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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

nlerner 11-17-18 09:22 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20667619)
Search for "drive screws". Industrial supply places like McMaster-Carr will carry them. Getting the correct size will be tricky. Also installing them isn't as easy as you would think. You would need a punch with a concave end to match the head of the drive screw or else it will flatten the head. edit...It takes some practice to get it right. And 3 hands! I suppose they had a special tool. I found it difficult.

So my cheating solution is to glue the headbadge on and then use spoke heads or actual rivet heads as faux rivets as in this one:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4875/...a70536bb_c.jpg

DQRider 11-17-18 09:55 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20667619)
Search for "drive screws". Industrial supply places like McMaster-Carr will carry them. Getting the correct size will be tricky. Also installing them isn't as easy as you would think. You would need a punch with a concave end to match the head of the drive screw or else it will flatten the head. edit...It takes some practice to get it right. And 3 hands! I suppose they had a special tool. I found it difficult.


Well, if you found it difficult, Big Chief, it may well be impossible for the likes of me. :foo: But I'll see what I can find. Perhaps a consultation with Mark Stonich (BikeSmith) is in order...



Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20667657)
So my cheating solution is to glue the headbadge on and then use spoke heads or actual rivet heads as faux rivets as in this one:


That seems like a more realistic solution. Thanks for providing Plan B. :thumb:




BigChief 11-17-18 11:08 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20667657)
So my cheating solution is to glue the headbadge on and then use spoke heads or actual rivet heads as faux rivets as in this one:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4875/...a70536bb_c.jpg

This is exactly what I would do if I ever needed to add a headbadge to a bicycle frame again. Setting those drive screws in steel this hard is very tricky. The drive screw makers recommend the hole be .001 to .002 under the shaft of the screw. Forget .002. It will bend like spaghetti in hi ten steel. .001 max. So you need a special punch so as to not deform the dome head of the screw and a reamer exactly .001 under the shaft size. All while you hold everything perfectly square and try not to squash the rather delicate embossed sheet brass headbadge. Yup, glue and glued on domed pins that look the part.

Johno59 11-18-18 01:36 AM

Drive screws
 
I think there are three different width. Get the correct ones or redrill to fit. Be careful when driving them in coz the head tubing is very thin and when punching there's quite a lot of force in a tiny area. In my experience the end of the screw always hits the fork steerer tube.
​​​​​​This I always do the riveting after I fit the forks.
Gluing it sounds like a lot less hassle that's for sure.

gster 11-18-18 07:07 AM

Hercules frame set for sale in Toronto.
Seller's asking $75.00..
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4ed6d7f5ea.jpg
Pre AMF?

gster 11-18-18 07:55 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20667208)
Looks good to me. Honest wear from, must be almost 50 years now. Good lookin burgundy Sports. And lately, I've become a fan of dyno hubs.

Burgundy or coffee?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fb1294e8a2.jpg

BigChief 11-18-18 09:31 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20667986)
Hercules frame set for sale in Toronto.
Seller's asking $75.00..
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4ed6d7f5ea.jpg
Pre AMF?

Too much. If he gets 75 bucks for that, I'll eat my anti-rotation washers. That's the same price Neil is asking for the burgundy Sports and it has wheels and everything. Or how about this pre-Raleigh Phillips stepthrough.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...453d48e1d8.jpg
https://maine.craigslist.org/bik/d/v...748891588.html

gster 11-18-18 09:50 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20668143)
Too much. If he gets 75 bucks for that, I'll eat my anti-rotation washers. That's the same price Neil is asking for the burgundy Sports and it has wheels and everything. Or how about this pre-Raleigh Phillips stepthrough.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...453d48e1d8.jpg
https://maine.craigslist.org/bik/d/v...748891588.html

I concur. If it was more complete, maybe.
Most of my used parts suppliers have dried up in the last few years
and my stock of useable wheels etc is getting thin.
There's still a couple of bike shops that regularly toss out 3 speed parts that
I can salvage.

