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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

gster 10-29-18 06:37 AM

Eatons Catalogue Page Circa 1955
$47.95 in today's dollars = $452.00!
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b9fabf4e52.png

BigChief 10-29-18 06:51 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20638298)
Eatons Catalogue Page Circa 1955
$47.95 in today's dollars = $452.00!

Hmmm, not Raleighs. Are these CCM or maybe from Birmingham? The trigger shifter looks like the Herc-o-matic/ Brampton style.

gster 10-29-18 07:28 AM

My workshop on a rainy fall day...
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ec4c8ebfaf.jpg

Johno59 10-29-18 09:00 AM

Pit Ponies
 

Originally Posted by mtb_addict (Post 20636131)


i think the original roadster was designed in the early twentieth century, a time when Britain was at the top of the economic power. after ww2, they decline and struggle. i think there is correlation between economic strength and people average height. during an after ww2', Britains were probaby not as well fed as their ancestors in the early 1900.

Unfortunately not. The great wealth and industrial production was at the expense of worker's well-being. The average Joe's diet had very little good protein - it still hasn't.
The current Queen is less than 5 foot tall. Queen Victoria was 2 inches shorter . I doubt either ever went hungry.

gster 10-29-18 01:30 PM

BSA Headset Update
I'm still a little confused but will work through it...
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...df04de1128.jpg
On the left is a typical Raleigh cup with a built in bearing race.
The BSA cups are bare with a separate race as an insert (right).
The bearings that came out are much smaller than the standard 5/32" and
I'll have to visit the LBS to determine size and get some fresh ones.
Even so, the upper and lower races a slightly different in size.
One sits nicely inside the cup while the other "floats" a bit.
I'll slam it together and see what happens.

clubman 10-29-18 01:48 PM

Those would be 1/8" bearings. Looks like someone mixed and matched.

clubman 10-29-18 01:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20638322)
Hmmm, not Raleighs. Are these CCM or maybe from Birmingham? The trigger shifter looks like the Herc-o-matic/ Brampton style.

Birmingham. CCM's didn't use full fork crown caps or cottered cranks on 99% of their bikes. Here's 3 types they used...the Road Racer/Flyer path bike in red, the Delivery bike in black and almost everything else in blue. These don't apply to bike boom or later models.

gster 10-30-18 06:27 AM

BSA Update
Some progress.
Roughing in parts
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ac757612d4.jpg
I've used the original spindle but will swap out when the new one arrives.
Still need to get some 1/8" bearings to finish the headset.
I had a nice pair of brake levers in the bin
and the calipers cleaned up nicely.
The front rim and tire are both good.
The rear wheel is not great. The 61' hub seems fine
but the rim is rusty on the braking surface.
I have another, very clean hub/rim (also 1961) to fit
but it's badly out of true.......
Bass guitar in bg is a 60's Aria Diamond.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fbc0ff5024.jpg

gster 11-01-18 04:07 AM

Made in Canada Raleigh
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...043175bf41.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...87f0873860.jpg
Here's a nice one, priced at $80.00, here in Toronto.
What does Made in Canada really mean?
The Canadian Government imposed heavy tariffs on imported bicycles in the 1970's to encourage
domestic sales and production.
Bicycle parts/spares were not included.
Raleigh, Peugot and others set up "factories" here to
assemble "Canadian Made" bicycles.
I don't know if anything was actually made here or
if parts were just shipped here and assembled.
I own a Canadian made Superbe and the only difference I see is
the colour. An English Superbe is more of an olive green where as the
Canadian, is a forest green.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1b0e5b5153.jpg
Canadian
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5c7579faa2.jpg
English

gster 11-01-18 05:17 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20639127)
Those would be 1/8" bearings. Looks like someone mixed and matched.

Yes, 1/8" bearings and I bought some more.
Hopefully the headset will go back together today and the BB when the NOS spindle
arrives from a very generous Big Chief.

gster 11-01-18 05:59 AM

This can't be right...
I rebuilt the headset as I received it.
The lower race sits nicely inside the cup w/ 1/8" bearings.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1b0ce655e1.jpg
The upper race sits proud of the cup and I can't imagine the BSA engineers would have done this.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...16e1ca9b30.jpg
So I need a smaller race or I might try swapping the upper cup with a Raleigh cup w/ a built in race.
I was right about the Tomfoolery and now dealing with Shenanigans as well.....

