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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

noglider 04-11-11 08:41 AM

I don't think WD-40 will help much. Acid is generally better. I like to use brass-bristle brushes. You can get them in the plumbing aisle at Home Despot. They're cheap. Get several, in various sizes. (Wait, is it brass or copper? I can't remember. In any case, they're softer than steel and don't scratch steel.)

Amesja 04-11-11 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 12489588)
Now that I have the cones straightened out, I need to do something about the rust spots on the Raleigh's steel rims. There is only one (attached pic) really bad one, and I'd like to prevent it from getting any worse. From reading the thousands of forum posts on this subject, the methods seem to be (a) WD-40 and steel wool, or (b) vinegar and aluminum foil. Thoughts?

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=197422

Oxalic Acid. If you go to any Ace Hardware you can buy one can of it for under $10.

It is so simple and easy. To be 100% safe use a very dilute solution in a shallow pan like a plastic drywall mud pan -Ace has these too. Be careful with it on the spokes as it can sometimes make them crusty. If you use something like a wheel-truing stand you can often just put the drywall pan right under the wheel and slowly spin it every few hours (or more if you are impatient) to cover all the spots and without dunking the rim so far as to get on the spokes if you are careful. 12-24 hours of soaking will kill all but the most nasty of rust. Scrub with a toothbrush to speed things up a little bit.

Barkeeper's friend also has oxalic acid in it as well as a built-in scrubbing feature. Scrubbing with one of those plastic/nylon scrubbing pads with a bit of water gets the worst of rust off without damaging the chrome. I will often do this to the spots that the first soaking in the OA bath doesn't get and then do the OA bath again.

Or you can use a big rubbermaid tub for the OA bath but be careful and watch the spokes and do not submerge the hub. If you have too much OA it can really hit the spokes and sometimes if you have old OA solution that you have used on other things maybe it picks up junk in solution that will react with the zinc plating on the spokes. It's all chemistry and I'm no chemist. I do know that OA is magic stuff for rusty chrome but you have to be careful with other metals (especially alloy which is a no-no) and zinc-plated steels which can either turn black or white and crusty. Polishing with rubbing compound will bring that stuff right back most of the time but I fear the zinc coating is gone. One of these days I'm going to do some research on DIY electroplating to restore zinc plating to bike parts.

OA is magic but you have to play with it a little bit because sometimes it is black magic instead of white magic ;) -works great on chrome though! You are pretty safe with just the Barkeeper's Friend though. I use a lot of that in my home bike-restore shop.

Amesja 04-11-11 09:51 AM

And by dilute solution I'm talking like 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of the Savogran stuff in that drywall mud bin filled with water. It doesn't take much at all.

Sixty Fiver 04-11-11 10:43 AM

On fasteners... when I am teaching workshops I always stress that SA wheel nuts are soft and cannot be over torqued as they will strip and much of the holding power comes from those very toothy SA lock washers.

A nut is easy to replace while changing out an axle in an IGH because you stripped the threads is a little more work... the proprietary nature of the SA nuts means folks cannot swap them for harder ones.

They should also be oiled prior to removal as if they are seized they can also be stripped quire easily... the new SA hubs also have the same hardened axle and softer nuts.

Amesja 04-11-11 10:54 AM

And the locknuts on the cones are supported by the cone lockwasher clip on the drive side and the force of the axle nuts holding everything together from both ends. They only need to be tight enough not to spin/move while the wheel is being installed. This doesn't take much. Some of the cone locknuts I've removed have had in excess of 65-70ft-lbs of torque on them. The Shimano Hub I was working on the other day had over 100 at least. I couldn't believe it.

The locknuts only have a few threads, they really can't support that much torque! 5-10ft-lbs is totally sufficient to keep them from moving during the assembly/disassembly process.

w1gfh 04-11-11 02:08 PM

Is there any reason to leave the AW hub in 3rd gear (i.e. slack shift cable) when parked or stored? My habit is to leave it in 1st when parked. But I notice if I leave it in 3rd, I sometimes encounter a "stuck shifter" if I try downshifting when stationary. Pushing the bike backwards about a foot "unsticks" it. Is this normal? (Pretty sure I've got Cable Adjustment a' la' Sheldon mastered, but I could be wrong!)