gster 11-18-18 03:14 PM

BSA Progress... (some)
I've re assembled the bike to some extent for an evaluation.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fe1774c662.jpg
The front rim is very good. Someone before me spent some money on it.
The rear rim had a major "wow" in it that I've improved somewhat.
Drivetrain is OK. I need a new chain that will allow me to set wheel farther back.
Tires are good.
New on rear, fairly new up front.
The trigger/ hub are not working correctly but will address next.
brake pads/bearings/cables are new.
I've opted for a pulley/fulcrum stop on this version even though the original
set up had the cable running down the front.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...165fa61897.jpg
Depending on how it works out, I may also add a pair of MKS pedals.

gster 11-20-18 07:13 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20668543)
BSA Progress... (some)
I've re assembled the bike to some extent for an evaluation.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fe1774c662.jpg
The front rim is very good. Someone before me spent some money on it.
The rear rim had a major "wow" in it that I've improved somewhat.
Drivetrain is OK. I need a new chain that will allow me to set wheel farther back.
Tires are good.
New on rear, fairly new up front.
The trigger/ hub are not working correctly but will address next.
brake pads/bearings/cables are new.
I've opted for a pulley/fulcrum stop on this version even though the original
set up had the cable running down the front.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...165fa61897.jpg
Depending on how it works out, I may also add a pair of MKS pedals.

I swapped out the shifter cable and the trigger. All seems good.
The original cable was binding slightly in the housing.

Stadjer 11-21-18 12:28 PM

I've got a Sturmey Archers 3-speed question so I'll put here and not in Mechanics, allthough the bike isn't really vintage. It's a bit over 10 years old and has a grey plastic shifter. My neighbour has had a knee operation and needs a step through, and I had a Gazelle tour populair oma taking up space so I decided to fix it.

The strange thing is it has always worked and still all gears work, but I can't find an adjustment that has all three of them within the range of the shifter. I can have 1 and 2 and 2 and 3, and I believe even 1,2 and 3 but then 3 slips under torque. I'm not entirely sure because in the process I lost my feeling for which gear is which, but I'm pretty sure all of them are there I already changed the shifter which wasn't clicking properly with another one of the same type that worked better, but it hasn't helped much.

Anyone an idea? Could it be a wrong curve in het cable?

gster 11-21-18 02:40 PM

Austrian built Skyline 3 Seed
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3ee8609737.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ee117707e0.jpg
I've seen several men's bikes with the SA throttle shifter.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...86e3e0af80.jpg

52telecaster 11-21-18 03:04 PM


Originally Posted by Stadjer (Post 20672676)
I've got a Sturmey Archers 3-speed question so I'll put here and not in Mechanics, allthough the bike isn't really vintage. It's a bit over 10 years old and has a grey plastic shifter. My neighbour has had a knee operation and needs a step through, and I had a Gazelle tour populair oma taking up space so I decided to fix it.

The strange thing is it has always worked and still all gears work, but I can't find an adjustment that has all three of them within the range of the shifter. I can have 1 and 2 and 2 and 3, and I believe even 1,2 and 3 but then 3 slips under torque. I'm not entirely sure because in the process I lost my feeling for which gear is which, but I'm pretty sure all of them are there I already changed the shifter which wasn't clicking properly with another one of the same type that worked better, but it hasn't helped much.

Anyone an idea? Could it be a wrong curve in het cable?

if the cable has a kink that straightens as you shift it could cause your symptoms.

gster 11-21-18 03:34 PM


Originally Posted by Stadjer (Post 20672676)
I've got a Sturmey Archers 3-speed question so I'll put here and not in Mechanics, allthough the bike isn't really vintage. It's a bit over 10 years old and has a grey plastic shifter. My neighbour has had a knee operation and needs a step through, and I had a Gazelle tour populair oma taking up space so I decided to fix it.

The strange thing is it has always worked and still all gears work, but I can't find an adjustment that has all three of them within the range of the shifter. I can have 1 and 2 and 2 and 3, and I believe even 1,2 and 3 but then 3 slips under torque. I'm not entirely sure because in the process I lost my feeling for which gear is which, but I'm pretty sure all of them are there I already changed the shifter which wasn't clicking properly with another one of the same type that worked better, but it hasn't helped much.

