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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

rootboy 03-05-13 07:21 AM

You just caught everyone who've never heard of such a thing off guard, Ed. Including me. If it worked for you, what the heck.

SJX426 03-05-13 07:38 AM

I am surprized it worked for you. Would like to see pics. I believe the most challenging aspect of using tubulars is not mounting or dismounting, but repair! I used the Panaracer for a while. Ran out and purchased a small tube of the Mastic. Huge improvement in use. For those who only have used tape and would like to try glue, I would recommend the Mastic One. The best two of any are Mastic One and Continental, based on the reviews I have read that included set up time and adhesion.

clasher 03-05-13 08:53 AM

Let's see some pictures!

rootboy 03-05-13 09:00 AM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 15346382)
I am surprized it worked for you. Would like to see pics. I believe the most challenging aspect of using tubulars is not mounting or dismounting, but repair! I used the Panaracer for a while. Ran out and purchased a small tube of the Mastic. Huge improvement in use. For those who only have used tape and would like to try glue, I would recommend the Mastic One. The best two of any are Mastic One and Continental, based on the reviews I have read that included set up time and adhesion.

Can you give us a little more info, SJX? What was it about the Vittoria you like so much?
I've used Panaracer once or twice. Used to use Tubasti. Yikes. Also like the old, red Clement
but that stuff was kind of a mess unless you were VERY careful.

EhGiOeS 03-05-13 10:03 AM

Okay one time once. From about 1972 I was riding with a local club run by an ex 6 day racer. We did a century every Sunday rain or shine. I was riding a 1972Colnago Pantographfata a Custom built A model by uncle Albert a Jack Taylor Tour of Brittan a Jack Taylor Curve tube a Ernie Clemins Falcon a Tyne Side Criterium, and another custom bike by a local maker. To be cool in the club you had to ride pink Clement Criterium Seta Extras. In my opinion the fines tire ever made. As I said before I was working for a company that made adhesives for 3 M. So I got a roll of the first Velcro made. Hers the recipe. What I did was contact cement the "plush" to the rim cement the "hooks " to the tire. With no pressure in the tire it is very easy to adjust for straight, no glue mess. When the tire is inflated you have the mechanical adhesion of the Velcro plus 100 plus psi pressing it down. Its as solid as steel. ED

Chombi 03-05-13 11:00 AM

The idea of the convenience that Velcro mounted tubs will provide does sound very interesting, If you were successful with it for so many years, why not ride a set of tubs for a long distance and record the experience, then sell the idea to a big bicycle tire manufacturer? Nothing like recorded, on the road testing with very challenging conditions (Including long downhill runs with lots of twisties) will prove the viability of Velcro mounted tubs or other new alternatives on how to mount tubs on rims...
Not sure what market base it will be sold to as the possibility higher rolling resistance and added weight (and who knows if the Velcro layer might retain water during wet rides as it will act like a thin sponge even with 100+ PSI pressing on it) is counter intuitive to most people who ride tubs as it kinda kills the whole point of having tubular tires on a bike and makes just going with high performance clinchers a better alternative to avoid the whole gluing thing....

Chombi

gaucho777 03-05-13 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345766)
Please explain the humor.


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15345865)
Velcro-ing tubulars!!! :roflmao2: Ed, I'm glad you never had a problem. Beyond that, I'm just not sure where to begin



Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345899)
Please begin.



Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15345917)
Okay, I'll give this a go. I mean no offense. Maybe the hilarity is in the unexpected. First...



Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15346044)
You are of course correct and I'm know to be a terrible person. I should realize Randy's intuition trumps my 10 years experience. Why is it there are so many people on forums that know nothing about the subject. They just know they're right? Ed


You kept begging for an explanation about why something unusual struck me and others as funny, and I gave it, without trying to poke fun. Now all this talk about knowing what's right and so many people knowing nothing strikes me as defensive and/or looking for a fight. As I said from the start, I'm glad it worked for you. Personally, I'm sticking with glue.

RobbieTunes 03-05-13 07:29 PM

It would seem to me that the Velcro would work fine, with the added pressure holding the hooks to the loops.

However, it seems redundant. You glue velcro twice, once to the rim, once to the tire. You glue a tubular tire to the rim. Not sure I understand adding another layer of glue, a layer of hooks and a layer of loops.

Clinching tubulars avoid that altogether. Given the right chance, I hope they'll give tubeless a run for it's money.

Tubulars are addictive, though. I'm not sure why, but they're just cool.

