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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

MooneyBloke 03-28-23 10:05 PM

The problem I have with "not as good" is that the cyclohexane has nowhere to go but into softening the adjacent glue surface. I think if you wet a rim with a dry base coat with compatible adhesive (I really mean the SAME adhesive), and mount a tire with compatible glue on the tape, you'll still have plenty of boogers. The wet glue will fill the empty space in both dry surfaces, and the excess solvent in the wet glue will affect them rendering them sticky. I'm getting the feeling I need to play with a chunk of aluminum, some heavy duck cloth, and glue if I'm to get this thing resolved once and for all. I'm having a very hard time believing the wet glue application has inadequate effect on its neighbors.

DiabloScott 03-28-23 10:24 PM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22843698)
you'll still have plenty of boogers.

Buddy - just do your dry-wet method, let it cure for a couple days, and then evaluate. If you want more glue in there you can use the art syringe method.
There is no way you're going to get duplicable engineering accuracy on some coefficient of bondage without equally precise application techniques like temperature, glue volume, dry time, and other factors you won't have... and you don't need it. You need good enough - and then decide if you'd like a little more, and adjust your technique to suit.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6f0d5b7c89.jpg

79pmooney 03-28-23 10:33 PM

MooneyBloke, do one approach. Ride it. Now pull the tire off. Your first data point. Too easy to pull off? Go up a step. Very hard? Go down a step. It won't take many cycles to find a level that work for you. Just skip the criterium corners until you get there.

Gluing tires is like fiberglass boat building back when it was done entirely by hand. You could write a book detailing how to do it perfectly but I would never go off shore on that reader's first boat. But I have trusted my life many times to fiberglass whizzes with the skill, touch and who were barely educated.

1989Pre 03-29-23 05:20 AM

Thanks for both the answers and the questions, folks. I am subscribed to this thread. I still have a lot to learn, and this makes it easy. A shout-out to Positron400.
Haven't taken the Grubb out,yet, still waiting for warmer weather, but I am a gentle rider and the roads are good. I think I'll have good results. Haven't bought my spare, yet, to bring with me, anyway.

mosinglespeeder 03-29-23 08:54 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22843635)
The point is that there's a scale (I just made up) from 0 to 10 on how securely a tire is adhered to the rim, and 10 is the maximum possible. A 10 would hold the tire even on a folded wheel. A perfectly glued tire for most riding purposes is NOT a 10. More than 8 is probably too much, and less than 3 is not enough for anything besides limping home on a spare.

So I suggested that dry on dry is a 5 and wet on dry is a 6... you decide what your glue number is.
Then re-evaluate when you have to take it off.
If you used the wet tire glue-dry rim glue method (call it a 6) and you have to muscle off every inch of it when it's worn out... you can probably reduce to dry-dry=5. And if it comes off easier than you'd like, go up a number with another coat on the rim and some extra cure time.

It's possible that new wet glue will reactivate some of the old dried glue - it's a minor effect... the new glue just bonds better to whatever it touches.



Well no, but road worthy is also a scale. Dry on dry would be road worthy for a recreational century in less than extreme heat... maybe not so for descending French Cols in August at 80kph.


with all due respect, subjectively shooting numbers from the hip isn't really the index of measure we can rely on.

All I can say: I have looked at numerous ways to glue tubies over the year, and HAVE heard of the accidents, roll offs and problems of not just adhering to the tried and true practice of a TUBULAR specific glue, wet on wet surface.

Is it religion, no. Is it tradition, absolutely. Can it be natural selection, yes, I have seen it. Most are lucky enough to ride home and say 'don't do that again' and we chuckle. Many do it their way and that is fine, but when asking others for experience of others who have done this for years, it simply is what it is...that is just what I've/we have done and was taught. I humbly hope that helps and makes sense, and asking/thinking is EXACTLY what I did too, and came back to this method which is tried and true

DiabloScott 03-29-23 10:56 AM


Originally Posted by mosinglespeeder (Post 22844002)
with all due respect, subjectively shooting numbers from the hip isn't really the index of measure we can rely on.

