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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 11-26-18 08:54 PM

It's the close up of the crank where I can see some details. The brazed on tabs for the 3 point chainguard and no lug on the chainstay for an enclosed chaincase. Raleigh used that 50s style font on the downtube again for a couple of years. 67 and 68 I think. No guide wheel lug on the TT and the BB spindle has no center hole.

jamesj 11-26-18 09:48 PM

Thanx all for the help! I figured it was a 60ís model but wasnít sure. Ill take more detailed photos.

@gster I figured in parts in would be more than 20 bucks that's why I bought it!

@clubman the bars are very deep, from the top they look almost like track bars. You are right the front wheel is a Raleigh Industries hub laced to Raleigh Rim.

@BigChief the cranks are in very great shape, the cotters came out very easily with no problem.

jamesj 11-26-18 10:54 PM

More pics. Don't pay any attention to the seat post bolt, thats from my 74 Superbe.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2c22279df0.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...012e088623.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8ac122840b.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...05b51d6ceb.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...212f16b0c0.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fd73e053bc.jpg

jamesj 11-26-18 10:59 PM

More. The bars have no markings on them, but the brake levers did have safety levers on them. Im not sure if they were original, Im thinking not since the bike had pieces added here and there.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6e291dc93c.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e96238ce9b.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...64f64c9a47.jpg


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...32ed03c475.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...169d6fdab9.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...04322f58db.jpg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...71f8736bb7.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...90c30c3122.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cbfe942916.jpg

nlerner 11-27-18 05:39 AM

That frame has lovely patina.

clubman 11-27-18 07:44 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20679292)
It's the close up of the crank where I can see some details. The brazed on tabs for the 3 point chainguard and no lug on the chainstay for an enclosed chaincase. Raleigh used that 50s style font on the downtube again for a couple of years. 67 and 68 I think. No guide wheel lug on the TT and the BB spindle has no center hole.

Yup the chainguard braze-ons and lack of lug tell it all. Rose coloured glasses were activated when I saw the bars. You rarely see that font after 60 or so but Raleigh did unusual things.

BigChief 11-27-18 07:54 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20679699)
Yup the chainguard braze-ons and lack of lug tell it all. Rose coloured glasses were activated when I saw the bars. You rarely see that font after 60 or so but Raleigh did unusual things.

When I first saw it I went...whoa!...but I'm so used to scanning craigslist pictures for pre TI Raleighs that I spot small details. The fact that the give away metallic strips on the seat tube were totally missing didn't help.

gster 11-27-18 08:05 AM

It's difficult to tell what's gone on with a bike like this over the years and how many hands its' passed through.
The chain ring is clearly pre 1962.
The steering tube seems to have slight deflection. It might just be the photo.
Those chain guard tabs must be a clue to the date.
My 61 Superbe does not have those.

gster 11-27-18 08:17 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 20678794)
Nice progress! That extra bit of chrome bling below the fork crown adds a really nice touch to the look of the bike.

Thanks, its' a work in progress with some more details to attend to come spring. I do have a nice set of drop bars that would look good but wouldn't suit my
riding style. The rear wheel/ hub (1961), although rust free and smooth shifting has a terrible warp that has been slightly corrected (by reefing on it).
I've never laced a wheel so that may be part of my continuing education....

jamesj 11-27-18 08:20 AM

So we all agree that it is a later frame with older crankset. Do you all think the bars are older too? Is there anyway to tell?

The only bad thing is the stem is slightly bent.

gster 11-27-18 08:40 AM

I'm currently in mexico on vacation.
These vintage style bikes are still available for $135.00 (US)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6423378c5d.jpg

clubman 11-27-18 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by jamesj (Post 20679751)
So we all agree that it is a later frame with older crankset. Do you all think the bars are older too? Is there anyway to tell?

The only bad thing is the stem is slightly bent.

I've owned a few of those steel bars and there were no markings but look at the 48 to 51 catalogs to compare, they are uniquely long and deep, perhaps to put the rider in a low and forward position given the short stems. The stem is ubiquitous and could be easily replaced. What stamp is on the top, Sir Walter and his cloak? The original pics show the stem sitting very high in the steerer so it likely deformed from long term usage. The steel is soft.

jamesj 11-27-18 10:16 AM

Yep it is Sir Walter and cloak on top of the stem. I figured someone did bend it from being too high.

These bars are long and deep, the top when gripping them reminds me of track drops. You think when building it back up I should use those same bars? Iím thinking since it has the chaincase missing Iím just going to turn it into a drop bar bike.



Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20679887)
I've owned a few of those steel bars and there were no markings but look at the 48 to 51 catalogs to compare, they are uniquely long and deep, perhaps to put the rider in a low and forward position given the short stems. The stem is ubiquitous and could be easily replaced. What stamp is on the top, Sir Walter and his cloak? The original pics show the stem sitting very high in the steerer so it likely deformed from long term usage. The steel is soft.


clubman 11-27-18 11:09 AM


Originally Posted by jamesj (Post 20679978)
You think when building it back up I should use those same bars?

Dealers choice. I know you've got it stripped but it all depends how it feels to you. Many people find that Sports models aren't real comfy with drop bars, you'll have to make the call.

BigChief 11-27-18 11:14 AM


Originally Posted by jamesj (Post 20679751)
So we all agree that it is a later frame with older crankset. Do you all think the bars are older too? Is there anyway to tell?

The only bad thing is the stem is slightly bent.

The crankset is contemporary with the 1965-1968 frame. Raleigh changed to the 46T chainring with eyeless herons a bit later. Not sure exactly when I'll guess around 1970.

arty dave 11-27-18 04:20 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20679747)
Thanks, its' a work in progress with some more details to attend to come spring. I do have a nice set of drop bars that would look good but wouldn't suit my
riding style. The rear wheel/ hub (1961), although rust free and smooth shifting has a terrible warp that has been slightly corrected (by reefing on it).
I've never laced a wheel so that may be part of my continuing education....

I'm with you with the drop bars... I like to think I could do it and I like the look of them on certain bikes. Particularly vintage shaped handlebars - I have some late 30's bars shaped like Velo Oranges Randonneur bars that I may try with a long stem. But generally my neck doesn't like it, I'm fine with the speeds I can get to on non-drop bars, and I just like being able to take in my surroundings as I'm riding. It's part of the happy happy joy joy thing of the whole experience.
Learning lacing is a nice feather to have in your cap - there's some good paint by numbers instructions out there. Actually there's a good Raleigh wheel building manual - I'll see if I can find it. In my current times of thrift I've taken to buying cheap stainless laced wheels from the landfill shop to harvest spokes from. No breakages yet.

efleigh89 11-27-18 04:34 PM

Used to have an old raleigh 3 speed with the thumb shifter and the old collapsed Brooks seat and all, it was creaky a d heavy but really fun to cruise around on.

gster 11-27-18 05:04 PM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 20680727)
I'm with you with the drop bars... I like to think I could do it and I like the look of them on certain bikes. Particularly vintage shaped handlebars - I have some late 30's bars shaped like Velo Oranges Randonneur bars that I may try with a long stem. But generally my neck doesn't like it, I'm fine with the speeds I can get to on non-drop bars, and I just like being able to take in my surroundings as I'm riding. It's part of the happy happy joy joy thing of the whole experience.
Learning lacing is a nice feather to have in your cap - there's some good paint by numbers instructions out there. Actually there's a good Raleigh wheel building manual - I'll see if I can find it. In my current times of thrift I've taken to buying cheap stainless laced wheels from the landfill shop to harvest spokes from. No breakages yet.

Yes, aesthetically the drop bars look good. I wish my back and neck agreed.
Lacing a wheel is on my list.
I like the recycling angle.
Good for everyone.

BigChief 11-27-18 05:30 PM


Originally Posted by efleigh89 (Post 20680744)
Used to have an old raleigh 3 speed with the thumb shifter and the old collapsed Brooks seat and all, it was creaky a d heavy but really fun to cruise around on.

You should try it again sometime. Especially if you only rode one as a kid and didn't have the knowledge about setup you have now. They can be very pleasant to ride within their limits.

56ford 11-27-18 08:59 PM

I apologize in advance if this question has been asked and answered but Iím curious about wheels. Can I run an alloy wheel on the front and keep the original steel on the rear? Thanks!

Cute Boy Horse 11-27-18 10:22 PM

I'm afraid not, the polarity is different and so the bike will end up trying to go in two directions at once.

gster 11-28-18 02:10 PM


Originally Posted by Cute Boy Horse (Post 20681222)
I'm afraid not, the polarity is different and so the bike will end up trying to go in two directions at once.

I strongly disagree.
The heavier weight of the rear wheel (steel) will increase the momentum of the spinning wheel through centrifugal force
and therefore cause it to turn at a faster rate than the front wheel.
In time, when riding, (even at moderate speeds) you will find the speed and inertia of the rear wheel
will cause it to accelerate past the front.
This can happen quite suddenly and without warning.
This would be a dangerous situation for all concerned.
Rider and innocent bystanders alike.

