I'm not sure if I should be thanking you or blaming you for this thread :thumb: Through it I found out about the Lake Pepin 3-speed tour, which was about as much fun as I have ever had on a bike. My first recent foray into British 3-speeds was for that tour. Its been nice to rediscover the charm of the lowly 3-speed hub after all these years since high school; back then it was always on a Schwinn instead of a proper British machine. Now I have more 3-speeds than any other kind of bike.

Aha! Plenty of spare donor hubs laying around... thanks!

Here is a Dutch built Magneet that got a 4 speed upgrade... from what I know it may have been accidental. When the bike was taken in for service in the late 40's (It is a 1946 model) it went in as a three speed and came back as a four speed with the alloy hub shell.

With the 3-4 speed shifter the mechanic may have got his wheels mixed up and the hub date is later than the bike.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...neet%20(2).JPG

The fellow who is selling this bike bought it for his girlfriend in 1946 so I don't question the date... they married and emigrated to Canada and brought the bike with them. She passed away a few years ago and as no-one rides this bicycle anymore he wants to find it a new home.

I think it probably has too many memories attached to it for him to keep.

^^ +1

I think that is how it was when I got my 1953 Humber his'n'hers Sports.

So this morning I took apart a potential donor SA hub and installed the carrier in the Brampton hub. It seemed to go OK but I could not install the bearing cone. The Brampton employed a ring on the end of the spring which had to go (the SA lacks this ring- just has the spring engage the cone directly). Then the cone went on OK but did not turn well against the SA carrier. So it took it off and installed the SA cone instead. That sorted things out! The hub, despite years of no lubrication and storage, turns really freely with a very slight play detectable only at the rim of the wheel. I suspect it will be better once oil has circulated. I did grease the bearings with some lithium grease while I was in there...

So just for the record- if you want to retro-fit a Brampton hub with a carrier such that you can change cogs by removal of the snap ring, its pretty easy if you have a Sturmey Archer hub as a donor. The parts are that close, even though Brampton made all the parts themselves.

Just so I would not loose the old Brampton parts I installed them on the donor SA hub and they worked fine. So this swap can go in either direction.

We think exactly alike - if anyone ever inherits my collection of parts they will have a surprise if they try to trace the provenance of the parts by year!

Looking through the many pics, made me curious of the saddle brands on English bikes, specifically Raleigh. Perhaps an expert on deciphering date codes of the DL-1 can better explain but for a few years, there was an issue of quality by Brooks and Raleigh sourced elsewhere. Anyhow, if you install a new Brooks on your bike, you could say it was made with machines from the late 40's and early 50's.

You might not have looked at the page at the link...

What I'm saying is that it IS the same kickstand...

[for the paltry sum of $4.95]

Check it out!

Those were cool videos.

i didn't check it out as i had already made the purchase . where were you 2 weeks ago ..i would have gladly paid the 5 bucks for the thor . i googled sports stands and that's what came up . the stand still isn't here and its last scanned by the usps on the third ( the day it was shipped ) . if it doesn't show ill be getting the thor . i see on the sellers store that he sells the rubber tips for 10 dollars , thor for 2 dollars . i think he shops there too...i messaged him and he was like " I've sold 7000 items and not one has ever been lost . never say never . thanks for the link . a little late , but that's not your fault .

I have a '74 tall Sports that I use in a similar manner from time to time. I call him "Fast Fred" and it's pretty amazing what he'll do in top gear with that 17T cog.

Speaking of wifely saddles; my wife's "Promenade bike" is a very nice '74 Sports in the metallic blue of that year. When I bought it from a bicycle enthusiast outside Asheville a few years back it had the original, well-maintained B72 on it but I took that off and put it on an LTD3 I have and put a new tan B66S on the "Bluebird" for her. It's a stunning combination IMO.

Ha-Ha! I believe that you have been bitten seriously by the bug my dear... And thanks for the input on the foobarred hub; that was the first thing I was going to try.

If you travel back to Post #4057 on about Page 163 of this thread you'll see a Gold/Chrome Hercules that I picked up for $50 - with new Specialized TriSports on it - when the bike flipper couldn't sell it for a couple of months. I have no doubt at all that he would have gotten $150 for the bike in that condition had it been a Raleigh...

Oh, and the blue Raleigh-built Western Auto - 1964 AW Hub - set me back a cool $5. I was going to part it out but have decided to make a kind of quasi path racer out of it....