Even if we could have some objective measure of how well the tire/rim are bonded together, you would STILL have to determine what value is good enough for you... and it won't be the same as what's good enough for somebody else.
YOU have to decide if you want a shear strength of 1 Pa or 1 MPa or 1 GPa, and you'd have to use some kind of subjective reason for choosing your target value, and you STILL wouldn't be able to verify that your glue job corresponded to the test standard.

So in reality, you'd still be relying on somebody's (one day, your own) subjective experience riding sew ups to tell you how much is good enough for you, your equipment, and your riding conditions...whether you describe that in terms of shear strength, my 0-10 scale, or the number of visible boogers.

Is a wet-dry install better than a dry-dry install? That is a reasonable question.
What is the ideal bonding value and how does one achieve that value? That is not a realistic question.

Positron400 03-29-23 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22844179)
Even if we could have some objective measure of how well the tire/rim are bonded together, you would STILL have to determine what value is good enough for you... and it won't be the same as what's good enough for somebody else.
YOU have to decide if you want a shear strength of 1 Pa or 1 MPa or 1 GPa, and you'd have to use some kind of subjective reason for choosing your target value, and you STILL wouldn't be able to verify that your glue job corresponded to the test standard.

So in reality, you'd still be relying on somebody's (one day, your own) subjective experience riding sew ups to tell you how much is good enough for you, your equipment, and your riding conditions...whether you describe that in terms of shear strength, my 0-10 scale, or the number of visible boogers.

Is a wet-dry install better than a dry-dry install? That is a reasonable question.
What is the ideal bonding value and how does one achieve that value? That is not a realistic question.

I am sure there can be some scientific values such as bonding force/removal force/bonding strength derived, if one was inclined to go that route. Even more so, i am 100 % confident the leading glue manufacturers (Conti, etc.) have had to do their own studies to have this product on the shelf and approved by the authorities, esp. if it is used by the pros. It's not like they would be sharing their results with us plebs, but still otherwise there would be WAAAAY too much liability.

squirtdad 03-29-23 11:18 AM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 22843665)
I think you're sounding a little careless to me. That's why I keep punching back. When it comes to gluing sew-up there's a lot of folk wisdom from elders, but damn little hard science and engineering. It drives me nucking futz. What I really want is a clear reason wet glue to dry is a less than ideal bond for the sorts of adhesives we are handling? It seems as if it should be, and I need an explainer.

it is really pretty simple. Tubular glue like Vittoria is like Contact Cement or rema tube patching cement which for proper adhesion need to dry first. if you have ever tried not waiting with either of those then you would understand The solvent that allows you to brush the cement on needs to "dry" to so as to not interfere with the bond.

the bond depends on both sides, so wet to dry will result in an inferior bond .....how inferior is an open question

mosinglespeeder 03-29-23 11:30 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22844179)

Is a wet-dry install better than a dry-dry install? That is a reasonable question.
.

good point....and dry to dry in my experience has been just to get me home after a flat

EVlove 03-29-23 01:59 PM

Quickly approaching... Most needlessly contentious topics

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f1d559933e.jpg

Case closed, as far as I'm concerned.

DiabloScott 03-29-23 02:06 PM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22844405)
Quickly approaching... Most needlessly contentious topics

Case closed, as far as I'm concerned.

I'd call that an 8. Plenty of safety factor for a manufacturer to get behind.

MooneyBloke 03-29-23 03:41 PM

Assuming this is the back of a can of Vitt Mastik One. My one tube (I'm standardized on Conti Aluminium, but I wound up with a tube of Vitt M1 in my kit) has the same warning language, but no application instructions. This looks to me like dryish/wettish (rim) to dryish (base tape). The main things are rim prep before base coat and tire prep before base tape coat. On the other hand, I just watched a video stipulating three heavy base coats prior to the mounting coat. All of my recent mounts are basically according to the Vitt can though I tend to leave less time for the base tape coat to dry. The real question is how is the bond compromised as time passes between the initial rim and base tape glues and the application right before mounting?