Sixty Fiver 04-11-11 02:12 PM

The factory settings for cone lock nuts ranges from 87 in/lbs to 150 in/lb... they need to be very tight.

I leave my SA equipped bikes parked in 3rd to release all the cable / spring tension... if things stick when parked you just have to move the pedals a little.

Amesja 04-11-11 03:04 PM

87 inch-lbs is 7.25 ft-lbs & 150 inch-bs is 12.5 ft-lbs. My torque wrench only goes down to 10 ft-lbs and I doubt it is very accurate at the low end of the scale.

I've got a pretty educated hand as far as torque values as I'm an electrician who has built quite a few high-voltage switchgears. Everything is torqued inside a switchgear since it is pretty important and copper buswork tends to heat and cool so things that are too tight will actually fatigue and break with expansion/cooling cycles. I rarely, if ever, pull out my torque wrench when working on bicycles or even motorcycles unless it is specific things within the engine. I don't even bother with brake work any more since I've got a pretty good feel where stuff should be. So I've can guesstimate torque values when I remove a fastener as wel as when I am "torquing by feel."

Over-torquing is one of my pet peeves when working on things. I really hate it when I pull a fastener off and look at the threads and they look like a saw-teeth instead of nice even zig-zags :( -time to replace! People have no idea how easy it is to over-torque and damage threads. All they know is that the fastener got loose so they must not have tightened it enough when really it got loose because they OVER tightened it and damaged the threads... /rant.

Sixty Fiver 04-11-11 03:14 PM

Amesja - I have a torque wrench that I only use on CF bikes... decades of practice teaches you what is and isn't right when it comes to torque and snug plus a 1/4 - 1/2 turn is a good rule of thumb as is using the right wrench and avoiding longer ones and snipes / extensions as these magnify effort.

I have had to remove a few seriously over torqued fittings in my life and it is a pain and conversely, have serviced a lot of wheels where the cone lock nuts were so loose you could spin them off by hand.

I also have a tension meter for wheel building but my hands, fingers, and ears know what proper tension feels like and only pull that out when I am working on out of the ordinary builds or where I am not familiar with a new component.

My step father was a master mechanic and a human torque wrench... he had mad skills.

Amesja 04-11-11 03:37 PM

I think if I were working on one of those new-fangled wheels with only 12 or so spokes in them I'd want to use a tension gauge too.

noglider 04-11-11 03:54 PM

I've never used a torque wrench or tension meter. I'm not against them, but I'm beyond needing one. I've damaged enough things to calibrate my wrists. Interestingly, when I started wrenching, my tendency was to undertighten, not overtighten.

Amesja 04-11-11 04:26 PM

For the most part someone with an educated mechanic's touch doesn't need to use one. I've used a torque wrench so many times that I've literally worn them out. A larger switchgear can take up a very large room and can have a thousand or more torqued fasteners in them, every one of which gets painted with a paint-pen across the nut and lockwasher after torquing to show that it has been torqued correctly. After spending hours crawling around inside a gear like a jungle-gym hitting every fastener on the copper bus bars, the standard torque values start to get imprinted directly into your nerve passages.

noglider 04-11-11 05:28 PM

That's what I was trying to say, but your expression is more complete and eloquent, as usual.

planetirving 04-11-11 07:47 PM

1976 Raleigh Sprite 3 Speed
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi All, I just joined recently and thought I would share how this evening I acquired a 1976 (though it looks to more like a '77) Raleigh Sprite 3 Speed 25 inch Frame Mens bike. The cost so far is $20. Unfortunately, the bike was left out all winter long. The old Brooks saddle is ruined, the chain, brakes, and shifter are all dry and sticky, the brakes squeal, there is surface rust, and thus the bikes is in major need of lubricants and a major tune up. I actually wanted to walk away after seeing it but the seller kept lowering the price until they threatened to load into my car regardless of payment (I am not keen on the color, ruined seat, or the amount of work the bike will need, since I have no repair experience yet and will have to take it to my local bike shop, but who am I to say no, per se, when they lowered the price by $100?). On the plus side, it is a tall frame, so I can actually fit properly on it and it is a Raleigh. I will see what the bike guys say...
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=197511

