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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Cyclespanner 11-05-23 09:52 AM


Originally Posted by tcs (Post 23062249)
My 'guide to Victorian Times' suggested one purchased ordinary things and paid a tradesman in pounds, but purchased quality goods and paid gentlemen in Guineas.

Alex Moulton fittingly, then, priced his cycles in Guineas. :) From 1965:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0131feedf.jpeg

That should be corrected to....'Pay a tradesman in PENNIES!'

Watched a long documentary about Alex Moulton recently.

A man of many accomplishments. And so he should be.
Didn't realise he was so deep seated in the minor landed gentry, with all the privelidges that entails, plus a product of the British Public School 'Old Boy's' network.

Only the Posh and pretentious dealt in Guineas.

By the beginning of 20th Century a Guinea coin had become as archaic as a 'Spanish Doubloon' LOL

1989Pre 11-05-23 01:43 PM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23062149)
That would have been £1 2/6 back then.
2/6' was a Half Crown (Two Shillings and Six Pence)

Coins at that time were ('Change')
Farthing = 1/4 of a penny = 1/4d
Half Penny - 'ha'penny' = 1/2d
Penny =1d
Three Penny =3d
Sixpence = 6d = 'Tanner''
One Shilling = 1/- = 'Bob'
Two Shillings = 2/- = 'Florin'
Half Crown = 2/6
Crown = five Shillings = 5/-

One Guinea = 21 Shillings (a nominal amount, not a coin as such)

Notes:-
10 Shillings = 'Ten Bob'
£1 - 20 Shillings ='Quid'
£5 - 100 Shillings = 'Five Quid'
£10 - 'Tenner'
£20
I think there was a £50, but common folk never had one!

Being the generation that was introduced to 'Decimalisation' (£1 = 100p) simplified everything; at least to me!

Think I got that lot correct.

I might be wrong, but does that mean if I had a bag with 135 tuppence coins in it, I could buy these pedals?

Paul

Sedgemop 11-05-23 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23060896)
Late season ride - Raleigh Model 35 light roadster.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...102_173351.jpg

Beautiful bike, as usual. Hope you got to break the speed limit just a little.

1989Pre 11-05-23 01:49 PM

Yes, I think these Allez are as hard-to-find as the Webb. I'm aiming at putting some Brampton B8's on the Claud I'm building.

Cyclespanner 11-05-23 01:49 PM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 23062560)
I might be wrong, but does that mean if I had a bag with 135 tuppence coins in it, I could buy these pedals?

Paul

Not sure, am I missing the point here?
£2.70?
I wouldn't take them out of the box for that!

1989Pre 11-05-23 04:05 PM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23062571)
Not sure, am I missing the point here?
£2.70?
I wouldn't take them out of the box for that!

I was just having some fun with it. Math isn't my strong suit.

Iron Horse 11-05-23 08:20 PM


Originally Posted by zookster (Post 23062188)
It has drum brakes front and rear, no dynohub. The bottle generator and headlight still work, but having trouble getting it to maintain sufficient pressure on the tire to operate. I have tried adjusting the position on the fork, but unless I manually press the bottle against the tire it won't spin consistently.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...254395aeb0.jpg

I looked closer at the generator side, and it looks to me that if you lowered the generator mount a little lower on the fork, and rotated it toward the back just a bit, you might have better contact for traction. Make sure it's square to the tire as well to minimize drag. Hope this helps.

gna 11-06-23 09:08 AM


Originally Posted by zookster (Post 23062188)
It has drum brakes front and rear, no dynohub. The bottle generator and headlight still work, but having trouble getting it to maintain sufficient pressure on the tire to operate. I have tried adjusting the position on the fork, but unless I manually press the bottle against the tire it won't spin consistently.

My bad. I thought it was a dynohub.

3 speeds, drum brakes, chaincase--I see Dutch bikes set up like this even today, what they would call an Opafiets:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...269e80a2e4.jpg

Cyclespanner 11-06-23 09:25 AM

Nice cycle, worth sorting.
Drum brakes are good to have.
Interesting how main frame loops in one piece over BB.

noglider 11-06-23 09:47 AM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23057440)
These days it is foolish to be riding a cycle without at least 2 functioning brakes. Even better with 3 options.

Even on dedicated cycle routes there's always some idiot capable of stepping unpredictably right into your path!

An old tandem trick was to mount 2 calipers on each wheel, for instance, one before the fork crown (as normal) but another behind the crown.
Only ever found one online photo of that set-up. I'd be interested in that as an experiment. Anyone got an example to share with us?

I have a tandem with two cantilever brakes. Before we rode it, I wondered if they would suffice, and I find that they do. The bike weighs 50 lbs (23 kg), and together, my spouse and I weigh 280 lbs (127 kg). We have occasionally loaded down a trailer and the brakes were still good enough. We ride in a hilly area. I'm sure some tandems need more than two brakes, but we don't, and I'm pretty demanding of my brakes.

SirMike1983 11-06-23 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by gna (Post 23063279)
My bad. I thought it was a dynohub.