Dan Burkhart 11-01-18 06:53 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20642999)
Made in Canada Raleigh
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...043175bf41.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...87f0873860.jpg
Here's a nice one, priced at $80.00, here in Toronto.
What does Made in Canada really mean?
The Canadian Government imposed heavy tariffs on imported bicycles in the 1970's to encourage
domestic sales and production.
Bicycle parts/spares were not included.
Raleigh, Peugot and others set up "factories" here to
assemble "Canadian Made" bicycles.
I don't know if anything was actually made here or
if parts were just shipped here and assembled.
I own a Canadian made Superbe and the only difference I see is
the colour. An English Superbe is more of an olive green where as the
Canadian, is a forest green.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1b0e5b5153.jpg
Canadian
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5c7579faa2.jpg
English

Raleigh Canada built steel frames in their Waterloo Quebec plant up until the plant closed in 2013. Aluminum frames were made off shore. I think it was the same for Pro Cycle brands.The Waterloo plant opened in the early 70s, so I think anything older would have been English.

Speedway2 11-01-18 10:07 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20638298)
Eatons Catalogue Page Circa 1955
$47.95 in today's dollars = $452.00!
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b9fabf4e52.png

That catalogue (1955) was a bit before my time but Eaton's downtown Toronto brought lots of joy growing up. Especially around X-Mas time with their window displays competing against Sears(next door).
A chunk of history gone.....but I digress.

browngw 11-01-18 09:05 PM

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ae405e51ba.jpg
Canadian bikes? Only one was made in Canada. I would pay the $69.95 for the Raleigh built 3 speed though.

gster 11-02-18 07:05 AM

BSA Headset
So here it is complete as found.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f5c1957eef.jpg

I'll set off today to see my friend George at Parts Unknown
to find a solution.
Could be as simple as finding a smaller race for inside the bottom cup
or a complete new headset.
BC may have been right about the caged bearings....
This Tange headset is available locally (new) but
I don't know much about them...
Price is right.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...16c9406888.jpg

PeterLYoung 11-02-18 12:00 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20643054)
This can't be right...
I rebuilt the headset as I received it.
The lower race sits nicely inside the cup w/ 1/8" bearings.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1b0ce655e1.jpg
The upper race sits proud of the cup and I can't imagine the BSA engineers would have done this.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...16e1ca9b30.jpg
So I need a smaller race or I might try swapping the upper cup with a Raleigh cup w/ a built in race.
I was right about the Tomfoolery and now dealing with Shenanigans as well.....

I am restoring a 1936 BSA Roadster and it has the same Headstock System as yours. I attach photographs that hopefully will help you as the components on mine are the correct parts. I hope the photos are self explanatory. The inner races fit inside the cups that form the Headstock and are virtually flush when in place. Without checking I believe there are 30 x 1/8" balls both at top and bottom. I am only just starting the rebuild as the frame arrived today after being trued by a frame builder and then re finished in black by the painter. The cups on my frame are part of the frame, ie. not inserts. If yours are inserts I would say the top cup is the wrong size to receive the top race. I am making assumptions from your photos so forgive me if I have got it wrong. I hope this helps. Regards Peter.https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0eafdba7c5.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e328af71af.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c3cdc0a3fe.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ff161654e9.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...26c2a31d66.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2a2459ed1a.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f1d1320801.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ee168ee793.jpg

gster 11-02-18 12:17 PM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20645205)
I am restoring a 1936 BSA Roadster and it has the same Headstock System as yours. I attach photographs that hopefully will help you as the components on mine are the correct parts. I hope the photos are self explanatory. The inner races fit inside the cups that form the Headstock and are virtually flush when in place. Without checking I believe there are 30 x 1/8" balls both at top and bottom. I am only just starting the rebuild as the frame arrived today after being trued by a frame builder and then re finished in black by the painter. I hope this helps.https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0eafdba7c5.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e328af71af.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c3cdc0a3fe.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ff161654e9.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...26c2a31d66.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2a2459ed1a.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f1d1320801.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ee168ee793.jpg

Thank you and well explained.
An interesting system as your "cups" appear to be built in.
My bike has been messed around with and some of those races are missing and I'm unlikely to find...
In the mean time I bought a fork and headset today from George and
have managed to cobble together a headset that works.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7dde93981d.jpg
The new (used) headset came from some unknown fork but the pieces were all there and the threading worked.
The cups fit as well, with some persuasion...
Yes, caged bearings, but can swap out later.
Not elegant but I used one of the BSA races as a temporary spacer on the top.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...51b90ae761.jpg
Looking at the photo, i may need to seat the top cup a bit more.