Anyone an idea? Could it be a wrong curve in het cable?

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6009ef1124.gif
This illustration explains it.
with the trigger in 2
you want the shoulder of the indicator chain (1) just peaking
out of the axle.
In 3rd gear the cable is slack.
The condition of the cable is also important as any binding inside
of the housing can hinder shifting as well.
The tension on the cable is via a small spring inside the hub.

BigChief 11-21-18 04:26 PM


Originally Posted by Stadjer (Post 20672676)
I've got a Sturmey Archers 3-speed question so I'll put here and not in Mechanics, allthough the bike isn't really vintage. It's a bit over 10 years old and has a grey plastic shifter. My neighbour has had a knee operation and needs a step through, and I had a Gazelle tour populair oma taking up space so I decided to fix it.

The strange thing is it has always worked and still all gears work, but I can't find an adjustment that has all three of them within the range of the shifter. I can have 1 and 2 and 2 and 3, and I believe even 1,2 and 3 but then 3 slips under torque. I'm not entirely sure because in the process I lost my feeling for which gear is which, but I'm pretty sure all of them are there I already changed the shifter which wasn't clicking properly with another one of the same type that worked better, but it hasn't helped much.

Anyone an idea? Could it be a wrong curve in het cable?

I'm only familiar with the older English Sturmey Archer hubs, but maybe some of the same trouble shooting tips will apply. If you select high gear and make sure the cable is all the way slack and you can't make high gear slip no matter how hard you mash, then the problem is likely in the cable or the adjustment. There is a neutral spot in between 2nd and 3rd. Generally, if 3rd slips the cable is too tight. If 2nd slips, it is too slack. If adjustment doesn't fix the problem, you need to check if the cable is moving freely. Also check to see if the cable stop and guide wheel are tightly clamped in place. Sometimes, rusty and/or bent indicator chains can cause trouble getting a good adjustment.

gster 11-21-18 05:59 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20673035)
I'm only familiar with the older English Sturmey Archer hubs, but maybe some of the same trouble shooting tips will apply. If you select high gear and make sure the cable is all the way slack and you can't make high gear slip no matter how hard you mash, then the problem is likely in the cable or the adjustment. There is a neutral spot in between 2nd and 3rd. Generally, if 3rd slips the cable is too tight. If 2nd slips, it is too slack. If adjustment doesn't fix the problem, you need to check if the cable is moving freely. Also check to see if the cable stop and guide wheel are tightly clamped in place. Sometimes, rusty and/or bent indicator chains can cause trouble getting a good adjustment.

I just looked at a guy's bike ('62 Superbe) with shifting problems...
his fulcrum stop was about 1 1/2" farther away from where it should be.
It's a complicated system, but once set up (like a guitar) very dependable.
I was told there'd be no math!

Dan Burkhart 11-21-18 07:06 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20673035)
There is a neutral spot in between 2nd and 3rd. Generally, if 3rd slips the cable is too tight. If 2nd slips, it is too slack. .

If the hub is only 10 years old as the poster says, it will almost certainly be the NIG type that does not have the neutral spot. NIG stands for No Inbetween Gear.

Stadjer 11-22-18 04:44 AM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 20672894)
if the cable has a kink that straightens as you shift it could cause your symptoms.

Yes, that would narrow the range. I didn't see any obvious kinks though.


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20672940)
This illustration explains it.
with the trigger in 2
you want the shoulder of the indicator chain (1) just peaking
out of the axle.
In 3rd gear the cable is slack.
The condition of the cable is also important as any binding inside
of the housing can hinder shifting as well.
The tension on the cable is via a small spring inside the hub.

That's how I started, I've adjusted SA3's since I was 11 years old, not that many and it can take a bit of fiddling but with the vintage ones it always works out in the end. I don't like the design and build quality of this newer bike anyway, allthough it appears to be the classic design. My own vintage Gazelle has a top tube and lets the cable run as free and naked as possible, over a wheel. This one forces it underneath the frame.


