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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Scipunk 10-07-17 03:03 PM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 19914500)
Yep, they are. Rivendell sells 'em.
https://www.rivbike.com/products/mie...ps-pair-normal

Thanks for the link!


I take it you haven't had a bike with bar end shifters before. :D

I guess you can use your pinkie, but I usually use thumb and/or forefinger.

AHAHAHA you know that make way more sense now!

3speedslow 10-07-17 03:25 PM

I was out for an errand and got a chance to do some fast city riding. Turned around and found rain clouds blocking my way home. Stopped into the bike shop to get some water, down it came!

Waited a bit and it let up. Decided wet was going to happen so headed out. Not too bad. I was more interested in the strange movement of the left crank arm. When I got home I moved it around while holding the drive side, it is loose.

Is the best remedy to press the pin down some more or remove it? It seems far enough in, could be enough reason for new pins.

JohnDThompson 10-07-17 03:47 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19914549)
I was more interested in the strange movement of the left crank arm. When I got home I moved it around while holding the drive side, it is loose.

Is the best remedy to press the pin down some more or remove it? It seems far enough in, could be enough reason for new pins.

As long as it's loose, you may as well remove it and check for damage. Riding with a loose pin soon wears a gouge in the pin:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/worn-cotter.jpg

If the face of the pin isn't damaged, you can re-install it with a press (not a hammer). If you don't have a press, you can cobble up a serviceable substitute using a C-clamp and a wrench socket. The C-clamp will press on the head of the pin (not the threaded shaft) and the socket slips over the threaded shaft to give something for the other side of the C-clamp to work against.

If you do need to replace the pin, make sure you get the right diameter and be prepared to do some filing to get it to fit properly. Make sure you orient the pin so the crank arms are 180 from each other.

arty dave 10-07-17 05:22 PM

3speedslow I think it's the combo of the stem, bars and tyres that make this particular scorcher look like it's itching to go fast :)

OK I've done something bad and need your help and advice :twitchy:
I try to steer clear of chemicals as they make me feel ill after some unprotected exposure in a workplace years ago. But sometimes I use them to clean bike parts - I try to stick to citrus cleaner, vinegar, aluminium foil, brass brush, polish. Anyway - I forgot about the seat stay bolts I'd put in some de-rust to soak (main ingredient Phosphoric acid). I soak in a closed container so the fumes don't bother me, and (usually) check the parts after an hour max. This time I forgot all about them - Put them in Tuesday, took them out Saturday. This is what 5 days did to the bolts, the 2 on the L used to be exactly the same as the bolt on the R.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4508/...ce518186_c.jpgIMG20171008094157 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

I've measured the outside diameter of the threaded part at 6.35mm which converts exactly to 1/4". These bolts attach the removable seat stays to a DL-1. My questions are:
Am I right in assuming they are 26 tpi whitworth?
Would a bolt from an English motorcycle of the same era fit as a replacement?
Like these? 1/4 X 3/4 in CEI BOLT 26TPI PACK OF TEN | eBay
I could file down the heads to the right thickness.

I was sooo close to having it all back together and test riding this weekend :)

Scipunk 10-07-17 06:34 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 19914602)
As long as it's loose, you may as well remove it and check for damage. Riding with a loose pin soon wears a gouge in the pin:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/worn-cotter.jpg

If the face of the pin isn't damaged, you can re-install it with a press (not a hammer). If you don't have a press, you can cobble up a serviceable substitute using a C-clamp and a wrench socket. The C-clamp will press on the head of the pin (not the threaded shaft) and the socket slips over the threaded shaft to give something for the other side of the C-clamp to work against.

If you do need to replace the pin, make sure you get the right diameter and be prepared to do some filing to get it to fit properly. Make sure you orient the pin so the crank arms are 180 from each other.

What about the cotter pins from
Bicycle Crank Cotters
Would the Raleigh cut ones still need filing?

JohnDThompson 10-07-17 06:45 PM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19914876)
What about the cotter pins from
Bicycle Crank Cotters
Would the Raleigh cut ones still need filing?

