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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

thumpism 01-11-17 03:07 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by sirpecangum (Post 19306800)
Character! Funny but true however, I attach a photo of character steel, failed. Frightening. What is OA? I have tried clear coating steel before with polyurethane and it rusts.

OA is Oxalic Acid, used for rust removal and probably an ingredient in brand name products that do the same thing. Once the surface is rust-free, coat it with something like sprayed-on clear lacquer or enamel to protect the bare metal surface. Your bike really looks okay to me other than the (admittedly prolific) surface rust. Considering how much work you've already done, it would be a shame just to let it go.

The local co-op had the bones of a ladies' Raleigh Sports that appeared to have been kept at the bottom of the sea for a while, but it was gone last time I went by. If I didn't already have one I'd have considered trying to bring that one back. My own 3-speeds are worn and chipped with some rust but are not nearly this bad.
Attachment 548659

desconhecido 01-11-17 03:14 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 19306975)
I always knew that this is possible, but I'd never seen it until now.

what do you think, does it look like a corrosion problem or the result of bad construction/brazing? Well, yeah, there's a lot of rust, but I don't see any brass in the joints that pulled apart. I'm thinking that what this may be an example of is water intrusion into the interface between the frame tubes and the lugs -- a space that should have been penetrated with brazing material and that should have been immune from water penetration.

I've seen some pretty poor brazing jobs on Raleighs from the 70s: poor fitting lugs and massive and obvious voids.

Pretty ugly, in any event.

desconhecido 01-11-17 03:33 PM


Originally Posted by sirpecangum (Post 19306800)
Character! Funny but true however, I attach a photo of character steel, failed. Frightening. What is OA? I have tried clear coating steel before with polyurethane and it rusts.

OA is oxalic acid which will convert rust into some sort of yellow crud which can be washed away. It's great to soak rusty chromed parts in and works a miracle, but I don't like the idea of soaking frames in it as I don't see any way to get all the crud out and any area inside the frame that doesn't get treated with some sort of inhibitor will likely rust again. Also, I think that there is a possibility of hydrogen embrittlement though I don't know if that's a serious concern or not. Lots of people disagree with me on OA as a frame soak and get good results so maybe I'm just outgassing.

If you are going to clearcoat over areas with rust, you're going to need to stop the corrosion process first. Some sort of stuff with phosphoric acid in it will do that -- it's what is used in the auto repair industry to remove the unavoidable surface rust that forms almost instantaneously on any bare, untreated iron or carbon steel. The process is to remove the rust mechanically and than treat with some sort of phosphate agent which converts remaining rust to some phosphate compound which will inhibit future rust. Smooth it out and paint either color or clearcoat. Sometimes people refer to the results of phosphoric acid treatment as "etching." Paint sticks well to treated iron/steel and it won't corrode if protected from the elements, i.e. painted.

That broken frame is indeed ugly, but I question how much of the problem was from poor assembly/brazing. Looks like the areas of the top tube and bottom tube that were actually brazed are pretty small.

desconhecido 01-11-17 03:39 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 19307085)
The local co-op had the bones of a ladies' Raleigh Sports that appeared to have been kept at the bottom of the sea for a while, but it was gone last time I went by. If I didn't already have one I'd have considered trying to bring that one back. My own 3-speeds are worn and chipped with some rust but are not nearly this bad.
Attachment 548659

Yeah, that's pretty nasty but even the ugliest Sports is likely to have something worth salvage. Even just the headset or bottom bracket could prove useful if you find a bike more worthy of attention. Beats the heck out of buying stuff from Greece on ebay. And, a fixable AW hub alone is probably worth the price of a crapped out Sports.

edited: Back when the hurricane hit Galveston/Houston (Ike in, as I remember, 2008), Galveston flooded --pretty much of the island under sea water. I've seen some bikes and cars salvaged after the flood and it's a very, very depressing sight.

boattail71 01-11-17 03:39 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 19286253)

On the Yellow Jersey site there is an ad for a repro reflector in black that looks pretty good. I get the impression that some things on their site may not actually be available. I've never bought from them, I think others have with good results.

Does anyone have the website or other contact information on "Yellow Jersey" or any other supplier for that matter for a reflector and housing?

Thanks!

boattail71 01-11-17 03:41 PM


Originally Posted by 9volt (Post 19286242)
I have this black SA reflector that likely came from a Raleigh 3 speed. Not sure if I have a white one.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q0s0fjkcLX...680-745400.JPG

Needed is a repro reflector like this...

desconhecido 01-11-17 04:31 PM


Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 19307168)
Does anyone have the website or other contact information on "Yellow Jersey" or any other supplier for that matter for a reflector and housing?

Thanks!

This will get you to there ad for the reflector Spares and Accessories for Roadster Bicycles Raleigh Tourist 28" 635mm at Yellow Jersey Westwood Rims is another keyword Rod brakes British spares Whitworth Phillips Tourist.