PeterLYoung 11-02-18 12:30 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20645237)
Thank you and well explained.
An interesting system as your "cups" appear to be built in.
My bike has been messed around with and some of those races are missing and I'm unlikely to find...
In the mean time I bought a fork and headset today from George and
have managed to cobble together a headset that works.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7dde93981d.jpg
The new (used) headset came from some unknown fork but the pieces were all there and the treading worked.
The cups fit as well, with some persuasion...
Yes, caged bearings, but can swap out later.
Not elegant but I used one of the BSA races as a temporary spacer on the top.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...51b90ae761.jpg
Looking at the photo, i may need to seat the top cup a bit more.

That looks to work OK, you could cut the fork down so you don't need the cup as a spacer or you could get a proper spacer if you don't want to do that. Thing that impressed me about the BSA Cups is that after 82 years and with dried out grease they had no sign of wear, they certainly used good steel!!!

gster 11-02-18 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20645259)
That looks to work OK, you could cut the fork down so you don't need the cup as a spacer or you could get a proper spacer if you don't want to do that. Thing that impressed me about the BSA Cups is that after 82 years and with dried out grease they had no sign of wear, they certainly used good steel!!!

Yes to both options. I'm just anxious to make some progress on this beast.
I suppose the thinking was that you could replace those parts as needed.
I'm sure combining the cup and race as Raleigh did later, was another way to cut costs.
Please continue to post pictures as your bike progresses.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ad6814b25c.jpg

BigChief 11-02-18 10:13 PM

Maybe somebody will come along with an early 50s BSA and solve the riddle. I did find this on the internet. It's a pre Raleigh BSA stunt bike. Good view of the headset. A later style than Peter's. Same headbadge as yours. Looks like the knurled top race you have is original. Pressed in cups with integrated races looks like. Shallow top and deeper bottom cup like a Raleigh. Locknut has keyways for a lock ring type spanner.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a8ea59eccd.jpg
1950s BSA All-Chrome Performer?s Bicycle | The Online Bicycle Museum

gster 11-03-18 06:31 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20645956)
Maybe somebody will come along with an early 50s BSA and solve the riddle. I did find this on the internet. It's a pre Raleigh BSA stunt bike. Good view of the headset. A later style than Peter's. Same headbadge as yours. Looks like the knurled top race you have is original. Pressed in cups with integrated races looks like. Shallow top and deeper bottom cup like a Raleigh. Locknut has keyways for a lock ring type spanner.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a8ea59eccd.jpg
1950s BSA All-Chrome Performer?s Bicycle | The Online Bicycle Museum

Thanks for that.
Good reference.
Is that a steering damper?
I suspect that at some point the front end came apart for maintenance and
that 2 of the BSA specific races were misplaced and replaced with
the more common but larger Raleigh parts, which don't nest inside the cups.
The guy I bought it from told me there was something going on up
front but he hadn't bothered to look into it.
The bearings and grease were all relatively new.
Unlike the BB, which obviously hadn't been attended
to for many years.
The stem is not keyed like a Raleigh either.
I'm happy with my current solution but will keep
my eyes open for the proper parts.
It's turning into another BITSA
Bits a this and bits of that...
-1953 BSA frame and crank
-unknown heasdset (Japan?)
-Quill stem and bars from an Eatons glider
-1974 Dynohub front wheel
-1961 SA hub rear wheel
-modern seat post with a new leather saddle (not sure what brand but think American))
-English pump
-Modern Chinese rubber and brake pads
-Put together by a Canadian
An International Bike of Mystery....

clubman 11-03-18 06:42 AM

Looks like a steering lock if you flip the bars 180 degrees, which you would on a stunt bike. Controlled no hands stuff.

Sugar Mountain 11-03-18 06:54 AM

Raleigh Tourist 1969
 
I'm new here and have never joined a chat room, so this is a test. I'm not a bike person, but I just acquired a nice Raleigh Tourist and have done a lot of research online. The closest match is 1969, with the Heron logo and other exact matches. It has a serial number: NB 0025645. It has been surprisingly difficult (impossible) for me to find out exactly when the bike was made or what it is worth. It has the Brooks leather seat. Anyone have any ideas? I can take some photos as soon as the sun comes up here in the Ozark Mountains. Thank you.