Schwinnsta 04-11-11 09:02 PM

Nobody answered my question about seat clamp orientation for classic 3-speed Brooks saddle. See post #1610.

I noticed in looking at pictures posted in the thread that many had post behind the clamp. I think that there is a correct position and it is with the post toward the front of the seat. This gives more springiness and at least for me puts the handlebar closer to the optimal position of the nose being the length from elbow to tips of fingers to front center of handle bars. I know its preference but I think the saddle was designed to have the post toward the nose.

My two cents.

noglider 04-11-11 09:19 PM

planetirving, we can walk you through any repairs you want to do yourself. Welcome to the group. You've found the right place.

Schwinnsta, my understanding that the traditional way is to have it with the post ahead of the clamp on road bikes but behind the clamp on upright bikes like the three speed. If you don't have it behind the clamp, your weight might exert too much torque on the clamp and force the back of the seat down, leaving you with a nose pointing way up. And having the clamp this way puts your seat farther forward, which we presume the rider to like, because he doesn't want to sit far behind the handlebars.

However, I do it your way. I find I put my saddle all the way back on all my bikes. I'm not sure why, but I'm not happy unless I do. Maybe I have short thighs and long shins. Or something. But it's the way I ride. If I ruin my clamp, I'll replace it. Easy enough.

snarkypup 04-11-11 09:35 PM

Just because this photo is so awesomely springy, and I want to post it EVERYWHERE. It's also in the "where did you ride today?" thread.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5263/...fac10fd4e7.jpg
raleighblossoms by snarkypup, on Flickr

sykerocker 04-11-11 09:39 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 12488233)
I had thought that that size of the SA cone wrench was incompatible with metric sizes. I guess not, and I guess my metric cone wrenches are merely too thick for the SA hub. Well, good thing I have an antique Sturmey Archer cone WRENCH.

Interesting thought. Whenever I'm working on my 3-speeds (and now the Lenton) I automatically reach for the Whitworth wrench set. And they tend to work perfectly.

sykerocker 04-11-11 09:46 PM


Originally Posted by planetirving (Post 12492849)
Hi All, I just joined recently and thought I would share how this evening I acquired a 1976 (though it looks to more like a '77) Raleigh Sprite 3 Speed 25 inch Frame Mens bike. The cost so far is $20. Unfortunately, the bike was left out all winter long. The old Brooks saddle is ruined, the chain, brakes, and shifter are all dry and sticky, the brakes squeal, there is surface rust, and thus the bikes is in major need of lubricants and a major tune up. I actually wanted to walk away after seeing it but the seller kept lowering the price until they threatened to load into my car regardless of payment (I am not keen on the color, ruined seat, or the amount of work the bike will need, since I have no repair experience yet and will have to take it to my local bike shop, but who am I to say no, per se, when they lowered the price by $100?). On the plus side, it is a tall frame, so I can actually fit properly on it and it is a Raleigh. I will see what the bike guys say...
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=197511

First off, Raleigh chrome of that period is WONDERFUL! Second only to Schwinn in quality. An oxalic acid solution will clean up all the chrome completely and easily - just budget 24 hours for each dipping. Hit the Brooks with leather restorer before you write it off and see if you can't get it reattached to the front of the frame. If that doesn't work, vintage Brooks are fairly easy to come by on eBay. Don't worry about dry and sticky, you're probably going to take the bike down completely and re-lube anything, anyway. The frame? Wash, use rubbing compound, then a good polish/wax. It'll come back nicely.