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20673035)
I'm only familiar with the older English Sturmey Archer hubs, but maybe some of the same trouble shooting tips will apply. If you select high gear and make sure the cable is all the way slack and you can't make high gear slip no matter how hard you mash, then the problem is likely in the cable or the adjustment. There is a neutral spot in between 2nd and 3rd. Generally, if 3rd slips the cable is too tight. If 2nd slips, it is too slack. If adjustment doesn't fix the problem, you need to check if the cable is moving freely. Also check to see if the cable stop and guide wheel are tightly clamped in place. Sometimes, rusty and/or bent indicator chains can cause trouble getting a good adjustment.

I've had the 3 running without slipping, but I've also had freewheel like clicking sounds in 3rd and 2nd I believe. I didn't find any neutral as @Dan Burkhart suggested. I didn't rewire the cable because I remember it worked fine a couple of years ago, I just tensioned the chain so it had to be re-adjusted. I've also trouble feeling which gear is which, on my own bike I'm in 3rd almost all the time and I believe its a bigger 3rd and the tyre has a bigger circumference too.

Thanks for the tips you all, they give me hope it's nothing internal. I'll try a full rewire with vaseline first.

Dan Burkhart 11-22-18 05:17 AM


Originally Posted by Stadjer (Post 20673541)
but I've also had freewheel like clicking sounds in 3rd and 2nd I believe..

Freewheel like clicking sounds in 2nd and 3rd is entirely normal. What you are hearing is the hub shell out running the low gear pawls in 2nd, and added to that is the sound of the ring gear outrunning the pawls on the driver in 3rd if you have the NIG model.
On older AW hubs, there are no pawls on the driver, so you only hear one set being outrun.

BigChief 11-22-18 07:49 AM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20673550)
Freewheel like clicking sounds in 2nd and 3rd is entirely normal. What you are hearing is the hub shell out running the low gear pawls in 2nd, and added to that is the sound of the ring gear outrunning the pawls on the driver in 3rd if you have the NIG model.
On older AW hubs, there are no pawls on the driver, so you only hear one set being outrun.

I've always considered using the planet gear pins to engage overdrive to be a stroke of brilliance. Economy of design and dead reliable. Avoiding the neutral spot when adjusting the cable is easy. Sounds to me to be a case of complicating the design to fix a non-issue.

Stadjer 11-22-18 07:51 AM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20673550)
Freewheel like clicking sounds in 2nd and 3rd is entirely normal. What you are hearing is the hub shell out running the low gear pawls in 2nd, and added to that is the sound of the ring gear outrunning the pawls on the driver in 3rd if you have the NIG model.
On older AW hubs, there are no pawls on the driver, so you only hear one set being outrun.

Thanks, I'm getting more confident it's not an internal matter with every reply.

Dan Burkhart 11-22-18 04:53 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20673638)
I've always considered using the planet gear pins to engage overdrive to be a stroke of brilliance. Economy of design and dead reliable. Avoiding the neutral spot when adjusting the cable is easy. Sounds to me to be a case of complicating the design to fix a non-issue.

The re design does not change the power flow. Overdrive is still attained by engaging the clutch to the planet pins. The new design is not over complicated in my view, and it is a sound design that achieves what it's designed to do.
I explained and demonstrated it in this video.

NormanF 11-22-18 05:01 PM

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...aa7142b91.jpeg
SA Taiwan is the default hub in the new Raleigh Tourist. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

BigChief 11-22-18 09:46 PM


Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 20674133)
The re design does not change the power flow. Overdrive is still attained by engaging the clutch to the planet pins. The new design is not over complicated in my view, and it is a sound design that achieves what it's designed to do.
I explained and demonstrated it in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UyHVWsvzQs

Thanks for posting this explanation. When you mentioned a third set of pawls, I envisioned a whole new complex system to solve what I consider to be a minor issue. But I agree, this is a simple change that leaves our beloved AW intact.

jamesj 11-23-18 03:50 PM

Question.

