offer advice, and say you 'doubt I will learn much' without knowing a single thing about me? Pot, meet kettle. Look in the mirror sometime champ, you might be disturbed by what you see.

I have read Walden, I have studied buddhism, hell, for a few months I voluntarily lived out of a tent in Wyoming, where everything I owned could fit in a backpack. It was enjoyable, I loved it, but I also don't see the problem with 'stuff'.

If I buy a TV, am I buying it because all of my friends have one? That is bad. Am I buying it because I simply enjoy watching TV? That is more than OK. Giving in to peer pressure happens with all groups of people.

Are you pairing down your possessions because you will be happier doing that? Great! Good for you. Or are you doing it because you want to fit into a certain crowd that you read about online? In that case, there is a problem.

Smallwheels 02-10-11 11:33 AM

You Do Understand
 

Originally Posted by hnsq (Post 12204331)
If I buy a TV, am I buying it because all of my friends have one? That is bad. Am I buying it because I simply enjoy watching TV? That is more than OK. Giving in to peer pressure happens with all groups of people.

Are you pairing down your possessions because you will be happier doing that? Great! Good for you. Or are you doing it because you want to fit into a certain crowd that you read about online? In that case, there is a problem.

It's just that simple. Some of us are pairing down our possessions because we will be happier doing it.

There are no people in my daily life who are at all interested in having fewer things and pairing down to just essentials. The only people with whom I communicate about this topic are on a couple of forums. It might be the same with some of the others here since we're a rare breed (though our ranks are growing). I don't think anybody here needs to impress the others on the Living Car Free forum.

Hnsq is right to say some people do things to fit in. I very much doubt anybody not interested in living simply would get rid of some of their stuff just to fit in on an online forum.

It's a good thing that many people all at once aren't adopting the simple lifestyle, otherwise the US economy would temporarily collapse. Let's expand slowly. :thumb:

Roody 02-10-11 05:23 PM


Originally Posted by hnsq (Post 12204331)
Thanks for the book recommendation, I will definitely check it out. On the other hand though, isn't crying 'look at me, I am getting by with so much less than the rest of you' just as bad?



You call me critical and yet don't want to offer advice, and say you 'doubt I will learn much' without knowing a single thing about me? Pot, meet kettle. Look in the mirror sometime champ, you might be disturbed by what you see.

I have read Walden, I have studied buddhism, hell, for a few months I voluntarily lived out of a tent in Wyoming, where everything I owned could fit in a backpack. It was enjoyable, I loved it, but I also don't see the problem with 'stuff'.

If I buy a TV, am I buying it because all of my friends have one? That is bad. Am I buying it because I simply enjoy watching TV? That is more than OK. Giving in to peer pressure happens with all groups of people.

Are you pairing down your possessions because you will be happier doing that? Great! Good for you. Or are you doing it because you want to fit into a certain crowd that you read about online? In that case, there is a problem.

Like I thought, you're here to pick an argument and that's about it. Well, I have nothing more to say. Again, good luck with whatever it is you're looking for. :)

Newspaperguy 02-10-11 07:52 PM


Originally Posted by hnsq (Post 12204331)
If I buy a TV, am I buying it because all of my friends have one? That is bad. Am I buying it because I simply enjoy watching TV? That is more than OK. Giving in to peer pressure happens with all groups of people.

Are you pairing down your possessions because you will be happier doing that? Great! Good for you. Or are you doing it because you want to fit into a certain crowd that you read about online? In that case, there is a problem.

It's a little more involved than that.

What does my purchase mean, not only for me but for the rest of the world?

If I buy a large sport utility vehicle and insist on driving everywhere because I want to do so and because I can afford it, my actions are polluting the atmosphere and, if I live in a city where traffic problems are a fact of life, then I am also contributing to congestion. I am not the only one affected by this decision.

If I buy a cheap computer printer which breaks down within a few months, that also has an effect on the world around me, especially if I buy another to replace the one that no longer works. The plastics and electronics that went into constricting this item cannot be reused.

