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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Ballenxj 03-27-18 10:08 AM


Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti (Post 20247032)
If you replace a 18 tooth with 22 you need 4 more links to position the wheel as it was in the rear dropouts.

That formula seems to add one link per additional tooth on the rear sprocket? That actually makes sense. ;)

browngw 03-27-18 10:09 AM

2 Attachment(s)
While at a Sports/ Bicycle(Giant) shop in a neighbouring town this morning, I spied these in an old drawer while looking for a brake hanger for centre pull brakes. I picked up some tubes and pedals and the springs were thrown in for free. Looks like a lifetime supply of both SA and Shimano pawl springs. Must be more than a 100.

johnnyspaghetti 03-27-18 10:23 AM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 20247985)
That formula seems to add one link per additional tooth on the rear sprocket? That actually makes sense. ;)

It would be better to take the old chain and wrap it around the sprockets and measure the distance it's short. 1 link = 1/2 inch.

Thinking about it the sprocket is a larger diameter but the chain only wraps around half of it.

So my my link per cog theory could be flawed.
I did change a crank from 46 to 48 tooth recently and it needed 2 links pressed in.

This particular chain had 1/2 links where the masterlink joins that look like this.

Left to right is first a half link , then a masterlink w/link, then link, pins & plates.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&i...1&disp=safe&zw

boattail71 03-27-18 06:02 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 20247192)
They were made with either a curved upper down tube (called a "loop" frame or "crescent") or a straight upper down tube, what most would call a typical ladies' frame, probably in 20" or 22" but I'm not certain about that. I'm sure a Tourist pro will chime in with specifics.

Those "loop" or "crescent" are much older. Right? Frame would be measured center-to-top on seat tube. Right?

boattail71 03-27-18 06:07 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20247438)
So, I did go out last weekend to pick up this tall frame, as well as a box of assorted useful parts.
Attachment 604833
Turned out to be a stalled project bike. The young owner had trouble with the cotters and moved on to a 1962 Glider 3 speed instead. His Glider inherited the hub from the Robin Hood and I, in turn have the '62 hub.
His '62 turned out quite nice and he'll send me some photos which I'll post.
I'll post some shots this weekend and update the progress.
BTW, I managed to get the cotters out with a couple of good whacks..

What is a "Glider?"

Sorry for my ignorance

johnnyspaghetti 03-27-18 06:32 PM

[QUOTE=boattail71;20249035]What is a "Glider?"

Sorry for my ignorance[/QumUOTE]The chain case is vinyl fabric on Holland dutch sucks sjob for chain cover sucks. I meant it. Yes I am continuyion. derilliom.ciramic disicetirorum

boattail71 03-27-18 06:52 PM


Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti (Post 20249069)
The chain case is vinyl fabric on Hoallnd dutch job for chain cover suck

Um... what? Repeat. What is a "Glider?" Someone help an average Joe who is learning to appreciate our/my English finds.

Again, sorry for ignorance.

clubman 03-27-18 07:01 PM


Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 20249091)
Um... what? Repeat. What is a "Glider?" Someone help an average Joe who is learning to appreciate our/my English finds.

Again, sorry for ignorance.

Sorry Glider is a Raleigh rebrand, distributed in Canada by The T. Eaton Department chain. Pretty much clones of the Raleigh line from the 60's on. The Glider name goes further back than Eatons Raleigh though, I had a twin bar beauty that was probably pre-war and was a Birmingham bike. No pics, but it happened.

boattail71 03-27-18 08:10 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20249103)
Sorry Glider is a Raleigh rebrand, distributed in Canada by The T. Eaton Department chain. Pretty much clones of the Raleigh line from the 60's on. The Glider name goes further back than Eatons Raleigh though, I had a twin bar beauty that was probably pre-war and was a Birmingham bike. No pics, but it happened.

Thanks, Club. So Gliders are not common here in the States. Yes? Hence my ignorance as a life-long Coloradoan. I'll try to be happy with my limited knowledge of my shy English stable including Raleigh, Hercules, Robin Hood, and Western Flyer (Norman), and I think I have a Sun somewhere. Regardless, I'll try to glide over arcane brands I'm likely not gonna see anytime soon. Logic appreciable? Gliding info is appreciable of course - don't wanna sound callus. Thanks all! And keep informing me/us.

--Ignorant but trying.

Ballenxj 03-27-18 09:22 PM


Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 20249209)
I'll try to be happy with my limited knowledge of my shy English stable including Raleigh, Hercules, Robin Hood, and Western Flyer (Norman), and I think I have a Sun somewhere.

Western Flyer? Were some of those made in England? I always thought they were all built in the U.S.?

desconhecido 03-27-18 09:57 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20247954)
Yet another candidate for a cotter press!