So I have a 1974 Superbe I'm putting the bottom bracket back together. I noticed the wear on cups and spindle, decided to try using original parts I noticed binding when adjusting. I ended up sourcing newer cups and a spindle. I put it altogether again and then notice the exact same binding when adjusting the bottom bracket. Could the bottom bracket just have been made that way? Is this just something I have to deal with? Have you all experienced this before? I know its just a 3 speed and they are built like tanks so I expect some stuff to be wrong with it. Im thinking I might just run the old parts since it is also binding with newer parts.


Fixed cup

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f2c8405eb1.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...dc6169009e.jpg


Adjustable cup

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b4f78c84db.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...17ff688c0d.jpg


Drive Side
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5d9e9e7b25.jpg


Non Drive Side
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0038f13fe8.jpg

BigChief 11-23-18 04:35 PM

I see some wear on the dark spindle, the other one looks good as do the cups. The first thing that comes to my mind is that you're loosing the adjustment you made with the adjustable cup when you tighten the lock ring. That's easy to do especially if you're using a punch and hammer to tighten the lock ring. The cup will want to turn and over tighten your adjustment. Getting an adjustment is a whole lot easier if you have the correct spanner for the lock ring because you only need one hand which leaves the other free to hold the cup in place. That would be Park Tool # HCW-5. There's also a Park Tool to hold the cup HCW-11 but channel lock pliers work fine too.

nlerner 11-23-18 05:35 PM

Yeah, the differences between too tight, just right, and too loose on the BB assemblies are really close together. Having the right tools and a lot of patience are essential.

jamesj 11-23-18 07:56 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20675141)
I see some wear on the dark spindle, the other one looks good as do the cups. The first thing that comes to my mind is that you're loosing the adjustment you made with the adjustable cup when you tighten the lock ring. That's easy to do especially if you're using a punch and hammer to tighten the lock ring. The cup will want to turn and over tighten your adjustment. Getting an adjustment is a whole lot easier if you have the correct spanner for the lock ring because you only need one hand which leaves the other free to hold the cup in place. That would be Park Tool # HCW-5. There's also a Park Tool to hold the cup HCW-11 but channel lock pliers work fine too.


Sorry, I should have taken a photo of the whole spindle, this is the original pulled from the Superbe. As for the tools I am using exactly those tools I am using the Park Tool HCW-5 and HCW-11. I also am using the Bikesmith Fixed Cup Tool to pull the fixed cup and making sure it is nice and tight.

Here is what I have tried with the bottom bracket.
1. Tried using original spindle and original cups. Discovered the binding in certain areas. It would spin normal and then bind every now and then.
2. Tried using original cups and different spindle. Same symptoms, spin normal and then bind every now and then.
3. New cups (fixed and adjustable) and new spindle Same symptoms, spin normal and then bind on certain rotations.

I am adjusting to where there is little to no play in the spindle.

Here are the photos.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d8dbf4cbd8.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cb45496761.jpg

gster 11-23-18 09:16 PM


Originally Posted by jamesj (Post 20675355)
Sorry, I should have taken a photo of the whole spindle, this is the original pulled from the Superbe. As for the tools I am using exactly those tools I am using the Park Tool HCW-5 and HCW-11. I also am using the Bikesmith Fixed Cup Tool to pull the fixed cup and making sure it is nice and tight.

Here is what I have tried with the bottom bracket.
1. Tried using original spindle and original cups. Discovered the binding in certain areas. It would spin normal and then bind every now and then.
2. Tried using original cups and different spindle. Same symptoms, spin normal and then bind every now and then.
3. New cups (fixed and adjustable) and new spindle Same symptoms, spin normal and then bind on certain rotations.

I am adjusting to where there is little to no play in the spindle.

Here are the photos.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d8dbf4cbd8.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cb45496761.jpg

Those parts all look fine to me as well.
It's all about the adjusting...
I find installing the cranks and pedals gives a better
feel while adjusting the cup.

jamesj 11-23-18 10:04 PM

Hmmm im going to have to try this thing again.
thanx for the help.




Originally Posted by gster (Post 20675449)
Those parts all look fine to me as well.
It's all about the adjusting...
I find installing the cranks and pedals gives a better
feel while adjusting the cup.



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