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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

dweenk 04-17-15 04:59 PM

5 Attachment(s)
A while back I started a thread named "For The Love of Austrian 3-Speeds" because I had bought a Sears/Styer 3-speed from around 1963-ish. The project was put on hold due to weather and other stuff, but I now have a very ride-able 3-speed like I had when I was in college.

I did the basic cleanup - worst rust removal, cleaning, lubing, adjusting, and a wheel replacement (issues with the original front rim). New tires though.

The dreaded "Neutral Instead of Normal" had to be overcome at the end, and the cables do not match - but this is an errand bike. The paint is faded/chipped/missing in spots. The decals are toast. Someone had put drop bars on it and tossed the original bars and stem. I scrounged through what I had in the Box O' Parts and came up with what you see. I have a Pletscher rack that I will soon install, and then I will call it done.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445732http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445733http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445736http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445735

gster 04-17-15 07:08 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 17726426)
So, what makes this strange is not that somebody is trying to sell a FUBARSports for $300 (about $250 too much), but the head badge, rims, and brakes on this bike. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445526 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445518http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445519http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445520http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445523 All original, according to the ad, except seat and grips. Original brushed on orange paint, I guess. Bars don't look typical to me and neither do the brake levers, but that doesn't mean they might not be. Original lack of fenders, lack of chain guard, lack of pump. "good condition". I'd hate to see bad.

Brakes, I have learned through the intertubes, are a very early dual pivot by GB. Either GB Synchrons or the Altenberger copy of them. The head badge, apparently, was used during the 60s and early 70s, but it was new to me and I don't recall seeing it in this thread on any of that era's Sports or Superbes. Probably an AW hub in the rear and a Dynohub in the front (without the original, or any, light). Appears to be 32/40 spokes but the rims aren't the typical Raleigh rims, seem to be narrower, and they don't show to be rusty, which is different from everything else on the bike. I'm not sure that the rims are 590 instead of 597, which were used on some Raleighs way back when.

So, if the brakes and rims are original, it can't be a Sports, can it? Frame looks small to be a 21" Sports but the ad says 54 cm. I doubt that.

If it's not a Sports, what might it be with that head badge, those rims, those brakes?

Or, maybe it's just a mucked up Frankenbike put together from odd parts.

Here's the Craigslist ad:VINTAGE RALEIGH ROAD BIKE

I'd pay $80.00-$100.00 (Canadian) tops.

gster 04-17-15 07:09 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 17729563)
A while back I started a thread named "For The Love of Austrian 3-Speeds" because I had bought a Sears/Styer 3-speed from around 1963-ish. The project was put on hold due to weather and other stuff, but I now have a very ride-able 3-speed like I had when I was in college.

I did the basic cleanup - worst rust removal, cleaning, lubing, adjusting, and a wheel replacement (issues with the original front rim). New tires though.

The dreaded "Neutral Instead of Normal" had to be overcome at the end, and the cables do not match - but this is an errand bike. The paint is faded/chipped/missing in spots. The decals are toast. Someone had put drop bars on it and tossed the original bars and stem. I scrounged through what I had in the Box O' Parts and came up with what you see. I have a Pletscher rack that I will soon install, and then I will call it done.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445732http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445733http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445736http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=445735

Never seen that thumb shift before

gster 04-17-15 07:13 PM


Originally Posted by forestine (Post 17726927)
I'm starting to think I should replace the pedals on my Glider. It has those kind of rounded ones. I was looking at NOS Raleigh pedals but they don't really seem worth it. Anyone know of new pedals that would look right?

MKS 3000!!!
https://threespeedmania.wordpress.co...intage-pedals/

ascherer 04-19-15 08:19 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Today, under the George Washington Bridge. 1974 and 1966.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=446112

michaelz28 04-19-15 09:27 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by ascherer (Post 17733990)
Today, under the George Washington Bridge. 1974 and 1966.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=446112

nice picture . another NYer ..my camaro upstairs ..shooting " american gangster "http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...nz/019_16A.jpg

ascherer 04-20-15 08:42 AM


Originally Posted by michaelz28 (Post 17734128)
nice picture . another NYer ..my camaro upstairs ..shooting " american gangster "http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...nz/019_16A.jpg

Sweet rides, about the same vintage! Having crossed the bridge upstairs zillions of times since the green Sports was new, I have to say I prefer the vibe down below.

Chesterton 04-20-15 09:09 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This weekend I picked up this 1970 Raleigh Sports. It is meant to be a backup everyday bike while my Pashley Roadster undergoes experimental open-hub surgery (the 5 speed is stuck in 1st gear). It is a 21" frame. A 23" would probably be a better fit for me but for a secondary bike I think it will be ok. It felt fine during the test ride.