If you whack them out, you run the risk of damaging the bearing cups, bearings and bottom bracket axle, the crank arm(s), plus the cotters themselves. If your whack is unsuccessful, drilling might become the only option, and the resulting damage to the axle can be heartbreaking- they are not that common any more. The original cotters are usually much harder than the new ones you find these days, and if your bike has the 'Raleigh nuts' retaining the cotters, they probably won't be usable with a replacement.[...]

After my first adventure trying to extract original cotters from an old Raleigh Sports I bought a cotter press from the BikeSmith guy. It's a bit older design than his current, but works fine. I hart my cotter press.

The first ones I had to drill out after having smashed them attempting removal. Even with the press, I've found it tough to remove the old cotters without bending them. I've ended up drilling a couple sets. I am fortunate in having a drill press which makes it easier, but it's still sort of an adventure with the drill press quill rotating in close proximity to the chain ring. Anyway, if they must be drilled, it's not too bad. A 6mm or 1/4" bit will find the softer material of the cotter and won't damage the spindle. That's my experience, anyway.

Cheap cotters can be had, but the R nuts won't work on them -- or any new cotter, as far as I know. The cotter material is really quite soft and easy to file. Just file them to about the profile that bikesmith shows for Raleigh cotters and if they press in about the same amount on both sides, well, Bob's your uncle.

If you're trying to save the old cotters, I've found that applying heat helps. Put the press on and crank it down so there's a bit of force on it but not enough to bend anything and while the press is in place, heat that puppy up with a heat gun and it's likely to come free.

Chaser95 03-27-18 11:02 PM

I made a cotter press from a top beam clamp and an old machine nut. I put the nut on the back side of the cotter to give it a space to go as the clamp is putting the pressure on the cotter. Works great!

gster 03-28-18 04:01 AM

3 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 20249209)
Thanks, Club. So Gliders are not common here in the States. Yes? Hence my ignorance as a life-long Coloradoan. I'll try to be happy with my limited knowledge of my shy English stable including Raleigh, Hercules, Robin Hood, and Western Flyer (Norman), and I think I have a Sun somewhere. Regardless, I'll try to glide over arcane brands I'm likely not gonna see anytime soon. Logic appreciable? Gliding info is appreciable of course - don't wanna sound callus. Thanks all! And keep informing me/us.

--Ignorant but trying.

Here's a recent Glider project of mine
Attachment 604942
And another
[ATTACH]Attachment 604944[/ATTACH]

gster 03-28-18 04:13 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by gster (Post 20249494)
here's a recent glider project of mine
Attachment 604942
and another
[attach]Attachment 604944[/attach]

Attachment 604946
Using the inflation calculator, $31.50 in 1933 works out to $588.00 today.

BigChief 03-28-18 06:17 AM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20249367)
After my first adventure trying to extract original cotters from an old Raleigh Sports I bought a cotter press from the BikeSmith guy. It's a bit older design than his current, but works fine. I hart my cotter press.

The first ones I had to drill out after having smashed them attempting removal. Even with the press, I've found it tough to remove the old cotters without bending them. I've ended up drilling a couple sets. I am fortunate in having a drill press which makes it easier, but it's still sort of an adventure with the drill press quill rotating in close proximity to the chain ring. Anyway, if they must be drilled, it's not too bad. A 6mm or 1/4" bit will find the softer material of the cotter and won't damage the spindle. That's my experience, anyway.

Cheap cotters can be had, but the R nuts won't work on them -- or any new cotter, as far as I know. The cotter material is really quite soft and easy to file. Just file them to about the profile that bikesmith shows for Raleigh cotters and if they press in about the same amount on both sides, well, Bob's your uncle.

If you're trying to save the old cotters, I've found that applying heat helps. Put the press on and crank it down so there's a bit of force on it but not enough to bend anything and while the press is in place, heat that puppy up with a heat gun and it's likely to come free.

I haven't yet had to drill all the way through a cotter to remove it. Hope I didn't jinx myself here! The important thing I've found is that if the threaded end of the cotter starts to bend from pressing, there's no point in pressing or driving it any further. It's like trying to drive a bent nail. I file a flat on the end of the cotter, center punch it and drill into it a little bit so I have a good center to keep the force in the right direction. Then I use a husky pointed center punch and hammer to drive the pin. It also makes a lot of sense to support the crank with something solid while you drive the cotter. Like a piece of 2x4 with a hole for the cotter against a cement floor.

Chaser95 03-28-18 08:46 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 20249312)
Western Flyer? Were some of those made in England? I always thought they were all built in the U.S.?