3 speeds, drum brakes, chaincase--I see Dutch bikes set up like this even today, what they would call an Opafiets:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...269e80a2e4.jpg

I recently got a similar Dutch bike from a Facebook Market sale. It is a pretty traditional set up with cable-operated Sturmey drums. It's something of a combination of a roadster and a city bike. It is one of two off-season projects for me to do.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...030_191221.jpg

gna 11-06-23 01:34 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23063333)
I recently got a similar Dutch bike from a Facebook Market sale. It is a pretty traditional set up with cable-operated Sturmey drums. It's something of a combination of a roadster and a city bike. It is one of two off-season projects for me to do.

..and a cafe lock.

The one i pictured is for sale nearby. I'm thinking of buying it, just to get the drum brake hubs.

SirMike1983 11-06-23 02:28 PM

Frankly, I think that Sparta would be a good candidate to refurbish and ride. It's almost too nice to be a parts bike. Looks pretty clean to me.

gna 11-06-23 03:11 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23063618)
Frankly, I think that Sparta would be a good candidate to refurbish and ride. It's almost too nice to be a parts bike. Looks pretty clean to me.

Agreed. But I have enough bikes, aka, my wife would kill me.

SirMike1983 11-07-23 08:40 AM

Recently refurbished 1957 Schwinn Traveler three speed. This one is from a brief period in the 1950s when Schwinn used simpler frame graphics. The graphics were ahead of their time in that they would not be out of place on a 1980s or 90s bike. After this style, Schwinn went to a much more ornate style again.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...104_201956.jpg

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...104_202111.jpg

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...104_202027.jpg

Sedgemop 11-07-23 09:17 PM

Had a fair number of Raleigh 3 speeds over the years, but never a 5 speed Sprite. I've always liked the chainguard and am intrigued by (and a little skeptical of) Sheldon Brown's claim that the Sprite is a livelier alternative to the the Sports. Might like to try out this Sprite during the winter. Anyway, I'm curious if there's a consensus on the 5 speed drivetrain. Does it work well enough? Any chronic issues?

https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...AQ&oe=654EE91D
https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net...-A&oe=65501E28

SirMike1983 11-07-23 09:48 PM

The original version of the S5 hub works fine. The problem points to watch are the original, plastic shifters and the original thin metal bell crank. If you get one with the improved bell crank and pushrod, that's a good start. An improved shifter set up would be a friction shifter non-drive and a 3-speed thumb shifter on the drive side. The original S5 is a little trickier to work on than the 3-speed AW, but it's not overly difficult either.

Just comparing the hubs alone, the S5 gives substantially more range than the AW does. But being coupled to a bike that is otherwise the same (apart from the hub, the Sprite is functionally the same as the Sports), that waters down your gains from the hub. The Sprite is a bit livelier, but you're not getting the most out of it on that bike.

Where an S5 would really come into its own would be on something like an old Lenton or Clubman. The lighter bike could really get going with the tall top gear, and could really bite into the hills with the low bottom gear.

They also can do well on a DL-1 where the extra range is appreciated on a heavy bike.

The S5 was a hub that came after its time. Sturmey Archer was faced with cost-cutting and failed projects like the SW and TCW that should have instead been spent bringing the S5 to market. The S5 should have come out right after the FW did, being derived from the FW. A 5-speed hub coming out in the 1940s or early 50s would have been a revelation to riders and a premium component at that time. But hindsight is 20/20.

nlerner 11-07-23 10:40 PM

I had one of those 5-speed derailleur equipped Sprites, and the shifting performance from that original Huret mech was consistently awful. It did allow me to recreate the 1970 Raleigh catalog photo shoot, however.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8a48085c3.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...db5006b6f.jpeg

adventurepdx 11-08-23 01:12 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 23064983)
I had one of those 5-speed derailleur equipped Sprites, and the shifting performance from that original Huret mech was consistently awful.

I think that's what I had on a Schwinn Collegiate from the same era, and I agree on the awfulness. No matter how much it was adjusted, it never had more than four of the five possible gears, and frequently would only have the three middle gears. How could this derailleur could be considered an "improvement" over, or even a substitute for a Sturmey five speed hub (or even three)? They probably used them because people started thinking derailleurs were "better".

1989Pre 11-08-23 06:15 AM


Originally Posted by adventurepdx (Post 23065064)
I think that's what I had on a Schwinn Collegiate from the same era, and I agree on the awfulness. No matter how much it was adjusted, it never had more than four of the five possible gears, and frequently would only have the three middle gears. How could this derailleur could be considered an "improvement" over, or even a substitute for a Sturmey five speed hub (or even three)? They probably used them because people started thinking derailleurs were "better".

You can swap-out the Allvit for a Svelto, for trouble-free operation.

markk900 11-08-23 07:05 AM

A bit of a wander from 3-speeds, but I had both Svelto and Allvit equipped bikes at the same time and found the shifting of the Allvit to be surprisingly good: I had always eschewed the Allvit as being a low end derailleur. Svelto was also fine but not as good as even a delrin Simplex.