Classtime 03-30-23 06:10 AM

I performed the Continental video regimen in the beginning of my tubified riding. If you try that, don’t expect your friends to wait for you while you mount a spare — it an 11 for sure.

pastorbobnlnh 03-30-23 07:34 AM


Originally Posted by EVlove (Post 22844405)
Quickly approaching... Most needlessly contentious topics

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f1d559933e.jpg

Case closed, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't mean to be contrary nor difficult. But consider the debate about gluing procedures and techniques in the last 20+ posts. They are enough to scare-off many first-time tubular users simply because of the complexity and diversity of gluing tubulars.

I would argue that we want more tubular tire riders (for the simple reason of keeping good tires in the manufacturing pipeline). We don't want tubulars to disappear or become scarce, similar to the Schwinn sized 26" 597mm tires.

For this reason, first-time tubular users (and other riders put off by glue) should consider tape, verses glue. Watch this video.


5 minutes from clean rim to mounted tire, easy peasy, and from my experience, it really works.

Bobjackson 03-30-23 08:56 AM

Started gluing in the 70's.....first time I used tape never looked back. The time involved with glue does not make sense anymore.

DiabloScott 03-30-23 10:15 AM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22844972)
5 minutes from clean rim to mounted tire, easy peasy, and from my experience, it really works.

Hey PB - please rate your tape adhesion on the DiabloScott tubular glue job security scale.
I'm trying to develop this into something truly useful rather than just one more thing to argue about... sort of like Sheldon Brown's tire width/rim width chart.
I've got some graphics ideas that will make it easy to understand also.

CV-6 03-30-23 04:50 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 22845137)
Hey PB - please rate your tape adhesion on the DiabloScott tubular glue job security scale.
I'm trying to develop this into something truly useful rather than just one more thing to argue about... sort of like Sheldon Brown's tire width/rim width chart.
I've got some graphics ideas that will make it easy to understand also.

Not the person asked, but I tape my tires. First flat adhesion was probably a 9. I did not know to leave a small strip untaped and had a time getting it off the rim. Two other experiences and I would give it 7-8, Getting it started is the trick, then I run a Mafac tire iron under it to remove. Using Miyata rim tape. First flat, some tape stayed on the tire. Second and third, more tape stayed on tire. But I carry a small bit of tape and a knife to cut it.

pastorbobnlnh 03-30-23 04:52 PM

@DiabloScott I don't know if I'm good test subject or rater. I'm not an aggressive rider and currently my pancake flat, rather straight roads, rarely present a challenge to rolling a tubular. All I can say is in my 7-8 years of riding taped tubulars in the mountains of NH, and now for almost 2 years in GA, I've never had one come off while riding.

Can I call it at least a 7?

DiabloScott 03-30-23 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22845517)
@DiabloScott I don't know if I'm good test subject or rater. I'm not an aggressive rider and currently my pancake flat, rather straight roads, rarely present a challenge to rolling a tubular. All I can say is in my 7-8 years of riding taped tubulars in the mountains of NH, and now for almost 2 years in GA, I've never had one come off while riding.

Can I call it at least a 7?

The scale uses the "removing on purpose" difficulty. I would say a 7 is hard enough to remove that you feel confident and justified that you will almost certainly never roll a tire... and (if it were glue) maybe back off a smidge next time. That's usually what I aim for, but I do some gnarly switchback descents. I've never rolled a tire either, but I've blown a couple up (clinchers) from brake heat.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...becdf352b9.jpg

Classtime 03-30-23 10:03 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22844972)
I don't mean to be contrary nor difficult.

I would argue that we want more tubular tire riders…

…For this reason, first-time tubular users (and other riders put off by glue) should consider tape, verses glue..

We don’t need to go that far. How bout first-time users should consider glue because tape makes it much more expensive than clinchers.

pastorbobnlnh 03-31-23 06:30 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22845744)
We don’t need to go that far. How bout first-time users should consider glue because tape makes it much more expensive than clinchers.

Granted, this is correct when comparing one method of mounting tubulars verses the other. Tape is more expensive than mastic/glue, which in turn adds to the total costs of riding on tubulars.

But is it "much more expensive than clinchers"? Comparing tubular tires to clincher tires on a simple cost basis is similar to comparing the cost differences between--- let's say a Mercedes SUV and a Kia SUV (of the same size and weight).