Some of the purchases are items made or produced by workers who are underpaid and badly treated. My consumption is part of the reason their living and working conditions are deplorable. In some parts of the world, flowers or coffee, for export to rich countries, are grown on agricultural land which could be used to feed those who live there. In those cases, my choice is, in effect, also taking food out of the mouths of the hungry.

I'm not suggesting we completely stop driving, buy next to nothing and stop drinking coffee or enjoying flowers. Instead, our choices will have an impact on others around us. We have been given much and as a result, we also have the power, through our purchases and through our lifestyles, to make our world a better or worse place than it is today.

hnsq 02-11-11 09:01 AM


Originally Posted by Roody (Post 12207138)
Like I thought, you're here to pick an argument and that's about it. Well, I have nothing more to say. Again, good luck with whatever it is you're looking for. :)

I have seriously considered what other posters (those who have actually given me beneficial material) have said. You, on the other hand, need to look up 'self fulfilling prophesy'. You seem like one of those cyclists who assumes everyone who drives is an a**hole, before bothering to take the time to actually read the situation.



Originally Posted by Newspaperguy (Post 12207794)
It's a little more involved than that.

What does my purchase mean, not only for me but for the rest of the world?

If I buy a large sport utility vehicle and insist on driving everywhere because I want to do so and because I can afford it, my actions are polluting the atmosphere and, if I live in a city where traffic problems are a fact of life, then I am also contributing to congestion. I am not the only one affected by this decision.

If I buy a cheap computer printer which breaks down within a few months, that also has an effect on the world around me, especially if I buy another to replace the one that no longer works. The plastics and electronics that went into constricting this item cannot be reused.

Some of the purchases are items made or produced by workers who are underpaid and badly treated. My consumption is part of the reason their living and working conditions are deplorable. In some parts of the world, flowers or coffee, for export to rich countries, are grown on agricultural land which could be used to feed those who live there. In those cases, my choice is, in effect, also taking food out of the mouths of the hungry.

I'm not suggesting we completely stop driving, buy next to nothing and stop drinking coffee or enjoying flowers. Instead, our choices will have an impact on others around us. We have been given much and as a result, we also have the power, through our purchases and through our lifestyles, to make our world a better or worse place than it is today.

Very good points. Many, many people do NOT give a second thought to what goes into the things they own, and that is absolutely an essential thing to think about.



Originally Posted by Smallwheels (Post 12205289)
It's just that simple. Some of us are pairing down our possessions because we will be happier doing it.

There are no people in my daily life who are at all interested in having fewer things and pairing down to just essentials. The only people with whom I communicate about this topic are on a couple of forums. It might be the same with some of the others here since we're a rare breed (though our ranks are growing). I don't think anybody here needs to impress the others on the Living Car Free forum.

Hnsq is right to say some people do things to fit in. I very much doubt anybody not interested in living simply would get rid of some of their stuff just to fit in on an online forum.

It's a good thing that many people all at once aren't adopting the simple lifestyle, otherwise the US economy would temporarily collapse. Let's expand slowly. :thumb:

I guess I made that point about people doing it to fit in because of the new neighborhood I live in. I have a car, but have cycled to work/back (11 miles each way) regularly for years now. I also work in an office and wear dress clothes most of the time. Other than the cycling, I look like a stereotypical 'yuppie', however I cycle, I grow vegetables myself, I consider the environmental impact of what I do, etc. I recently moved to an 'up an coming' neighborhood essentially filled with hipsters on bikes with a 'holier than thou' attitude. Many of the people in my new neighborhood look down on me for 'owning things' and having an office job with a major corporation, and it frustrates me. It seems they have no desire to get to know me, they simply want to feel better than the 'young guy in the power suit' who moved in next door, even though I use my resources to shop at local farmers markets, fund small business startups in third world countries, to try and create sustainable incomes for those in need, etc...

I know the people in my neighborhood are not a microcosm of the world, however they are the only exposure I have had to car-free living in real life. Does that make sense?

Smallwheels 02-11-11 11:39 AM

Judging A Book By Its Cover
 

Originally Posted by hnsq (Post 12209710)
I recently moved to an 'up an coming' neighborhood essentially filled with hipsters on bikes with a 'holier than thou' attitude. Many of the people in my new neighborhood look down on me for 'owning things' and having an office job with a major corporation, and it frustrates me. It seems they have no desire to get to know me, they simply want to feel better than the 'young guy in the power suit' who moved in next door, even though I use my resources to shop at local farmers markets, fund small business startups in third world countries, to try and create sustainable incomes for those in need, etc...