Anybody know of any quirks of the 1970-era Sports that I should be aware of? One of the pedals is doing something weird where it tightens up as it is spun. I read something on Sheldon Brown's site about certain years of pedals not having any serviceable bearings, do you know anything about that?

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=446188

Salubrious 04-20-15 09:37 AM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 17726426)
So, what makes this strange is not that somebody is trying to sell a FUBARSports for $300 (about $250 too much), but the head badge, rims, and brakes on this bike. All original, according to the ad, except seat and grips. Original brushed on orange paint, I guess. Bars don't look typical to me and neither do the brake levers, but that doesn't mean they might not be. Original lack of fenders, lack of chain guard, lack of pump. "good condition". I'd hate to see bad.

[snip]Appears to be 32/40 spokes but the rims aren't the typical Raleigh rims, seem to be narrower, and they don't show to be rusty, which is different from everything else on the bike. I'm not sure that the rims are 590 instead of 597, which were used on some Raleighs way back when.

So, if the brakes and rims are original, it can't be a Sports, can it? Frame looks small to be a 21" Sports but the ad says 54 cm. I doubt that.

If it's not a Sports, what might it be with that head badge, those rims, those brakes?

Or, maybe it's just a mucked up Frankenbike put together from odd parts.

Here's the Craigslist ad:VINTAGE RALEIGH ROAD BIKE

The rims are likely from a Dunelt. The brakes are something used to replace the original steel calipers. Definately Frankenbike.


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17727042)
I have a question for you all. On one of these pages someone said that the 1940's - 1950's was a "golden era" for the Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub in regard to quality. Question: what was the "golden Era" for the GH6?

I acquired a 1952 GH6 attached to a wheel - don't want the wheel so much. The hub works and I've overhauled it. I also have a 1960 GH6 that works and I've overhauled it.

In in your experience with the GH6 is there a preference for year or decade?

I would like to build up a 3 speed with my 1960's? '70's (no one could narrow it down. No date) AW hub and GH6 Dynamo front. So which GH6? Is it six of one half a dozen of the other? Also would that be just way too much Sturmey Archer on one bike? Would it have to be on an English bike? Like would it be bad form if I built up an early '80's mixte with a 3 speed hub & dyno?

Seems to me master Shelden had something to say about that- mostly associated with the voltage output of the hub. I've got a 1951 Dynohub and a 1972 and they see to work about the same.

I've seen the occasional Raleigh mixte frame- often thought about three-speeding one for a friend of mine... It won't be too much SA on one bike :)

forestine 04-20-15 09:45 AM


Originally Posted by Chesterton (Post 17735054)
This weekend I picked up this 1970 Raleigh Sports. It is meant to be a backup everyday bike while my Pashley Roadster undergoes experimental open-hub surgery (the 5 speed is stuck in 1st gear). It is a 21" frame. A 23" would probably be a better fit for me but for a secondary bike I think it will be ok. It felt fine during the test ride.

Anybody know of any quirks of the 1970-era Sports that I should be aware of? One of the pedals is doing something weird where it tightens up as it is spun. I read something on Sheldon Brown's site about certain years of pedals not having any serviceable bearings, do you know anything about that?

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=446188

I was just researching this and found this site (seems to be down, I'll link to it just in case it returns since I swear I read it a couple days ago). This guy took the unserviceable pedals off and dripped quite a bit of oil into where he could see the bearings to give them a good soaking in it. It might be easier to get some cheap new pedals instead, though. When I took mine off the other day, it turned out they were beyond saving.

nelsonmilum 04-20-15 09:52 AM

Here's the google cached version in case the website is dead.

Reviving Old Raleigh 3-Speed Pedals On the Cheap

Velocivixen 04-20-15 10:26 AM

@Salubrious - thanks for responding to my question. Sounds good. The earlier GH6 has a dark "shell" where the two bolts are for attaching lights. The newer one has a light silver piece there & seems more sturdy.

Chesterton 04-20-15 11:40 AM


Originally Posted by forestine (Post 17735166)
I was just researching this and found this site (seems to be down, I'll link to it just in case it returns since I swear I read it a couple days ago). This guy took the unserviceable pedals off and dripped quite a bit of oil into where he could see the bearings to give them a good soaking in it. It might be easier to get some cheap new pedals instead, though. When I took mine off the other day, it turned out they were beyond saving.

That's a useful tip. I've done a bit more reading, and I've seen multiple references to Raleigh introducing the non-serviceable pedals in 1971 or 1972, so I may have squeaked by and might be able to adjust the bearing cones. The pedals are in pretty beat-up condition and if I keep the bike long term I might just replace them with a new set, but in the short term it would be good to just get the click out of the existing ones.