Yes.......mine has the remnants of the familiar "Made in england" script on the top.

paulb_in_bkln 03-28-18 08:49 AM

Will be replacing a stripped AW hub axle (early 70s) with a NOS one. A kit of replacement parts came with four axle washers, the ones that prevent the axle rotating in the slot in the dropout. Two pair, slightly different in size and detail. Anyone know the reasons for the two different types? For different hub models?

desconhecido 03-28-18 09:06 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20249874)
Will be replacing a stripped AW hub axle (early 70s) with a NOS one. A kit of replacement parts came with four axle washers, the ones that prevent the axle rotating in the slot in the dropout. Two pair, slightly different in size and detail. Anyone know the reasons for the two different types? For different hub models?

If I'm understanding correctly, you have two different anti-rotation washer sets -- one for each of the possible dropout widths you may encounter.

Look:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/...her-parts.html

I think you are talking about part #20 Part# HMW155 and HMW494.

browngw 03-28-18 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 20247990)
While at a Sports/ Bicycle(Giant) shop in a neighbouring town this morning, I spied these in an old drawer while looking for a brake hanger for centre pull brakes. I picked up some tubes and pedals and the springs were thrown in for free. Looks like a lifetime supply of both SA and Shimano pawl springs. Must be more than a 100.

Actually, I counted them last night and there are 87. If anyone needs a few let me know. I will take some to the Canadian Vintage Bicycle Show in June to share with my Canadian 3speed colleagues.

thumpism 03-28-18 09:33 AM


Originally Posted by boattail71 (Post 20249209)
Thanks, Club. So Gliders are not common here in the States. Yes? Hence my ignorance as a life-long Coloradoan. I'll try to be happy with my limited knowledge of my shy English stable including Raleigh, Hercules, Robin Hood, and Western Flyer (Norman), and I think I have a Sun somewhere. Regardless, I'll try to glide over arcane brands I'm likely not gonna see anytime soon. Logic appreciable? Gliding info is appreciable of course - don't wanna sound callus. Thanks all! And keep informing me/us.

--Ignorant but trying.

Gliders pop up occasionally in the States. There was one here on CL several months ago. Maybe they come south for the winter and like the longer riding season.

boattail71 03-28-18 10:58 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 20249312)
Western Flyer? Were some of those made in England? I always thought they were all built in the U.S.?

I have a men's/women's Norman built Western Flyer purchased new by my folks in 1958 from a Western Auto in Wyoming. The men's bike has the much maligned Sturmey SW hub. I also have a more common US made Western Flyer one-speed probably built by Murray.

paulb_in_bkln 03-28-18 11:18 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20249925)
If I'm understanding correctly, you have two different anti-rotation washer sets -- one for each of the possible dropout widths you may encounter.

I think you are talking about part #20 Part# HMW155 and HMW494.

Yes, two different anti-rotation washers. One is like HMW155. The other doesn't show in Sheldon's list, the tabs that fit in the dropout slot are straight, not curvy, and the washer's outside diameter is slightly bigger. But they fit the same size slot and axle. I could use either but HMW155 is a snugger fit. My real confusion was whether both sets are supposed to be used, one inside the dropouts, the other on the outside. But now I think no--either type could go inside or outside the dropout, but if used on the inside, I'd want to have a plain flatwasher under the axle nut. (The photo shows the difference.)

desconhecido 03-28-18 11:43 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20250240)
Yes, two different anti-rotation washers. One is like HMW155. The other doesn't show in Sheldon's list, the tabs that fit in the dropout slot are straight, not curvy, and the washer's outside diameter is slightly bigger. But they fit the same size slot and axle. I could use either but HMW155 is a snugger fit. My real confusion was whether both sets are supposed to be used, one inside the dropouts, the other on the outside. But now I think no--either type could go inside or outside the dropout, but if used on the inside, I'd want to have a plain flatwasher under the axle nut. (The photo shows the difference.)

BTSOOM. I don't think I've ever seen one of those. Unless there is a difference in thickness to adjust for sllightly different dropout spacing, I don't know. Can't find a matching picture in the SA stuff from SJS, which seems to have the most complete selection of SA.

BigChief 03-28-18 12:49 PM

I use the anti rotation washers on the outside of the dropout. Easier to install that way. I prefer the type on the left. They allow more room to adjust chain tension.

paulb_in_bkln 03-28-18 01:15 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20250297)
BTSOOM.

Ha! I don't think it will make a big difference which I use. Just glad I found a NOS axle so I'm not clapping on another old clapped out one. Just for the record, I love the English bikes with these 3-speed hubs and it bothers me to see so many unappreciated, abandoned here on the sidewalk, getting beat up by the elements until eventually there's nothing left. The open frame (girls) models especially get no respect. Also I'm glad after all these years to have an excuse to rebuild one. I've never tried that before.


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