Many factors go into the costs of the clincher tires which are purchased: Wired bead verses folding bead. Tubed verses tubeless. Latex tubes verses butyl tubes. Supple lightweight casing verses puncture protection, etc. As most of us are aware, some high-performance clinchers can be comparable in cost to similar performance tubulars. And--- to be fair--- Rally, Giro, and Yellow Jersey tubulars, can cost about the same as moderately priced clinchers.

Getting back to the tape cost vs. gluing cost:

I don't know how much glue is needed per rim and tire. @Classtime suggests maybe $2-4 +/- worth of glue by the time all the layers are added to two rims and two tires (if I'm wrong please correct and I'll update this post with accurate information).

The price of effetto mariposa tape (which I use) is approximately $10 +/- per wheel. For many first-time tubular riders, the extra expense combined with the simplicity and time saving of mounting with tape could be worth the extra cost.

top506 03-31-23 06:32 AM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22845902)
For many first-time tubular riders, the extra expense combined with the simplicity and time saving of mounting with tape could be worth the extra cost.

This.

Top

sbarner 03-31-23 06:44 AM

I have been riding sewups since 1973. These days not so much because I think they are a great technology--I don't--but because I have so many sewup rims and dealing with their foibles and overhead have become rote. I haven't used tape in decades, but completely understand why some people do, especially considering how much better modern tapes are than the ones I experimented with in the 1970s. I use Continental glue because it is one of the least expensive options when purchased by the can and it works very well while not embarrassing you when you get some on the sidewalls. There was no hiding your incompetence with the old Clement red glue: you wore that badge of shame. My protocol has been to 'reasonably' clean the rim, sand it if it's shiny, apply a medium thickness layer to the rim, apply the same layer to the basetape, wait a few minutes (varies depending on what I can find to putter with, but seldom longer than an hour), apply another layer to the rim, and then stretch the tire on. I leave it at least overnight to cure.

I have never rolled a tire. I also no longer try to see how fast I can take a turn. I feel a crash will ruin any level of fun and stay within my sweet spot of keeping it interesting yet not returning home as a passenger. Applying the tire removal rating scale, a few years ago I flatted and realized that I had a spare in my bag but no tire levers (sewups, so why would I need them?) I have a good, strong grip, but for the life of me I could not get that tire to come off the rim. Eventually another rider came along and graciously loaned me her tire levers to get the darned thing started. This sort of thing never happened in the days of Tubasti. I don't always have that much trouble getting the tire removal started, but it's a sign to me that my technique is working as well as I need it to.

While we're talking tubulars, after moaning for many years about the extinction of the Campionato del Mundo Seta, it is wonderful to have 27 mm sewups return to Capistrano.

EVlove 03-31-23 06:47 AM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 22845902)
Granted, this is correct when comparing one method of mounting tubulars verses the other. Tape is more expensive than mastic/glue, which in turn adds to the total costs of riding on tubulars.

But is it "much more expensive than clinchers"? Comparing tubular tires to clincher tires on a simple cost basis is similar to comparing the cost differences between--- let's say a Mercedes SUV and a Kia SUV (of the same size and weight).

Many factors go into the costs of the clincher tires which are purchased: Wired bead verses folding bead. Tubed verses tubeless. Latex tubes verses butyl tubes. Supple lightweight casing verses puncture protection, etc. As most of us are aware, some high-performance clinchers can be comparable in cost to similar performance tubulars. And--- to be fair--- Rally, Giro, and Yellow Jersey tubulars, can cost about the same as moderately priced clinchers.

Getting back to the tape cost vs. gluing cost:

I don't know how much glue is needed per rim and tire, so my guess is maybe $10 +/- worth by the time all the layers are added to two rims and two tires (this would be in what it costs to purchase glue today, but if I'm wrong about this guess, please correct and I'll update this post with accurate information).

The price of effetto mariposa tape (which I use) is approximately $10 +/- per wheel. For many first-time tubular riders, the extra expense combined with the simplicity and time saving of mounting with tape could be worth the extra cost.

Yeah I'd have to agree there, if you're in the US where glue can't be shipped by mail, it's expensive either way. Fewer and fewer places carrying glue, too. I shopped around a lot just recently and the best deal I could find was $26 shipped for a 250g can of Vittoria. Which is enough for, what, maybe six tires?