My prediction is starting to come true, also. I'm starting to see Zipp "non-dimpled, non-firecrest" tubulars for lower and lower prices on CL, etc. If some carbon yup wants to buy an imagined 4 seconds/mile, who am I to argue? My ego can handle "non-dimpled, non-firecrest" wheels, I think.

SJX426 03-07-13 01:01 PM

Rootboy, it was the difference in viscosity. Much easier to spread and appeared to be thinner. The Panaracer came with a brush attached to the cap. Long strings of glue when removing the brush and difficult to spread. I put a pair of latex gloves on and use my finger with the Mastic One. Because of the ease of distribution of the glue and the ease of contolling the application, it went faster. I did a google on the best tubular tire glue and read a fairly detailed evaluation of the top 4 or so and the best bonds and performance was found to be the Mastic One and Conti.

Chombi 03-07-13 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 15356682)
Rootboy, it was the difference in viscosity. Much easier to spread and appeared to be thinner. The Panaracer came with a brush attached to the cap. Long strings of glue when removing the brush and difficult to spread. I put a pair of latex gloves on and use my finger with the Mastic One. Because of the ease of distribution of the glue and the ease of contolling the application, it went faster. I did a google on the best tubular tire glue and read a fairly detailed evaluation of the top 4 or so and the best bonds and performance was found to be the Mastic One and Conti.

+1 on Vittoria's Mastic!...Continental's great too for the same reasons....:thumb:
At least I have two glues to choose from now.:thumb:
BTW, I use my bare index finger to best control the application of the glues on my base tapes and rims.....
I know, I will most likely live a few days shorter than I could with the glue toxins getting into my finger:eek:, but heck!, my tire installations are really nice and clean!:rolleyes:

Chombi

RobbieTunes 03-07-13 02:33 PM


Originally Posted by RobbieTunes (Post 15349480)
My prediction is starting to come true, also. I'm starting to see Zipp "non-dimpled, non-firecrest" tubulars for lower and lower prices on CL, etc. If some carbon yup wants to buy an imagined 4 seconds/mile, who am I to argue? My ego can handle "non-dimpled, non-firecrest" wheels, I think.

I'm goin' to look at a pair of HED J2's for $99, with an 8-sp cassette.

CV-6 03-07-13 04:43 PM

Anyone gone from tape back to glue on a rim? i am trying to do that now. The tape left a residue that is proving difficult to remove. Trying to wire brush it just creates gooey little balls. Sandpaper is about the same. Goo gone does not faze it. My concern is the glue will not adhere properly to the rim with this film of goo. Ideas for removal? Thanks.

Chombi 03-07-13 05:02 PM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15357699)
Anyone gone from tape back to glue on a rim? i am trying to do that now. The tape left a residue that is proving difficult to remove. Trying to wire brush it just creates gooey little balls. Sandpaper is about the same. Goo gone does not faze it. My concern is the glue will not adhere properly to the rim with this film of goo. Ideas for removal? Thanks.

Something really strong, like maybe lacquer thinner?? Tempting to use Gasoline, but that is always a bad idea, safety-wise....just way to volatile....so forget that I even mentioned it!....
Did you try mineral spirits at all? I find it much stronger at getting glue off than even Goo Gone. I'd avoid sand paper if you can as it will take off aluminum material from the rim with the goo, and you don't really want to do that.

Chombi

rootboy 03-07-13 05:48 PM

I almost hate to recommend it but, I use MEK. Nasty stuff, but cuts through about anything.

RobbieTunes 03-07-13 05:56 PM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15357699)
Anyone gone from tape back to glue on a rim? i am trying to do that now. The tape left a residue that is proving difficult to remove. Trying to wire brush it just creates gooey little balls. Sandpaper is about the same. Goo gone does not faze it. My concern is the glue will not adhere properly to the rim with this film of goo. Ideas for removal? Thanks.

I'm doing that now on a set of HED's that once had tape. The tape is left on the rim in many spots. Nope, Goo Gone doesn't touch it. Mineral spirits are way too slow. I put a $5 wire brush on a drill and had one done in about 10 minutes. I used the paint stripper brush. You'll get covered in dust, and be careful if you're wearing a loose t-shirt. If it gets caught in the drill, you will lose skin until the t-shirt wraps around the bit enough to stop the drill. Do not ask me how I know this.

Now, I have lots of little bits of residue floating around inside my HED's. I have to figure out how to get them out, or live with the noise.

I've removed taped tires from rims before, and actually put them on other rims, using a very light amount of adhesive, right down the middle. I doubt anyone would recommend this, but it worked fine, and probably still does for whomever owns that bike.