Mark does note that he will file the Grade A pins to fit the Raleigh taper for a small added charge. Probably worth it, to make sure they're right (assuming you have a Raleigh, that is):

"The 9.5mm Grade A cotters are not cut deeply enough to be a good fit for Raleighs. For non-Raleigh owners, this is a good thing. Cotters cut to fit Raleighs go in too far for most other cranks. Filing cotters to fit whatever cranks you are working on used to be the norm.

"These days, not everyone is comfortable trying to file a pair of cotters to the correct depth and and at the same angle. So, I made a fixture that allows me to accurately remove more metal to make them a good fit for the typical Raleigh crank. Unfortunately modifying the cotters eats up time, so I have to charge $4.50 each for the modified ones vs. $3.50 for the unmodified cotters."

Scipunk 10-07-17 06:52 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 19914896)
Mark does note that he will file the Grade A pins to fit the Raleigh taper for a small added charge. Probably worth it, to make sure they're right (assuming you have a Raleigh, that is):

"The 9.5mm Grade A cotters are not cut deeply enough to be a good fit for Raleighs. For non-Raleigh owners, this is a good thing. Cotters cut to fit Raleighs go in too far for most other cranks. Filing cotters to fit whatever cranks you are working on used to be the norm.

"These days, not everyone is comfortable trying to file a pair of cotters to the correct depth and and at the same angle. So, I made a fixture that allows me to accurately remove more metal to make them a good fit for the typical Raleigh crank. Unfortunately modifying the cotters eats up time, so I have to charge $4.50 each for the modified ones vs. $3.50 for the unmodified cotters."

yeah i had noted that, and to me i am willing to spend the extra for correct cotters if i cannot reuse the ones in the 64. Sadly my 73 has the R nuts so i gotta be extra careful with those

Scipunk 10-07-17 06:56 PM

Side note as i don't have a bearing ruler, are all Raleigh sports BB bearings the same size? If not does anyone know the size on a 64?

arty dave 10-07-17 07:22 PM

Scipunk - should be 1/4"
I put my BB and cranks back on yesterday - I used my bench vice to press the cotters into place. That's how I got them out too...after breaking a c-clamp :(

SirMike1983 10-07-17 08:13 PM

Warm for a fall day here - got a ride in before it became dark.

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...515-jpg.688665

Scipunk 10-07-17 08:25 PM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19914934)
Scipunk - should be 1/4"
I put my BB and cranks back on yesterday - I used my bench vice to press the cotters into place. That's how I got them out too...after breaking a c-clamp :(

gotta love it...lol i may just go that route if i cant get it with the industrial c clamp i have!


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19915020)
Warm for a fall day here - got a ride in before it became dark.

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...515-jpg.688665

Gorgeous bike there sir!

3alarmer 10-07-17 08:32 PM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19914934)
Scipunk - should be 1/4"
I put my BB and cranks back on yesterday - I used my bench vice to press the cotters into place. That's how I got them out too...after breaking a c-clamp :(

.
...if you are not gonna use it very often, a cheap drill press vise with a socket for the negative space works too. Because it's smaller and more maneuverable, you can take it over to the bike, rather than wrestle the bike up onto the bench vise. I think they cost a little less than 20 bucks.

If you use one a lot, the screw handle usually gives out.

BigChief 10-07-17 09:04 PM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19914786)
3speedslow I think it's the combo of the stem, bars and tyres that make this particular scorcher look like it's itching to go fast :)

OK I've done something bad and need your help and advice :twitchy:
I try to steer clear of chemicals as they make me feel ill after some unprotected exposure in a workplace years ago. But sometimes I use them to clean bike parts - I try to stick to citrus cleaner, vinegar, aluminium foil, brass brush, polish. Anyway - I forgot about the seat stay bolts I'd put in some de-rust to soak (main ingredient Phosphoric acid). I soak in a closed container so the fumes don't bother me, and (usually) check the parts after an hour max. This time I forgot all about them - Put them in Tuesday, took them out Saturday. This is what 5 days did to the bolts, the 2 on the L used to be exactly the same as the bolt on the R.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4508/...ce518186_c.jpgIMG20171008094157 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

I've measured the outside diameter of the threaded part at 6.35mm which converts exactly to 1/4". These bolts attach the removable seat stays to a DL-1. My questions are:
Am I right in assuming they are 26 tpi whitworth?
Would a bolt from an English motorcycle of the same era fit as a replacement?
Like these? 1/4 X 3/4 in CEI BOLT 26TPI PACK OF TEN | eBay
I could file down the heads to the right thickness.