If the Challenge CX tires on the used Mavic wheels I bought hadn't been completely shot already, I might have experimented with plain old rubber contact cement (Pliobond). Not to ride on obviously, just to put away for a few months and then see how hard it is to get the tire off again. I suspect it's essentially the same stuff just with more bonding strength than we want, so would tend to tear the base tape off.

Classtime 03-31-23 07:42 AM

$23.44 shipped from CC today for a can of Mastic. I don't know how many tubulars I have installed with the can that is sitting on my shelf which is a little less than half full--maybe 7-8?

A clincher tube puncture can be repaired at negligible cost. I have never used tape and don't know how practical it is to remove the tape from the tire to get at the tube and repair a puncture, but I suspect the user needs a new roll of tape. If the user depends on sealant to repair all punctures, and either bins or sends to Tire Alert any tire that cannot be sealed, that requires additional cost.

Nice tubulars cost as much as nice clinchers--think Vittoria Corsa and RH.

I just think that a new user should do the C&V thing and perform due diligence. Suggesting that the glue learning curve is too steep and discourages tubular use is like suggesting DT shifting discourages cycling and new riders should go brifters or e-bike.

MooneyBloke 03-31-23 08:45 AM

I think one of the problems here is that what constitutes good gluing is somewhat context dependent. The most demanding users also have team mechanics, tire sponsors, and that puncture repair means a wheel swap from the follow car. If you're riding alone out there with just a spare under your seat and a pump or CO2 cartridge, and if you mean to milk all the value out of your $100+ tires, your notion of best glue job might be just a bit different. I do wonder if ex-pros and pros at home might want less tenacious glue jobs assuming they are still on sew-ups at all. Here's a fun video:

pastorbobnlnh 03-31-23 10:28 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 22845990)
$23.44 shipped from CC today for a can of Mastic. I don't know how many tubulars I have installed with the can that is sitting on my shelf which is a little less than half full--maybe 7-8?

...Suggesting that the glue learning curve is too steep and discourages tubular use....

I'll update my post to reflect a better cost for using glue. Would $1-2 per tire be a more accurate cost?

I'm not suggesting learning how to glue a tubular is too challenging for some riders. Just that taping a tubular is an appropriate alternative, and which a first-time tubular rider could find to be less complicated and less messy, even if there is an added expense.

I'm also not suggesting taping is superior to gluing or vice versa. Nor am I arguing against gluing. And finally, I'm not debating about the differences between clinchers, tubeless, and tubulars.

squirtdad 03-31-23 11:10 AM

I am facing glue or tape decision very soon (if I can get the rear wheel radial good, with out destroying the lateral, the disk and spoke eveness.... I just think patience grasshopper)
I have done both tape and gluing

My first tubies were Tufo and I used tufo tape...pretty simple. I did note when I removed those tires a) really hard to remove and b) tire was pretty messed up.
the hint for leaving a gap in the tape opposite the stem is well noted

has anyone used both the tufo and the effrotro mariposo tape? how did they compare at removal and tire condition afterward

At this point I am tending to gluing as the tires are FMB so I don't want goof them up if I have to swap a spare in. I could be over thinking (as is not unusual)

I think it is more important that we are riding Tubies, than how we glue :)

79pmooney 03-31-23 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by squirtdad (Post 22846261)
I am facing glue or tape decision very soon (if I can get the rear wheel radial good, with out destroying the lateral, the disk and spoke eveness.... I just think patience grasshopper)

...

Good think about tubbies - if you cannot get all the hump out of that radial, just pull the tubbie a little tighter over the hump portion. It will neck down. With practice you ought to be able to get the tread running perfect over a badly humped wheel. :) of :( Take your pick.

pastorbobnlnh 04-01-23 07:46 AM

@squirtdad I've used Tufo tape in the past, but I've not needed to demount the tires yet.

I do have experience demounting from an effetto mariposa taped tubular and did not find it difficult. I didn't leave a gap on the opposite side of the valve stem. I followed their video and mounted to a clean and old glue-free rim. Take a look at the technical details on their website and they address how their tape adheres to the rim and base tape.


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