The world needs corporations. Corporations need people. We just need corporations with a conscience.

I am prejudicial almost all the time yet I catch myself when being that way. I've been working on stopping it for years. People who know me would say I'm the least prejudicial person around. It seems like a big deal to me though because I'm always working on it.

I'm prejudicial when I see cyclists. I instantly like them. When I see someone that looks like a redneck with a scruffy beard in a crappy truck I instantly form a different opinion. Both of those are prejudicial and are barriers to truth. Maybe the scruffy looking guy in the crappy truck works two jobs to feed his children and family and donates the little extra money he earns to good causes, and would give you the shirt off his back if he thought you needed it.

Maybe the cyclist is out for a joy ride and goes home to his evil lair where he plots to destroy the world because he hates humanity.

I don't know any hipsters. Perhaps with some conversation they could be more friendly and understanding. Maybe not.

The more people I get to know the more I realize the world is full of people who are walking around with misconceptions of others. It just takes enough communication to gain enough understanding about the other person. Doing that creates affinity and brings people closer together.

In addition to removing the clutter in my apartment I'm trying to remove the clutter in my mind. The mental stuff is more difficult. :p

Neil_B 02-15-11 08:37 AM


Originally Posted by wahoonc (Post 11561553)
One think I have done with some books and music is to convert to digital format. I use Mobi Pocket Reader to keep the classics handy. I download from Many Books or the Gutenberg project, for the classics, I do buy the occasional ebook. Music is stored on a flash drive, as well as my Crackberry and a separate MP3 player.

I haven't figured out a way to digitize my bikes and tools:D

Aaron :)

I'm in the process of doing the same. Since much of my library consists of books in the public domain, I download them into my Kindle. In this case it's not so much money I'm saving as space.

Neil_B 02-15-11 09:04 AM

I'm currently undertaking simplifying my life. For me, this involves getting rid of both physical and mental stuff I've carried around.

I used to be 400 pounds, and at times probably more. I lost the bulk of the bulk about five years ago. But I never entirely uncluttered my mind. Obesity is one way people build a wall around themselves, keeping others out. Possessions are another. While I lost 150 some pounds and taught myself to ride a bike, I didn't grasp that riding and eating better didn't solve my problems in themselves.

So....

Most of my library of books is being sold on Ebay or given away. My music and video collection is being sold. I'm selling one of my bikes and some bike gear. I've donated excess clothing to Goodwill and to an unemployed friend of mine who lost 170 pounds - nothing is as dispiriting as walking around in 5X shirts because that's all you have.

The goal of all this was to put whatever I had left in storage and fulfill a dream of mine - ride my bike across the US. I was planning on quitting my job to do it, and relocating to Western Pennsylvania, simply because I like the area. Unfortunately my dream is now deferred, since my always problematic knees are in worse shape than I thought. I'm probably looking at surgery of some kind.

But meanwhile, I'm continuing to simplify while I can.

I've read this thread, and there's a lot of helpful suggestions. Thanks for those.

freighttraininguphill 02-15-11 08:56 PM

I've been working on simplifying my life for years. I'm always looking for stuff to get rid of, and other ways to make life less stressful and complicated. I converted my entire music collection to mp3 and sold/gave away the CDs. Cassettes were thrown out, as nobody wants those anymore. I got rid of my landline phone. I don't miss that at all. It was getting to the point where the only calls I got on my home phone were car warranty/debt consolidation scam calls and political calls around election time. This is in spite of the fact that my number was on the National Do Not Call registry, and I had never given my number when I registered to vote years ago.

I am car-lite. I only drive if I absolutely have to or if I want to do a climbing ride, since the nearest real hills are 25 miles away.

I only have cable because Comcast actually charges you more to have internet service without TV, so I just subscribe to the cheapest package available, which is about $15 a month. I never even watch TV anymore now that the internet has everything I like.


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