I was sooo close to having it all back together and test riding this weekend :)

Wish I could help with this. Went to the exploded view and parts list at Sheldon brown and it's listed simply as "bolt". I can say this. A chart of British Standard Fine bolts list a 1/4"x 26tpi. If Raleigh used these or whatever CEI is, I don't know. And whether CEI and BSF have the same thread pitch is another I don't know. Tapping it out and using a regular 1/4x 28 tpi bolt may be another option.

JohnDThompson 10-07-17 09:11 PM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19914908)
Side note as i don't have a bearing ruler, are all Raleigh sports BB bearings the same size? If not does anyone know the size on a 64?

All the Raleigh 3-speed bottom brackets I have worked on have used 1/4" balls.

JohnDThompson 10-07-17 09:16 PM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19914902)
Sadly my 73 has the R nuts so i gotta be extra careful with those

The "R" is just a little disc pressed into the hole in the nut. I haven't tried it myself, but you may be able to push the "R" disc out of the Raleigh nut and press it into the replacement nut.

Scipunk 10-07-17 09:24 PM


Originally Posted by 3alarmer (Post 19915052)
.
...if you are not gonna use it very often, a cheap drill press vise with a socket for the negative space works too. Because it's smaller and more maneuverable, you can take it over to the bike, rather than wrestle the bike up onto the bench vise. I think they cost a little less than 20 bucks.

If you use one a lot, the screw handle usually gives out.

Not a bad plan, ill look into it. Once I'm back working ill probably get one from bikesmith


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 19915132)
All the Raleigh 3-speed bottom brackets I have worked on have used 1/4" balls.

Thanks, ill pick some up :)


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 19915137)
The "R" is just a little disc pressed into the hole in the nut. I haven't tried it myself, but you may be able to push the "R" disc out of the Raleigh nut and press it into the replacement nut.

Also good to know, i should be able to as i would with miniatures and models and such so i have a semi delicate touch.

BigChief 10-08-17 05:00 AM

Mark has been a real asset to us 3 speed lovers. It's true that with a fine file, bench vice and a lot of patience you can get the cheap cotters to fit and have a nice 180 degree spread of the crank arms. But the Bikesmith cotters are accurately cut on a surface grinder and better quality cotters to start with. Same goes for his cotter press. I used to use a smaller, clamp on bench vice and a socket. It was awkward and you don't want awkward when you're trying to remove cotters. Marks press is easy to use and has a bolt that you can put a hefty wrench on. He also sells a tool for removing bottom bracket fixed cups. I hardly ever need it, but it is by far the best method.

gster 10-08-17 07:56 AM

Fulcrum Stop Locater
 
1 Attachment(s)
Using my unmolested '72 Superbe as a reference, I place the stop 3 fingers from the top lug...
Attachment 583779

3speedslow 10-08-17 10:42 AM

3 Attachment(s)
No luck with my stock of pins, none were close. Tried to file the old pin flat where the ridges were. Once inserted to pressure, the arms were not at 180.

Piece of pie to get the old pin out with the socket and clamp method.

BigChief 10-08-17 11:13 AM

Filing cotters IS a total PITA. Sometimes you get lucky and get them to work quickly and other times you file away a half dozen before you get two to work. There's just no way to be as accurate as a fixture in a surface grinder by hand. Dumb luck comes into play.
edit:
I have to add that sometimes the crank arms aren't totally accurate either. I have had some cranks where two NOS Raleigh cotters needed some adjusting with a file to work. Rare, but it happened to me twice that I remember. But the days of me buying bags of cheap cotters and filing them are over. I just got 6 from Mark. Used up my NOS supply years ago.

dweenk 10-08-17 11:31 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19915887)
No luck with my stock of pins, none were close. Tried to file the old pin flat where the ridges were. Once inserted to pressure, the arms were not at 180.

Piece of pie to get the old pin out with the socket and clamp method.

That looks like it may have been an undersized cotter. Does it measure 9.5mm?

3alarmer 10-08-17 12:16 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19915887)
No luck with my stock of pins, none were close. Tried to file the old pin flat where the ridges were. Once inserted to pressure, the arms were not at 180.