I experienced the dreaded "no gear engagement" between Normal & High today. Scared me and I bit my tongue. I was in High, just starting up a tiny rise on the path. Mid way up, I stopped pedaling, shifted to"N" then began pedaling .....and nothing was there. I wasn't in gear. Fortunately I've read that this can happen. Also fortunate that I was going walking speed, so I didn't crash.

Im familiar with how to set the indicator: Put shifter into "N", adjust so that shoulder of indicator pin is even or just 1 mm past end of axle. In "H" cable should be lax. In "L" cable should be tight, BUT you should be able to pull a tiny bit of chain a bit further. I think I had more than a "tiny bit" of chain that I could pull out. That would imply my cable was a tiny bit loose. I have tightened it a bit. Rode around - mostly flat, without issues.

I was downshifting under load but I did stop pedaling for a second. Maybe I didn't stop pedaling long enough for the clutch to get from high to Normal (by the way a lot of people call the "N" on the shifter "neutral", but SA & Raleigh call it "Normal"). I've read the horrors of using the SA 3 speed hubs under load. Read you should never stand up & pedal. Here's a link to a 2000 user group conversation with Jobst Brandt:

Sturmey Archer 3-speed hubs (Jobst Brandt)

If I'm to believe all that I'll pretty much be limited to riding at walking speed on flat ground. The implication is that the clutch wears the pinion pins, allowing the dreaded "no gear" between High & Normal.

So, what does your collective wisdom say? What about the area between High & Normal? Why's it there? How do you avoid it? Has that ever happened to you, and if so, under what circumstances?

i cant really give a direct answer as i'm pretty new to this stuff also , but i have a feeling i'll be asking or wondering the same stuff in a few months ... i have a feeling the raleigh "sports" and a British "sports" car are very similar . stuff like syncro mesh transmitions and heat weren't available ...sometimes you have to anticipate a hill i guess ( even if its the first time on the pavement ?? ) . i have a feeling you will learn as i will learn how to drive this contraption . untill spring ill follow this post .. look at it like an old car , i guess . no power brakes , steering , seats , and a manual gear box . funny story , in the 80s i did a lot of things . one of those things was driving a 10 wheel dump truck at a gravel pit . we dumped in a gravity fed hopper up a short but steep hill . well , i start up the hill moving at speed in third gear . go to down shift up the hill and hell no . that transmition was having no part of any gear . no one told me it had no breaks also and back down the hill i went in reverse ..

Never happened to me. There are people on this thread with a lot more miles than me; I have 6 (sheesh, no 8 now...) three speeds and so far none of them have done this and I ride them pretty hard (mostly commuting but since I do that more than anything else it winds up being a lot of riding). But if the toggle chain isn't set right all bets are off!!

I set up a bike for a friend of mine and she ran into this problem. It took me a while to sort out that it was caused by the shifter, which was slightly bent and binding a little in 3rd gear so the cable was not running as loose as it should. So the hub would slip out of gear. Fixed easily enough by replacing the shifter.

@michaelz28- I get what you mean. I normally would never shift going up a hill, or if I did, very carefully. However this wasn't really a "hill". It was maybe a 10 foot section of a multiuser path leading from my street into the park. It was a rise, a very mild incline. I thought that with a SA 3 speed hub I could stop pedaling, shift, then keep going.

So, if I were in a too high gear going up a hill, and wanted to shift down, could I stop, put my feet on the ground, shift the lever then start up again? Like you could at a stop sign?

I've read not to "trust" the SA 3-speed 100%. Accd. to the Jobst Brandt user group I linked to above, he says that SA always blamed the rider, never fixing the problem. I'm not trying to start a debate, but just want a realistic, clear understanding to what I can and cannot do with this hub.

Before I bought the bike someone on here was teasing that I'll be like Miss Marple plootering around the village and having high tea. I'm no dawdling rider, but I'm not one who's hammering out 40 mile training rides up in the hills. So, do I need to save this bike for genteel riding? I was under the impression that the Brits used these utility bikes as real, functional transportation. I'm sure they had a few hills.
[MENTION=330095]Salubrious[/MENTION] - my original indicator pin had a real "shoulder" - the chain riveted onto a flat part, then that flat part widened to become the indicator pin and the transition was more evident than my current pin. I know for certain that in High the cable was very slack, I think slightly too slack, so I tightened a little. I'll pay attention. Also how much do I have to watch for initial cable stretch?

^^ hardly at all.