It's a strange site with lots of pages that don't look like they've been updated in about 20 years. The whole thing has a sort of "vintage" look to it.

BigChief 01-12-17 08:40 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 19307085)
OA is Oxalic Acid, used for rust removal and probably an ingredient in brand name products that do the same thing. Once the surface is rust-free, coat it with something like sprayed-on clear lacquer or enamel to protect the bare metal surface. Your bike really looks okay to me other than the (admittedly prolific) surface rust. Considering how much work you've already done, it would be a shame just to let it go.

The local co-op had the bones of a ladies' Raleigh Sports that appeared to have been kept at the bottom of the sea for a while, but it was gone last time I went by. If I didn't already have one I'd have considered trying to bring that one back. My own 3-speeds are worn and chipped with some rust but are not nearly this bad.
Attachment 548659

In my years of salvaging old English bikes, I've found that bikes in good condition are far more likely to have worn out bottom brackets from use than rusted hulks like this one. Of course, you won't know until you take it apart, but a bike like this is likely to yield a good 16 GC spindle and bearing cups. Tough to find if you need them. Unfortunately, headsets don't usually survive a bad rusting.

thumpism 01-12-17 10:38 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19308296)
In my years of salvaging old English bikes, I've found that bikes in good condition are far more likely to have worn out bottom brackets from use than rusted hulks like this one. Of course, you won't know until you take it apart, but a bike like this is likely to yield a good 16 GC spindle and bearing cups. Tough to find if you need them. Unfortunately, headsets don't usually survive a bad rusting.

That one is long gone, and I don't generally drag these things home in order to scavenge parts from the carcass.

On the other hand, I purely hate to see one in the trash.

BigChief 01-12-17 01:18 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 19308625)
That one is long gone, and I don't generally drag these things home in order to scavenge parts from the carcass.

On the other hand, I purely hate to see one in the trash.

I've saved a lot of bikes from the scrap pile over the years. I'll even strip and de-rust frames and forks so I can inspect them thoroughly. Only things that are dangerous to use or pitted badly are sent to the recycle pile at the town dump. I save every usable piece.

bazil4696 01-12-17 02:16 PM


Originally Posted by sirpecangum (Post 19306800)
Character! Funny but true however, I attach a photo of character steel, failed. Frightening. What is OA? I have tried clear coating steel before with polyurethane and it rusts.

Those tubes are torn out of the lug, probably from poor brazing prep, not catostrophic failure from rust. Although there is rust, it doesn't appear to have caused that much character.

BigChief 01-14-17 09:19 AM

I'm going to amend my opinion about the gearing of my roadster. My ride this morning had me in a stiff head wind a good 10 miles headed home and I didn't resent the lower gearing from the 46Tx22T one bit. The rolling resistance from the 1 1/2" tires isn't very noticeable with still air, but every little bit counts in a head wind. On the positive side, the roadster handles sand very well. The roads here are narrow and being forced onto sandy shoulders isn't the white knuckle experience you sometimes get with thin tires.

thumpism 01-14-17 11:51 AM

I was clicking through the photos of one bike on CL this morning and had a "WTF" moment. Just some junky Muffay thang with Shimano hub but...

BICYCLE VINTAGE ANTIQUE ATKINS "SEBRING" 3-SPEED 26"

BICYCLE VINTAGE ANTIQUE ATKINS "SEBRING" 3-SPEED 26" - $35 (HENRICO)

https://images.craigslist.org/00606_...xe_600x450.jpg
https://images.craigslist.org/00X0X_...Sw_600x450.jpg

My wife is selling her vintage bike that she bought back in 1972. Still in fair condition. Will need tires of course and oiling of the moving parts. Nothing locked up on the bike. It has been in a shed all these yrs. Thanks, Ronnie

DQRider 01-14-17 11:58 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19312596)
I'm going to amend my opinion about the gearing of my roadster. My ride this morning had me in a stiff head wind a good 10 miles headed home and I didn't resent the lower gearing from the 46Tx22T one bit. The rolling resistance from the 1 1/2" tires isn't very noticeable with still air, but every little bit counts in a head wind. On the positive side, the roadster handles sand very well. The roads here are narrow and being forced onto sandy shoulders isn't the white knuckle experience you sometimes get with thin tires.

That's about perfect gearing for a roadster though, don't you think? I mean, how fast do you want to go on such a dignified steed? I did the S.B. gear calculator for your setup (S-A AW, right?) at 80rpm, and came up with this:

0.75 (Low) 10.5mph
1.0 (Normal) 13.9mph
1.33 (High) 18.6mph


So if you're in high gear pedaling semi-fast, you are going almost 19 mph and fighting 3x the wind resistance than if you were pedaling at 60 rpm, which is ~14 mph. And with a headwind, that difference increases even more. On my bikes, I consider anything faster than 20mph in top gear at 80rpm a waste. Better to go with shorter gearing for the hills.