Ballenxj 11-28-18 02:47 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20682152)
I strongly disagree.
The heavier weight of the rear wheel (steel) will increase the momentum of the spinning wheel through centrifugal force
and therefore cause it to turn at a faster rate than the front wheel.
In time, when riding, (even at moderate speeds) you will find the speed and inertia of the rear wheel
will cause it to accelerate past the front.
This can happen quite suddenly and without warning.
This would be a dangerous situation for all concerned.
Rider and innocent bystanders alike.

You are both wrong, the reverse polarity can, and might cause levitation at the most inopportune times, but if you learn to control this, you then have an opportunity for a remake of E.T.
Sample of what could happen. --->

gster 11-28-18 03:01 PM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 20682210)
You are both wrong, the reverse polarity can, and might cause levitation at the most inopportune times, but if you learn to control this, you then have an opportunity for a remake of E.T.
Sample of what could happen. --->http://youtu.be/gTVoFCP1BLg

I've read a NASA research paper on the subject.
You obviously have access to their TOP SECRET,
Area 51 experimental test video.
Is there a Flux Capacitor involved?

Ballenxj 11-28-18 03:05 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20682240)
I've read a NASA research paper on the subject.
You obviously have access to their TOP SECRET,
Area 51 experimental test video.
Is there a Flux Capacitor involved?

Shhh, I cannot divulge that intel. ;)

52telecaster 11-28-18 03:13 PM


Originally Posted by 56ford (Post 20681109)
I apologize in advance if this question has been asked and answered but Iím curious about wheels. Can I run an alloy wheel on the front and keep the original steel on the rear? Thanks!

yes

clubman 11-29-18 11:35 AM

Britain abandoned the guards on export models because of import tariffs based on weight, or so the popular wisdom goes.

Most of the dutch chainguards were and are reasonably light. Usually it's a metal frame with fibrous panels, almost like a leatherette (or plastic) so the weight penalty is minimal. These never went out of style in Holland, where a large segment of the urban population continues to commute by bike.

BigChief 12-01-18 08:35 AM

Nice looking 1950 Humber in N.H.

https://nh.craigslist.org/bik/d/1950...747232601.html

gster 12-01-18 09:00 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20686111)

I would say that it was a fair price @ 275.00
Old
Complete
Good paint/decals
Dynohub
Looks like a 22"

Stadjer 12-01-18 11:48 AM


Originally Posted by mtb_addict (Post 20683303)
Anybody know why the British decide to build so few bikes with full chain cover, unlike the Dutch?

As I understand the Dutch copied the original British Roadster which had a full chain cover. The Dutch kept the full chain cover and became the norm on almost all their bicycles. Looks like the British abandoned the full chain cover for some reason.

The Dutch copied a lot but also made a lot of changes for the Dutch market. The oil bath chaincase was a British invention, but I believe some improvement in chain technology allowed for just a full leather or fabric cover and that's probably when it became standard on Dutch bikes. It's nice if you don't want to do any maintenance like most Dutch, but if you have to anyway it's a pain in the ass. It makes changing a tube quite a job and it's opening them that wears them out quite quickly. It's a fiddly job that most people don't get right.

The main difference is that the Dutch abandon the full chain case if the first one is beyond repair, usually well before the bike has become an old beater. Fitting a new one is an expensive job, especially if you have it done. So often it gets replaces with a small chain guard or a guard that is only fully closed on one side, but on a new bike there shoulde be a full one. On my 40-year old Dutch roadster it's still on, but not perfectly and only after I learned the saddle stitch, used glue and repaired a hole with duct tape. Maybe I can take it off two more times before it's finished, and then it will be very hard to find a replacement in the right colour, seventies brown.

So actually it makes sense to abandon it and just oil and change the chain more frequently, especially if the bike is mainly for touring in nice weather than for a daily commute in suit in Dutch weather.


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20683365)
Britain abandoned the guards on export models because of import tariffs based on weight, or so the popular wisdom goes.

Most of the dutch chainguards were and are reasonably light. Usually it's a metal frame with fibrous panels, almost like a leatherette (or plastic) so the weight penalty is minimal. These never went out of style in Holland, where a large segment of the urban population continues to commute by bike.

I'm pretty sure weight has never been much of a consideration for Dutch bikes. There were a lot of metal full chain cases in the 60's and 70's too, and these days it's more often hard plastic. The fabric ones are mostly for the (black) classic models.


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