Chombi 03-07-13 06:14 PM

Seems like tape is much harder to deal with if you want to clean them off rims, compared to glue. I had a feeling that was the case. That's why I never considered using tape. Anyway, most of the LBS's I asked around for tape when I was starting out with sewup ties two years ago didn't even know what I was talking about.

Chombi

CV-6 03-07-13 07:40 PM


Originally Posted by Chombi (Post 15357765)
Something really strong, like maybe lacquer thinner?? Tempting to use Gasoline, but that is always a bad idea, safety-wise....just way to volatile....so forget that I even mentioned it!....
Did you try mineral spirits at all? I find it much stronger at getting glue off than even Goo Gone. I'd avoid sand paper if you can as it will take off aluminum material from the rim with the goo, and you don't really want to do that.

Chombi

And lacquer thinner isn't volatile? Yup, sand paper removed some of the gold anodizing, so that is out. Supposed to be nice this weekend, maybe I can try some turpentine.


Originally Posted by rootboy (Post 15357998)
I almost hate to recommend it but, I use MEK. Nasty stuff, but cuts through about anything.

I won't play with that stuff.


Originally Posted by RobbieTunes (Post 15358034)
I'm doing that now on a set of HED's that once had tape. The tape is left on the rim in many spots. Nope, Goo Gone doesn't touch it. Mineral spirits are way too slow. I put a $5 wire brush on a drill and had one done in about 10 minutes. I used the paint stripper brush. You'll get covered in dust, and be careful if you're wearing a loose t-shirt. If it gets caught in the drill, you will lose skin until the t-shirt wraps around the bit enough to stop the drill. Do not ask me how I know this.

Now, I have lots of little bits of residue floating around inside my HED's. I have to figure out how to get them out, or live with the noise.

I've removed taped tires from rims before, and actually put them on other rims, using a very light amount of adhesive, right down the middle. I doubt anyone would recommend this, but it worked fine, and probably still does for whomever owns that bike.

The wire brush on the drill yielded the little sticky blobs I mentioned in the original post, so that does not work. Maybe if the residue were old and dried out, it might work. But I just removed the tires/tape in the last month. I guess if the residue is that tough, I may be worried about nothing. Might try the old spoon trick if I can find a spoon the boss will let me sacrifice. More when I have it. BTW, I know how you know about the T-shirt. :) Been there, done that, got the remains of the T-shirt.

Dawes-man 03-07-13 08:30 PM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15358428)
The wire brush on the drill yielded the little sticky blobs I mentioned in the original post, so that does not work. Maybe if the residue were old and dried out, it might work. But I just removed the tires/tape in the last month. I guess if the residue is that tough, I may be worried about nothing. Might try the old spoon trick if I can find a spoon the boss will let me sacrifice. More when I have it. BTW, I know how you know about the T-shirt. :) Been there, done that, got the remains of the T-shirt.

Have you tried WD40? I had the sticky-blobs-with-wire-brush problem just the other day. Tried parts cleaner and pure alcohol with no effect. With WD40 they wiped straight off.

Six jours 03-07-13 08:45 PM

Jasco paint stripping gel. Truly nasty stuff (gloves and goggles, for sure) but really does work. The last (and only) time I used tub tape the Jasco did the job after WD-40, Goof-Off, kerosene, and gasoline all failed.

CV-6 03-07-13 10:57 PM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 15358600)
Have you tried WD40? I had the sticky-blobs-with-wire-brush problem just the other day. Tried parts cleaner and pure alcohol with no effect. With WD40 they wiped straight off.

Before and after. While it does help remove the blobs, the wire brush still leaves a lot of residue on the rim. Probably the easiest solution is to go back to tape on this rim. I saw you use Miyata tape. Would you care to share your experience with it? Tape on the rim was Tufo Extreme. Thanks.


Originally Posted by Six jours (Post 15358675)
Jasco paint stripping gel. Truly nasty stuff (gloves and goggles, for sure) but really does work. The last (and only) time I used tub tape the Jasco did the job after WD-40, Goof-Off, kerosene, and gasoline all failed.

Rims are gold anodized. Jasco will likely remove the anodizing. Don't think I will go there.

Chombi 03-07-13 11:20 PM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15358428)
And lacquer thinner isn't volatile? Yup, sand paper removed some of the gold anodizing, so that is out. Supposed to be nice this weekend, maybe I can try some turpentine.



I won't play with that stuff.



The wire brush on the drill yielded the little sticky blobs I mentioned in the original post, so that does not work. Maybe if the residue were old and dried out, it might work. But I just removed the tires/tape in the last month. I guess if the residue is that tough, I may be worried about nothing. Might try the old spoon trick if I can find a spoon the boss will let me sacrifice. More when I have it. BTW, I know how you know about the T-shirt. :) Been there, done that, got the remains of the T-shirt.