I shift going up hill all the time and never even think about it. Its not second or first you worry about- its third- that is the gear that you don't stand up for.

In the lower gears the hub is held in gear pretty tightly when you are pedaling- the force of pedaling helps. In third, its held in gear solely by spring action and that is why it can drop out if you push it too hard. Just don't stand up and you will never have a problem in third. I have a 22 on the hub and can make 25 mph pretty easily.

The bike will lead you to more genteel riding anyway, with its wide gearing and heavy weight.

The surprise neutral gear is a little dangerous, but I don't believe it causes somersaults. I've found it accidentally, and I haven't gotten hurt. Some time in the 70's or so, Columbia had SA make special versions of the SA that prevented neutral. I don't know how they did that. And SA's new three-speed hubs don't have it.

The way I adjust a 3-speed hub is I shift into each gear and make sure the cranks engage. Then I fish carefully for neutral between 2nd and 3rd and make sure the crank does not engage.

If you find neutral when your shifter is in 3rd, your cable is too tight. If you find it in 2nd, it's too loose.

Jobst Brandt was a character and sometimes an alarmist. Last I heard, he is still alive but suffered a bad brain injury and doesn't write any more. He may not ride any more, too. I miss him.

How exactly do you fish? Use shift lever or pull cable by hand? I assume with lever. So say I'm in Normal and I use shift lever to fish somewhere between normal and High, then I DONT want pedals to engage?

Anyway I know the cable was too loose.It was very loose in High and in Low, when I tried to pull more chain out, I could pull maybe 3/4 of a link. I believe you should be able to pull 1/3 link more when in low gear (in other words you don't want extreme tension while in low).

But details please about the fishing statement.

Its never occurred to me to look for neutral and there's not much use for it in any regard. I just make sure that the shift works right and the cable is near slack in 3rd. Make sure your fulcrum clip and pulley clip can't move on the frame. That'll have you pulling your hair out.

Yeah, I mean fish by carefully squeezing the lever out of third and towards second. While doing this motion very slowly, turn the crank back and forth in search of neutral. I never look at the indicator chain when I adjust a 3-speed. In fact, I can do it with my eyes closed. I do it by feel and sound. I should make a video, huh?

This thread has gotten busy lately, and my three-speeds are in Florida. I feel like buying or building one to have here.

He has strong opinions on SA three speed AW hubs. I've never seen or heard of anyone else with the same complaints that he had. He is a big guy and was a powerful rider -- perhaps his problems were not ones us mere mortals encounter.

@noglider - Tom, you know you want to do it - refurbish a three -speed. You have access to tools galore, and with your know,edge you could have some "old girl" purring along in no time! NYC would love you for it!:thumb:

Thanks for the explanation. I was able to find neutral by hand pulling on the chain. I'll try your way. If I start in 3rd, gently rotate wheels and slowly move shifters toward second and find "neutral" before all the way into second, then what? Does that mean the cable is too loose?

I tried various loose/tight cable tensions and was able to find "neutral" via shifter every time. Sometimes it occurred closer to 3rd & sometimes closer to 2nd depending on how tight or loose the cable was. I guess I'll set it the way SA said to do it, then go from there. I won't be shifting up hill any more.

A properly set up AW, that isn't worn, isn't likely to slip and when you are climbing hills the odds are you will have the bike in first gear where the likelihood of slippage is nil... slippage usually happens when you are shifting between normal (not neutral) and third gear when you are between gears.

I have experienced a little slipping when I was time trialling on a lightweight three speed road bike, had topped 50 kmh, and was still hammering... this was about all the hub could take but I was a much stronger rider than I am now and some frame flex was probably a contributing factor.

The new SA hubs have been redesigned so there is no dead spot between N and 3rd gear which is good for folks who might not have their transmission dialled in.

A little cable slack in third and the ability to pull just a little cable in first as well as the correct position of the indicator chain in N is where things need to be... if the wrong indicator spindle has been installed the indicator spindle will not show properly so then you need to set the hub with cable tension at 1 and 3.

Pawls do wear as does the clutch and this can contribute to misbehaviour even when everything else is set up perfectly.

It sounds harder than it is... do it a few hundred or a few thousand times and you can almost do it with your eyes closed and if you know what to listen for that can also tell you what is going on. :)

Seems like the only time I have to tear down and overhaul a 3 speed hub is when I teach classes on the subject... in the real world they rarely cause any issues.