But then I guess I forgot: this is your "Path Racer", right? Better put a 16t on there! :rolleyes:

dweenk 01-14-17 11:59 AM

^^^^ I bet $25 would take that one. S/A shifter/alloy brakes & levers/handle bars that should clean up decently/cool chain guard and other bits.

BigChief 01-14-17 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 19312856)
That's about perfect gearing for a roadster though, don't you think? I mean, how fast do you want to go on such a dignified steed? I did the S.B. gear calculator for your setup (S-A AW, right?) at 80rpm, and came up with this:

0.75 (Low) 10.5mph
1.0 (Normal) 13.9mph
1.33 (High) 18.6mph


So if you're in high gear pedaling semi-fast, you are going almost 19 mph and fighting 3x the wind resistance than if you were pedaling at 60 rpm, which is ~14 mph. And with a headwind, that difference increases even more. On my bikes, I consider anything faster than 20mph in top gear at 80rpm a waste. Better to go with shorter gearing for the hills.

But then I guess I forgot: this is your "Path Racer", right? Better put a 16t on there! :rolleyes:

After my experience today, I'm going to say that you're right and a 22T cog suites the roadster even a later one with the smaller chainwheel. I don't know why Raleigh fitted them with 16T cogs. Overdrive was crazy tall and useless unless you ha Reg Harris legs and wanted to keep up with friends on road bikes.

thumpism 01-14-17 12:50 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 19312860)
^^^^ I bet $25 would take that one. S/A shifter/alloy brakes & levers/handle bars that should clean up decently/cool chain guard and other bits.

If you're talking about this bike...
BICYCLE VINTAGE ANTIQUE ATKINS "SEBRING" 3-SPEED 26" - $35 (HENRICO)

It does not have the Sturmey shifter. It only has a Shimano trigger to shift its Shimano hub. That was the point of my post; that people will put the damnedest stuff in their ads without regard to proofing. The Altenburger calipers are okay but I've never liked exposed-clamp levers, even if they are alloy.

The shots are obviously of two different bikes and the one with the Sturmey shifter (the red women's bike) may actually be the one for sale. If it also has a Sturmey hub it would be worth the money for someone who wants to mess with it, but even then it has marginal appeal for me (space, hassle). The Shimano shifter/hub appears to be on the green men's bike.

SirMike1983 01-14-17 07:19 PM

46-22 is a good, low gearing and does work well on the 28 inch wheel bikes. It can be very easy to "out ride your brakes" on a DL-1 if you are going fast with taller gearing on the stock steel rims. Even with Kool Stop pads, and proper adjustment, the rod brake system with stock rims is mediocre at best. If you're pushing 48-18 or 46-16 gearing hard on a flat or downhill, you're in trouble if you need to emergency stop with the stock braking system. I think 46-22 gives much better low gearing while giving reasonable cruising speeds in high.

Sixty Fiver 01-15-17 03:11 AM

It has been a while... nice to see that folks are still here.

Pretty soon it will be seven years since post number 1.

Dang.

BigChief 01-15-17 08:12 AM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 19314006)
It has been a while... nice to see that folks are still here.

Pretty soon it will be seven years since post number 1.

Dang.

It's been around so long because the people here have made it a great thread. I've learned a lot and found that I'm not alone in the world with my 3 speed hobby. My thanks and appreciation to all of you.

gster 01-15-17 05:37 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 19314006)
It has been a while... nice to see that folks are still here.

Pretty soon it will be seven years since post number 1.

Dang.

Thank you, Godfather.

JohnDThompson 01-15-17 09:23 PM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 19314006)
It has been a while... nice to see that folks are still here.

Pretty soon it will be seven years since post number 1.

Good to see you're still around. I've been wondering where you've been.

Sixty Fiver 01-15-17 09:33 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 19315450)
Good to see you're still around. I've been wondering where you've been.

Thanks.

The legs aren't working as good these days and I haven't been on a bike in months although ... will have to bust out my snappy new winter bike which isn't a three speed but has some nice SA drum brakes on a freewheel hub.

elcraft 01-15-17 09:41 PM


Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 19307168)
Does anyone have the website or other contact information on "Yellow Jersey" or any other supplier for that matter for a reflector and housing?u

Thanks!

Look for yellowjersey.org

sykerocker 01-16-17 07:28 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19312927)
After my experience today, I'm going to say that you're right and a 22T cog suites the roadster even a later one with the smaller chainwheel. I don't know why Raleigh fitted them with 16T cogs. Overdrive was crazy tall and useless unless you ha Reg Harris legs and wanted to keep up with friends on road bikes.

I've made a practice of putting a Shimano 23 tooth sprocket on every IGH roadster I've owned, from my Raleigh Tourist to my Twenty. I've found that swapping the 16 for the 23 effectively drop third gear to what used to be second, second down to roughly first, and first becomes something that can actually climb a couple of the hills in my neighborhood.

Doing this conversion on my '69 Sprite has me rarely using the left side shifter under drive.


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