Piece of pie to get the old pin out with the socket and clamp method.

...you should (in theory) be able to fix that by filing the other pin to match. That's what I would do.

SirMike1983 10-08-17 12:27 PM

If you have a pair of non-matching pins, I suggest replacing them with the "Grade A" pins that Bike Smith Design sells. Specify you want the Raleigh profile on the pins. I do file and fit pins for some projects still, but only when I have a pair of relatively good, relatively close-matching pins and the project will not take a standard Raleigh profile. If I have a standard, post-war Raleigh in need of a good set of pins, I buy from Bike Smith.

3speedslow 10-08-17 12:42 PM

Thanks all! I tried it, but expected to fail. Nothing ventured nothing gained. The pin I tried was the one that came out of the crank in the first place. Yes, I did measure it.

I will go tomorrow to the LBS and look through his well stocked pin drawer. Sad now, no scorcher run today...

Scipunk 10-08-17 02:21 PM

Pulled the front wheels today and got the hub apart, not a whole lot there is there...lol

20 bearing all accounted for, and nearly dry as a bone... so i tossed them into my mag parts holder and ill get to cleaning the hub etc tonight. Is it really as simple as put some grease in the races, place 10 BB's each side and then screw it together? I assume i need to make sure the axle is even on both sides and there is free spinning but /tiny to no play?

BigChief 10-08-17 03:58 PM


Originally Posted by Scipunk (Post 19916342)
Pulled the front wheels today and got the hub apart, not a whole lot there is there...lol

20 bearing all accounted for, and nearly dry as a bone... so i tossed them into my mag parts holder and ill get to cleaning the hub etc tonight. Is it really as simple as put some grease in the races, place 10 BB's each side and then screw it together? I assume i need to make sure the axle is even on both sides and there is free spinning but /tiny to no play?

No need to even out this axle. One side has a shoulder. Just screw the fixed cone all the way down on it. You only have one adjustable cone. Another reminder. You will kick yourself if you forget and score up the races. Mount the wheel with the fixed cone on the right.

SirMike1983 10-08-17 04:50 PM

1941 Schwinn New World 3-speed:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RqFP-GDeT...008_154633.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WkNWYfpzw...008_154733.jpg

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Sl8x4mOLy...007_171229.jpg

arty dave 10-08-17 05:46 PM

I started re-building the DL-1 on the w/e. Firstly with fitting the cranks onto the bare frame so it wasn't so much weight to hold while pressing the cotters using the bench vice. Cleaned and reassembled the AB hub and gave it a new 22 tooth cog. I cleaned the original cog to put away, and this is when I really noticed that it's thicker than the usual 1/8". Checked the chainring, same thing: why hadn't my brain registered the thickness before now!! I have a 1/8" nickel plated chain I'd bought on sale, checked it for fit and of course it doesn't fit. Every time I work on this machine I find another problem to solve :) I cleaned the original chain to test the fit - I wasn't sure what to expect - under all the dirt and grime it looks brand new and has no chain stretch whatsoever. It's stamped 'Made in England' and 'The Coventry'. But it's too short with the new 22T cog by about 1 and 1/2 links. So I have a 3/16" drivechain, something I didn't know existed until now...it seems to have been used on 'butchers bikes', delivery/utility bikes back in the day, and apparently now favoured by some bmx riders as a tougher, longer lasting drivechain.

I'm having trouble sourcing a chain here in Oz, they're easier to find in the US or UK but with postage I'm looking at $45. I'll keep scouring maybe some local bmx specialty sites might sell these chains. Or it might be cheaper for me to buy a 1/8" Raleigh chainring. Do all DL-1's have 3/16" drivetrains? I'd love to extend 'The Coventry' chain I have as it's a piece of the bikes history. But I'd need to find a single link or 2 and another joiner to make it long enough.

BigChief 10-08-17 06:49 PM

I've never seen this on a DL-1 before, but KMC makes 1/2 x 3/16 chain. I'm surprised to hear that it's hard to find there.

arty dave 10-08-17 08:59 PM

Big Chief I probably need to look a bit harder. I can easily find shorter chain (98/100), but I need at least 110. I guess the bmx'ers only need short chain. Maybe I can order one through a bike shop.


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