Yes, Laquer thinner is volatile, and so are some kinds of mineral spirits, acetone, alcohol and many other substances, Heck, I betcha Goo Gone is flammable to some degree too as it might have some sort of alcohol base, but I believe they all have different degrees of volatility and explosiveness, Gasoline is designed to catch fire and explode violently within an engine. In terms of it's ranking to catching fire in an explosive way, I suspect that it ranks as high as you can imagine it could so, it would be the first thing I'd strike of my list of using for any other purpose than running my car. All the other substances I mentioned have some degree of expectation to be used in a construction or workshop environment that I believe can make them less risky to use......and that's my point. Whatever you use you always have to be careful and some substances like gasoline is just too volatile that it's not worth the risk....

Chombi

Six jours 03-07-13 11:35 PM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15359209)
Rims are gold anodized. Jasco will likely remove the anodizing. Don't think I will go there.

Actually, I used it on a pair of red anodized Fiammes without trouble. That's not a guarantee, of course...

gaucho777 03-07-13 11:51 PM

A couple thoughts. Maybe try freezing the rim (soaking in a tub of ice?) to help harden the glue? If all else fails, I've had a lot of success with Brasso in terms of cleaning up tubular glue. It works much, much better than mineral spirits. But there is a catch: They changed the formula for the U.S. version several years ago, and it now contains a very small amount of oxalic acid; so, that may be a no go on aluminum rims, but perhaps worth a small spot trial. I've only ever used glue, never tape.

P.s. FWIW, I have used the new formula Brasso on grey anodized rims without any issues. I think if you just use it to clean up (rather than soak) the rims and wipe it afterward, you won't have any problems.

Dawes-man 03-08-13 01:43 AM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15359209)
I saw you use Miyata tape. Would you care to share your experience with it? Tape on the rim was Tufo Extreme. Thanks.

Sure, as little as it is. I only took to tubulars around a year ago and since then have fitted 8 or 10 tyres using Miyata tape and removed 3. I have no experience of Tufo tape or glue, except I've watched my wife and the LBS owner use the latter.

Miyata tape is a doddle to put on. 4 of the tyres I've fitted have been to NOS rims while the others have been to 1950s Fiamme sprint rims, which I've cleaned up with a wire brush in an electric drill. The last one I needed to use WD40 to remove sticky blobs and smears followed by a wipe with pure alcohol.

To remove tyres fitted with the tape isn't easy and I have to use tyre levers to get the tyre to separate from the rim for around 8" along until I can get my fingers in to pull the rest of the tyre off, which also requires some muscle. I have no concerns about the tape not being strong enough.

The tape sticks mainly to the rim but removing it is simply a matter of going around the rim rolling it off with your thumb. This when you are glad you applied it to a squeaky clean rim.

blamester 03-08-13 05:18 AM

Hi
I had the same problem in reverse the tape was stuck
to the tyre.I used glue over the tape and it is fine, no bad reactio
and stuck good.Bye the way can you still get glue in a tub with
the brush attached to the lid.I found this was very efficent.

rootboy 03-08-13 05:28 AM


Originally Posted by CV-6 (Post 15359209)

Don't think I will go there.

Doesn't sound like you'll go anywhere folks are recommending.
Tubular glue is tough stuff. You can either use a strong solvent,
or a lot of elbow grease.

clasher 03-08-13 08:34 AM

Does acetone work? The stuff is non-toxic.

CV-6 03-08-13 09:07 AM


Originally Posted by rootboy (Post 15359770)
Doesn't sound like you'll go anywhere folks are recommending.
Tubular glue is tough stuff. You can either use a strong solvent,
or a lot of elbow grease.

You are partially correct. I don't want to go there if I don't have to. I was hoping someone had gone ahead and glued over the tape residue. Blamester seems to have done that with a minor difference. Six jours says Jasco did not harm his anodized rims so I may try that first.

I have done this before, but the tape did not leave the residue that this latest batch of Tufo tape left. If the Jasco does not work, I will try gluing over the residue. Will report back. Thanks for the help.

rootboy 03-08-13 10:04 AM

I wonder if heating it up with a heat gun will soften it, Lynn, making it easier to get off. I'll put in with you, I don't like having to work with high test solvents, but I do when I have to. Half face respirator and heavy nitrile gloves of course.

SJX426 03-08-13 01:10 PM

If GooGone is marginally effective, Acetone will work well. It flashes so fast it is challenging to use, but very effective. Use in with open space.


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