BigChief 11-03-18 07:28 AM


Originally Posted by Sugar Mountain (Post 20646186)
I'm new here and have never joined a chat room, so this is a test. I'm not a bike person, but I just acquired a nice Raleigh Tourist and have done a lot of research online. The closest match is 1969, with the Heron logo and other exact matches. It has a serial number: NB 0025645. It has been surprisingly difficult (impossible) for me to find out exactly when the bike was made or what it is worth. It has the Brooks leather seat. Anyone have any ideas? I can take some photos as soon as the sun comes up here in the Ozark Mountains. Thank you.

Although not totally accurate, we generally use the date stamped on the Sturmey Archer hub shell to date Raleighs. The heron with the two metallic strips on the seat post was in use up until around 1973. Here's the DL-1 from the 1970 catalog.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d8fd0136ec.jpg

gster 11-03-18 07:41 AM


Originally Posted by Sugar Mountain (Post 20646186)
I'm new here and have never joined a chat room, so this is a test. I'm not a bike person, but I just acquired a nice Raleigh Tourist and have done a lot of research online. The closest match is 1969, with the Heron logo and other exact matches. It has a serial number: NB 0025645. It has been surprisingly difficult (impossible) for me to find out exactly when the bike was made or what it is worth. It has the Brooks leather seat. Anyone have any ideas? I can take some photos as soon as the sun comes up here in the Ozark Mountains. Thank you.

Welcome.
A lot of knowledgeable riders/builders on this forum to help.
Big Chief is right, check the hub for a build date and post some pictures.
Value?
Free-?
Depends on condition and your local market.
A Tourist is not for everyone.

gster 11-03-18 07:47 AM

BSA
Here's a shot of the shifter cable stop as found.
BSA?
I'll probably add a pulley and fulcrum stop (Raleigh style)
as I prefer the look.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7130f6de68.jpg
The saddle (new)
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a0f26c6b3d.jpg
Brake levers (unknown brand) and S/A trigger.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d72b8e7499.jpg

Cute Boy Horse 11-03-18 09:41 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20638512)
Unfortunately not. The great wealth and industrial production was at the expense of worker's well-being. The average Joe's diet had very little good protein - it still hasn't.
The current Queen is less than 5 foot tall. Queen Victoria was 2 inches shorter . I doubt either ever went hungry.

The secret to a quality product at an affordable price: have a workforce of unwashed people living in cramped coalfired slums, eating fat dripping instead of meat, and crapping it out in an outside bog with a newspaper to wipe with. No wonder everyone above the age of 55 seems to have six brothers and sisters, at least one of them would've been expected to die. And this was the generation lucky enough to be born after the NHS! That's the hole in mtb_addict's theory, we only got to do stuff like "see a doctor" or "not get a job at 8 years old" after our overlord's empire started crumbling to bits.

I've heard it put that wartime rationing actually improved most people's diets. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest. Prosperity was a hallucination we had in the 90s.

PeterLYoung 11-03-18 11:22 AM

BSA Combined 3 Speed & Hub Brake
 
2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20622725)
Here it is. Quite lengthy. I will try to edit it down a bit when I get a chance. Also don't have the closed captioning edited yet, so it will be the always comical voice to text version for now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKyiajpTEo

I have a BSA Combined 3 Speed & Hub Brake. I want to dismantle the 3 Speed and check and clean it as part of the restoration of my 1936 Light Roadster. Thing is because the 3 Speed End Cap is recessed inside the Brake Drum it is not possible to get a purchase on the flats to undo it. BSA must have had a special tool to do this.

I have concluded the only way is to design a tool and get it made (probably at great expense).
The tool is designed so that the Spindle Nut (with a washer) can be installed to hold the tool against the End Cap to maintain purchase while loosening it, obviously one will have to keep slackening the Spindle Nut as the End Cap is undone to prevent jamming between End Cap and Spindle Nut.
I thought others may have this problem so I am attaching an image of the Hub and the design for the tool (which is not yet made, will be done when I get back from USA to UK in February).

Also I have started a New Thread under Classic & Vintage Titled: 'Restoring a 1936 BSA Light Roadster'
Regards
Peter

PeterLYoung 11-03-18 11:36 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20645273)
Yes to both options. I'm just anxious to make some progress on this beast.
I suppose the thinking was that you could replace those parts as needed.
I'm sure combining the cup and race as Raleigh did later, was another way to cut costs.
Please continue to post pictures as your bike progresses.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ad6814b25c.jpg

​​I have started a New Thread under Classic & Vintage Titled: 'Restoring a 1936 BSA Light Roadster'

BigChief 11-03-18 08:21 PM

Dirty deeds done dirt cheap!

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c91733e148.jpg


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