I think the last time I had to crack open a defective hub was when adventurepdx's old 50's AW hub sheared the pin that holds the main gear and we ended up swapping the guts from another hub instead of rebuilding the old one.

Improperly set drive side bearings can also cause hair pulling grief but once adjusted smiles usually ensue.

Query for the group:

I'm currently working on a very nice condition '69 Raleigh Sprite (S-5 hub). Minus a few minor missing bits which I can easily order, the biggest problem I've got is that the chrome peeled off the left crank arm completely. Anyone out there have a spare left arm with decent chrome from a Sprite, Sports or some other like Raleigh they'd care to sell? I've found a few complete 3-speed cranksets on eBay, although I hate to replace the whole unit, as the chrome on the right side is just fine. And I've considered taking the arm in to a local chrome shop (still an option), although I have a feeling that'll be more expensive than buying a complete crank.

This isn't the first time I've noticed this on a late-60's/70's Raleigh. The chrome on the left arm of my Twenty is marginal and probably going to get rechromed one of these days. And a couple other Sports I've had pass thru the shop have had the left side in worse condition than the right. Were they chroming in different vats, or is this just the effect of lubricant fling from the drive side?

Big time agreement with that statement. I think the last time I field stripped an AW hub was somewhere around 1974. To the point that I'm probably going to tear one down just for the hell of it sometime in the near future, just to get the feeling back in my fingers again. Disassembling a S-A hub is the only activity that I used to do in my professional days that I haven't done since I got back into the shop again. And that's been ten years now.

Those hubs have got to be the absolute paragons of reliability.

@Velocivixen, I've restored several three speeds, though not as thoroughly as you've done yours. I don't like to do complete breakdowns. I do them piecemeal over time.

I love my Rudge, which has a 24T cog. I needed that when I lived in hilly Maplewood, NJ. I don't need it in Florida, where the bike lives now.

I also have a Twenty, which is currently unridable because I need to shave down the head tube to make the new headset work. I don't like the way it rides. I wonder if adjusting the reach to the handlebar will fix that.

There was also this ladies Robin Hood which I bought to flip. The buyer was 24 years old and had never seen a three speed before. When she first laid eyes on it, I think I saw her knees buckle. She was very happy with it. I had to replace the rear fender struts. I used a Wald unit for its low price and availability. This was not much an aesthetic job, but it came out looking OK anyway.

Also in Florida is my AMF Hercules, styled like a tailfinned car. I like the matching bag and seat and the chrome fenders. It needs some work. The twist grip shifter is attractive but works badly.

Back in 1981, I bought a used Twenty to renovate in the style of John S Allen's Twenty. Somehow, I managed to put drop bars on it. I built new wheels for it, with aluminum rims. The front had a QR hub. For the rear, I used a NOS S5 hub. I threw the bike away a year or so later, out of boredom. My super's kid retrieved it. No pictures of this bike, but you might find pictures of Allen's, which inspired me.

I've done a few, I think. The first was when I was a shop mechanic. I had a very large customer, the type who probably was too strong to commute on a three speed. I think he had worn his pawls, or maybe it was the clutch. He had a way of breaking things on his bike.

Another was on an Austrian bike. It had a Brampton hub. All the lubricant had turned to shellac. My daughter and I broke it down and scraped it off painstakingly with a scratch awl. To be honest, it didn't work amazingly well after we put it back together. Maybe better cleaning was needed. Interestingly, other than the hub, everything on the bike was metric.

Aha, here is John S Allen's Twenty. He brazed bosses to the frame and fork for mounting MAFAC brakes. I met him at the shop I was working at in 1980 in Cambridge, MA. He taught me a lot about SA hubs. Note in the old picture, the bike has Wonder lights.

This showed up on CL this morning. Not mine:

vintage women's raleigh bike

vintage women's raleigh bike - $120 < >
http://images.craigslist.org/00505_g...0z_600x450.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/00u0u_B...ul_600x450.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/00Y0Y_h...sM_600x450.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/00505_2...kv_600x450.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/00z0z_j...nB_600x450.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/00f0f_6...OT_600x450.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/00d0d_h...kS_600x450.jpg


http://images.craigslist.org/00505_g...h0z_50x50c.jpghttp://images.craigslist.org/00u0u_B...yul_50x50c.jpg
Vintage 3 speed women's raleigh bike. Everything in working order. Original Brooks saddle. Ride around the city this spring! I am getting rid of it because I am moving to the suburbs and there is no place to ride it there:(

Willing to trade for smaller frame mountain bike.