JohnDThompson 04-20-15 12:14 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17735300)
[MENTION=330095]The earlier GH6 has a dark "shell" where the two bolts are for attaching lights. The newer one has a light silver piece there & seems more sturdy.

Yes, my 1948 Dynohub (still works fine!) has a black Bakelite face where my newer Dynohubs have chromed steel. Mechanically and electrically, they appear nearly identical (the '48 hub has an oil cap while the others do not).

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/48-dynohub1.jpg

ronp6 04-20-15 03:54 PM

My latest English treasure is a 1950's Rudge Whitworth roadster framed 60 speed bike- 4 speed alloy Sturmey Archer FM, 3 ring Nervar crank, 5 speed freewheel. In the pictures I had already taken off the Campy derailleurs for servicing. The frame has no lugs and looks like it has suffered some geometry change but it was planned not like someone ran over it. The top tube looks to slant down, the bottom bracket looks higher and the lower part of the seat stay is welded to the chain stay and I thought they were all bolted on the bottom as well. The brakes are center pull Weinmann 999. The saddle is a B37 (lightweight B17) and everything that could be alloy has been changed out. It was a 1950's creation to race up Mount Washington in New Hampshire. The last section of the mountain is a 22% grade and pulling what is still likely a 35 pound bike up would take me all the gears I could get as well. I thought someone else might get a kick out of it. Hopefully the picture will show up.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/...psdzipey9q.jpg

Velocivixen 04-20-15 04:41 PM

@ronp6 - I've never seen gearing like that. Could you please explain how a freewheel attaches to a 4 speed hub? I presume it screws on like usual. Thanks.

PalmettoUpstate 04-20-15 05:43 PM


Originally Posted by michaelz28 (Post 17734128)
nice picture . another NYer ..my camaro upstairs ..shooting " american gangster "

See the T-Bird with white landau over burgundy? Went to the '64 World's Fair in N'Yawk in one of those - that exact color scheme - the top was vinyl - with me little brother and me Pappy. Cool time; everyone wanted to know if we were from Charleston. [I assume that was the only city in SC back in the day that the wannabe banksters knew existed in SC!]

ronp6 04-20-15 06:11 PM

Some and maybe all older Sturmey Archer hubs and Hercules before it was acquired had threads to put on the cog. I have had a few and thought about adding freewheels to them myself. I will service the bike in the next couple of weeks and when I pull it off I'll let you know more exactly.

JohnDThompson 04-20-15 06:18 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17736429)
@ronp6 - I've never seen gearing like that. Could you please explain how a freewheel attaches to a 4 speed hub? I presume it screws on like usual. Thanks.

Older (early 50s and earlier) Sturmey-Archer hubs had threaded drivers that could accept a freewheel. The problem with these is that you have to open the hub and remove the driver if you ever need to remove the cog or freewheel.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/threaded-driver.jpg

Velocivixen 04-20-15 10:43 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 17736670)
Older (early 50s and earlier) Sturmey-Archer hubs had threaded drivers that could accept a freewheel. The problem with these is that you have to open the hub and remove the driver if you ever need to remove the cog or freewheel.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/threaded-driver.jpg

Nice to see a photo. I understand exactly what you're saying now. Still an interesting setup with the 3 chain rings, 5 cogs & 4 internal gears. Was this type of setup common? Was it a passing fad? What type of bike would it have been marketed on?

Lenton58 04-21-15 12:50 AM

I LOVE this. The colour is marvellous! A very classy build!


Originally Posted by Narhay (Post 17715077)
I've put some more work into my 1978 Raleigh Superbe.
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/...psjc3hvckf.jpg


Narhay 04-21-15 08:55 AM


Originally Posted by Lenton58 (Post 17737317)
I LOVE this. The colour is marvellous! A very classy build!

Thank you. You can read more about the trials and tribulations here:
http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...h-superbe.html

desconhecido 04-21-15 09:46 AM


Originally Posted by Narhay (Post 17738019)
Thank you. You can read more about the trials and tribulations here:
http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...h-superbe.html

Yes, very nice.

Did you rebuild the front wheel with a CR18? I built a Dynohub 36 hole (3x both sides) wheel yesterday and it was an adventure in frustration. Tried to lace it in four steps, like normal, but the spokes kept falling out on the small flange side. So, built the large flange side and then went after the small flange side and with the spoke heads not wanting to stay in the flange holes and the spokes seeming to be too short it was trouble. I'm not sure what I did different the last try, but somehow it finally just worked. I must have been trying to lace the spokes to the wrong rim holes or something.