Sedgemop 11-08-23 08:25 AM

Thanks for all the responses, everybody. Thought there were some issues with the shifter and RD. Appreciate the suggestions too, Sir Mike. I think I'm gonna check out the bike and give the drive train a full inspection. If I can pick this one up for south of $100, might be fun to tinker with.

tcs 11-08-23 08:28 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23064949)
The S5 was a hub that came after its time. Sturmey Archer was faced with cost-cutting and failed projects like the SW and TCW that should have instead been spent bringing the S5 to market. The S5 should have come out right after the FW did, being derived from the FW. A 5-speed hub coming out in the 1940s or early 50s would have been a revelation to riders and a premium component at that time. But hindsight is 20/20.


Fun fact: Sturmey-Archer filed their first five-speed patent in 1922!

Sedgemop 11-08-23 08:30 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 23064983)
I had one of those 5-speed derailleur equipped Sprites, and the shifting performance from that original Huret mech was consistently awful. It did allow me to recreate the 1970 Raleigh catalog photo shoot, however.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8a48085c3.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...db5006b6f.jpeg

I endorse this peak bike nerd activity. Nicely done.

tcs 11-08-23 08:40 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 23065142)
...found the shifting of the Allvit to be surprisingly good: I had always eschewed the Allvit as being a low-end derailleur.

In France, Singers and Herses were equipped with Allvits and it was considered to be quite a good piece of kit.

In America, Varsities came with Allvits, and the derailleur was considered a bottom feeder.

IMO the unique Allvit is really a cool rear derailer. It features:

1. A parallelogram action that moves down as it moves in. This allows the guide pulley to maintain an equal distance from each of the 14-28T cogs for accurate shifting.

2. A guide pulley that is mounted co-axially with the cage pivot. The guide pulley doesn't change its position relative to the freewheel cogs when the front derailleur is shifted. This allows consistent rear shifting even with large size differences in the front chainwheels.

3. A derailer body that forms a protective cover over the working parts.

4. A well-thought-out, highly producible design for manufacture - there is really only one part, the main control arm, that can't be made from sheet metal or on an automatic lathe.



"I was too hard on the Allvit." Frank Berto



The innovation continued with the 1958 Allvit, which was the first drop-out mounted derailleur that featured a constant chain gap – achieved by suspending the parallelogram from the bottom of a steel arm that mounted to the dropout. A few years later, the Allvit directly inspired SunTour’s slant parallelogram derailleurs.

“During this time, Huret’s derailleurs were considered the best-shifting and most durable derailleurs for the wide gear ranges. Both René Herse and Alex Singer equipped most of their bikes with the Allvit, Luxe and super light Jubilee derailleurs that remained in the program for 35 years.” - Jan Heine

SirMike1983 11-08-23 09:09 AM

I guess this is a 5-speed derailleur Sprite rather than the S5 Sprite. I'm not sure why the pictures of the bike won't show up on my computer, but my fault if I've got the wrong Sprite.

On the 5-speed hub, yes- they had a concept down early on. I first learned that when I got Tony Hadland's excellent Sturmey Archer book and read through it. I was surprised that they were so far advanced in those post-WW1 years. It would have been a huge leap forward in 1922. Even had the S5 come out 30 years later, in 1952, as a follow-on to the FW, that still would have been good progress. By bringing the S5 out so late (along with those fragile plastic shifters and the sheetmetal bell crank), it sort of became a footnote rather than a key piece of what Sturmey was offering and selling.

adventurepdx 11-08-23 11:53 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 23065122)
You can swap-out the Allvit for a Svelto, for trouble-free operation.

Good to know. But I had that Collegiate over 15 years ago, and doubt I'd seek another bike like that.

Sedgemop 11-08-23 12:10 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23065224)
I guess this is a 5-speed derailleur Sprite rather than the S5 Sprite. I'm not sure why the pictures of the bike won't show up on my computer, but my fault if I've got the wrong Sprite.

On the 5-speed hub, yes- they had a concept down early on. I first learned that when I got Tony Hadland's excellent Sturmey Archer book and read through it. I was surprised that they were so far advanced in those post-WW1 years. It would have been a huge leap forward in 1922. Even had the S5 come out 30 years later, in 1952, as a follow-on to the FW, that still would have been good progress. By bringing the S5 out so late (along with those fragile plastic shifters and the sheetmetal bell crank), it sort of became a footnote rather than a key piece of what Sturmey was offering and selling.

Thanks for the 5 speed hub info anyway, SirMike. It's valuable info. Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled 3 speed love.

thumpism 11-08-23 04:44 PM

Rode my Sports for the first time in months today. The Brooks B15 from an old project Raleigh Competition hurts my out-of-condition butt, the stem reach is too short, the grips bug my hands and when braking the rim irregularities bother me. I really should make the time to correct all these things and ride it more. It used to be my school commuter. I'm also going to ride the Marin dropbar conversion tomorrow. These two were the easiest to get to and all they needed was to be aired up. I'm also trying to declutter the garage.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1285207db6.jpg

SkinGriz 11-08-23 09:26 PM


Originally Posted by Sedgemop (Post 23065422)
Thanks for the 5 speed hub info anyway, SirMike. It's valuable info. Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled 3 speed love.

BF needs at least one thread to stay on topic.


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