I'm currently running an AMF Hercules as my lunch time errand runner at work. It was the end result of 35 years of hanging in a damp shed, so you can imagine the appearance when I dragged it out. The chrome currently shines, and while the paint will never look great close up, it still protects the steel nicely and the bike functions perfectly. Remember, these babies were designed to get the mister off to and from work every day, otherwise the wife and kids would be in dire straights. Therefore, if anything they're overbuilt and virtually unbreakable.

Sixty Fiver 04-11-11 11:10 PM

I am gonna need some more oxalic acid... :)

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/63triumph1.JPG

Amesja 04-12-11 05:49 AM

Oh, those chrome fenders look like they are going to be beautiful after a dip.

The other day one my neighbors who is moving threw away an old rubbermaid container (with the top!) that is extra long and will fit nearly half a bike frame inside and a whole fender easily without any of it sticking out like the container I am using now. It'll even fit two wheels at the same time instead of my old one that I needed to have it in crooked and flexing the corners with it inside. Yoink! It came right back to my porch. Score! I'm sure all my neighbors wonder why I always have these big containers of water out back...

This summer I am going to keep my eye out for a kiddie pool...

planetirving 04-12-11 07:53 AM

Hi Everyone, thanks the words of encouragement. I am feeling adventuresome, maybe I will try to do the work myself (or at least some of it). The Brooks seat is a total loss. The front part broke off and is gone. I found a local craigslist Brooks B72 (off of an old Raleigh from 1968) for $60 in well preserved condition. I know he B66 is more springier (but there are none listed) but does this sound reasonable and is that the seat to go with? Thanks again!

noglider 04-12-11 08:00 AM

Yes, $60 for a B72 in good condition is good. The B72 is wonderful. I've never tried a B66.

Amesja 04-12-11 08:26 AM

I like the B66's springs. Call me an old fart but I really appreciate them on the pothole-strewn streets of chicago.

I wouldn't totally write off that seat though. Parts are available for it and a good shoe cobbler could re-attach the leather to a new front nose. See if you can sell it to someone else who might want to repair it or at least use it for parts.

planetirving 04-12-11 08:56 AM

That is, the front part of the leather is gone. I would consider salvaging it but the original reviews of these mid 70's bikes was that the stock brooks saddle that came with them was wanting anyhow and not very good for long rides, so any other Brooks saddle would be a big step up.

snarkypup 04-12-11 10:39 AM

Get a new saddle, Planetirving. I kept the original saddle on my '69 Sports. It was horribly uncomfortable, and one day it simply self-destructed. Get a new one, and get one with springs.

Much better on your rear end, looks great on the bike, and will last as long as you need it.

planetirving 04-13-11 03:05 PM

Well then, the final question is, how much can I do with my limited experience, even with advice (I am handy, just not versed in mechanical repair)? I would ideally like to strip down the bike and clean all the steel, chrome and painted surfaces, as well as lube it up and update the breaks pads, cables, etc, but how much of this can I do with just a wrench and screw driver? Will there be torquing issues and such? I guess I could strip it down, clean it up, and what ever I cannot put back together, take to my local bike shop for installation (My older brother once tried to rebuild the front brakes of his '69 Eldorado Cadillac: he'd still be working on it 33 years later if it had not been for the timely intervention of our neighbor who was a part time mechanic). Of course, if I do go ahead, where to start?

noglider 04-14-11 08:45 PM

I pick my rear up when going over bumps so I don't need springs in my saddle. I was assuming everyone does this, but I guess not.

Amesja 04-14-11 09:14 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 12508673)
I pick my rear up when going over bumps so I don't need springs in my saddle. I was assuming everyone does this, but I guess not.

Around here if I tried that trick I might as well remove the saddle entirely as there wouldn't be any setting back down -Chicago is all one big pothole.

;)

sekaijin 04-14-11 09:55 PM

I finally took my restored Hercules out for spring!

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMG_9411.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMG_9412.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMG_9417.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMG_9415.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMG_9416.jpg


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