Narhay 04-21-15 09:49 AM

I did build the dynohub into a CR18 rim, as well as the rear wheel. The spoke holes were tough but as long as I kept tension on them they were ok. I reused the spokes so that might have saved me from some of the headaches you mention...although I did drop a number of spokes while building it.

ronp6 04-21-15 12:09 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17737217)
Nice to see a photo. I understand exactly what you're saying now. Still an interesting setup with the 3 chain rings, 5 cogs & 4 internal gears. Was this type of setup common? Was it a passing fad? What type of bike would it have been marketed on?

Harris Cyclery use to list a 3 cog freewheel years ago but I remember the gearing being quite high. Occasionally one will show up on ebay. I think the 60 speeds is ridiculous since so many speeds are duplicates. A freewheel with a lower gear range or two would have been very welcome on a few hills. It could also let you ride in the 1:1 gear (2 on a 3 speed) where the hub is most efficient more of the time. I have a 3 speed Sturmey Archer that takes a modern 9 speed cassette that I plan to use on folder. I don't think they are available anymore but new ones show up on ebay. I think it takes a 130 or 135 dropout spacing so it couldn't go on a Sports.

JohnDThompson 04-21-15 01:00 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 17738199)
Did you rebuild the front wheel with a CR18? I built a Dynohub 36 hole (3x both sides) wheel yesterday and it was an adventure in frustration. Tried to lace it in four steps, like normal, but the spokes kept falling out on the small flange side. So, built the large flange side and then went after the small flange side and with the spoke heads not wanting to stay in the flange holes and the spokes seeming to be too short it was trouble. I'm not sure what I did different the last try, but somehow it finally just worked. I must have been trying to lace the spokes to the wrong rim holes or something.

I shove a spoke nipple into the small flange slots to prevent the spokes from sliding out. And yes, you do have to take care to line things up properly with the large flange side to make it work. I built mine 2x on the large side and 3x on the small side, as that's how the wheel was laced from the factory. Did you run into any problems with 3x on the large side?

desconhecido 04-21-15 02:10 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 17738860)
I shove a spoke nipple into the small flange slots to prevent the spokes from sliding out. And yes, you do have to take care to line things up properly with the large flange side to make it work. I built mine 2x on the large side and 3x on the small side, as that's how the wheel was laced from the factory. Did you run into any problems with 3x on the large side?

I just checked my little scraps of paper (I have little scraps of paper up the wazoo) to make sure. The 36 hole Dynohub came from a Sprite with 27" wheels and was originally built 3X on both sides. My little scrap of paper indicates that I measured the original spokes when I unlaced the old wheel and that the short spokes were 289 mm. Just checked spocalc and with the dimensions that I measured (and which agree pretty well with the spocalc data base) it gives 288 mm for 3X and 273 for 2X. So, it was 3X and that's what I did and there was no problem with the crossings at the hub flange--it laced just like normal. I took a picture of it, but it's just a wheel. It's a Dynohub laced to a black 700C CR18 that is destined for a 56 Sports project. 700C wheels on a Sports probably with 32 mm tires to start. I'll post pictures of the whole thing when it gets road worthy.

Anyway, all my problems were on the small flange side. I took a more careful look at the small flange on the hub and it looks like the spoke seating holes are not equally spaced around the flange. The cutouts, each of which has a hole for a leading and trailing spoke, are equally spaced, but adjacent holes on adjacent keyhole are not. Have to study the wheel as it finally went together to see if I can figure out how the geometry works out.


Our most recent acquisition is the bike that we are calling the "Superbe Sports" and it has the traditional rims -- 32 front and 40 rear. The Dynohub on the front had 3X on the small and 2X on the large flange. So, that's what will be done when it goes back together.

Salubrious 04-21-15 02:25 PM

I've just done a radial spoke patterns on the alternator side on several wheels.

I've been thinking recently that a radial pattern is possible on the small side too. I'll be trying it next time I build one up...

michaelz28 04-21-15 06:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by ascherer (Post 17734961)
Sweet rides, about the same vintage! Having crossed the bridge upstairs zillions of times since the green Sports was new, I have to say I prefer the vibe down below.

i have a 74 myself also .. a 28 mile untouched ( good cleaning ) ..http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...psqdggvdw0.jpg

forestine 04-21-15 09:07 PM

Argh, my chain guard came loose and my pedal jammed under it and now it's all bent. Is there a more elegant way to get it into place than bending it and hitting it with stuff, or is that the Raleigh way? I think I got it so it's not rubbing on anything now, but it's still super close to the pedal and I'm nervous. How close is it supposed to be?


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