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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

michaelz28 03-23-16 04:53 PM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18630281)
I still have this idea of building a super-light 3-speed with some hot-rod touches. That said, the big shifter probably does not fit with the super-light concept. Oh well, this will be a project for next winter, so I've got plenty of time to figure it out.

this 3 speed shifter is pretty hot rod ...my SA 3 speed schwinn stingray . [IMG] http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps55d42f78.jpg[/IMG]

gster 03-23-16 06:24 PM


Originally Posted by michaelz28 (Post 18631659)
this 3 speed shifter is pretty hot rod ...my SA 3 speed schwinn stingray . [IMG] http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps55d42f78.jpg[/IMG]

When we were kids this was known as a "Nut Buster" or a "Rupture Rod".......

Loose Chain 03-23-16 08:00 PM

Well, it can be ridden now. But though I have the headlamp temporary installed it all works good enough until I find the correct light bracket. I still am mulling over the saddle and my new aluminum rims are on their way. Will need to get some spokes, but in any case, it can be ridden as is while waiting to amass the parts for Phase II.

The Miller dynamo:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psu6zy9shx.jpg

The light set I already had in a junk box from an earlier project bike. The hub still will not go into first either, but, all is good in time I am sure or if not more money will make it so.

Sooo, on the spokes, one more question and I will leave y'all alone, for the CR18 rims, exactly what sizes spokes do I order (36 spoked wheels) and spoke washers?
J

DQRider 03-23-16 08:15 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 18631832)
When we were kids this was known as a "Nut Buster" or a "Rupture Rod".......

Awww, now why do ya wanna go and spoil it like that? I was thinking that was pretty cool. I remember when these were on NEW bikes, and every kid in my neighborhood wanted one.

Salubrious 03-23-16 09:06 PM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18632034)

The Miller dynamo:



The light set I already had in a junk box from an earlier project bike. The hub still will not go into first either, but, all is good in time I am sure or if not more money will make it so.

Sooo, on the spokes, one more question and I will leave y'all alone, for the CR18 rims, exactly what sizes spokes do I order (36 spoked wheels) and spoke washers?
J

The SA Dynahub can power that light set and is a lot easier to ride with than the generator is. Nice condition though!

I've never used washers on the CR18s and never had a problem. I've likely built about 12 wheels using them and DT Swiss spokes. It seems to me they are slightly shorter than the original spokes on account of the construction of the CR-18 itself.

gster 03-24-16 04:19 AM


Originally Posted by DQRider (Post 18632069)
Awww, now why do ya wanna go and spoil it like that? I was thinking that was pretty cool. I remember when these were on NEW bikes, and every kid in my neighborhood wanted one.

Didn't stop us from riding. They were/are cool.

markk900 03-24-16 05:21 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18632034)
Sooo, on the spokes, one more question and I will leave y'all alone, for the CR18 rims, exactly what sizes spokes do I order (36 spoked wheels) and spoke washers?

Best bet is to look up a spoke length calculator....some have the common rims and hubs already in their database. Assume you will use Cross-3, plug in your numbers and it will tell you what length to use. If you don't find your hub or rims in the database, I like this one Spoke length calculator for wheel building because it tells you how to measure the various dimensions of the hub, and you can get the ERD (Effective Rim Diameter) of the CR18 rims from their site. Use these numbers and the tool will calculate the spoke length for you. I used this on on my last set of wheels and they were nigh on perfect.

PS. I haven't used washers but that doesn't mean its right, it means I was lazy.

PPS. Is the shift wire completely taut when you are trying to get into 1st? Are you sure you aren't *in* first? The wire simply moves a cross shaped clutch from place to place inside the hub, and there should not be much that can get in the way of that....

markk900 03-24-16 07:18 AM

@gster: you brought me back to my youth - I (now) remember when we used to say things like "don't get a rupture"... 😀

Kuupola 03-24-16 08:16 AM

6 Attachment(s)
So does this count?
It's got an English 3 speed hub, AW, even if the bike might not quite be English :) At least it's very fast, geared at 40-18 for 45, 60 and 80 gear inches. Not so much in the snow, unfortunately it just keeps snowing and snowing :(
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=511305http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=511306http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=511307

Loose Chain 03-24-16 06:35 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18632515)
Best bet is to look up a spoke length calculator....some have the common rims and hubs already in their database. Assume you will use Cross-3, plug in your numbers and it will tell you what length to use. If you don't find your hub or rims in the database, I like this one Spoke length calculator for wheel building because it tells you how to measure the various dimensions of the hub, and you can get the ERD (Effective Rim Diameter) of the CR18 rims from their site. Use these numbers and the tool will calculate the spoke length for you. I used this on on my last set of wheels and they were nigh on perfect.

PS. I haven't used washers but that doesn't mean its right, it means I was lazy.

PPS. Is the shift wire completely taut when you are trying to get into 1st? Are you sure you aren't *in* first? The wire simply moves a cross shaped clutch from place to place inside the hub, and there should not be much that can get in the way of that....

Thank you, that is useful info. I will try the calculator, though I would think these bikes all have very similar dimensions for the hubs front and rear. But my bike is a 36/36, the one I have for my wife (or niece) is a 32/40.



I am sorry but to ask more questions unfortunately:

1. Spoke washers, uh, like I see no room, especially on the front hub, to put any washers that the washers would not be over ridden by the crossing spoke?

2. The new CR18 rims, 650A are much more narrow than the rims on the bike. I had expected they might be somewhat more narrow but this is considerable. What is the collective wisdom here?

Thanks.
J

JohnDThompson 03-24-16 07:48 PM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18634489)
1. Spoke washers, uh, like I see no room, especially on the front hub, to put any washers that the washers would not be over ridden by the crossing spoke?

Not sure what your concern is here. The washers go between the spoke head and the hub flange, to compensate for the thinness of the steel hub flange versus the thicker aluminum flange the spokes were designed to work with.


2. The new CR18 rims, 650A are much more narrow than the rims on the bike. I had expected they might be somewhat more narrow but this is considerable. What is the collective wisdom here?
Yes, the 590mm ERD 590 CR-18 rims are much narrower than the OEM rims, but I have had no problem using ETRTO 38-590 tires on CR-18 rims.

Loose Chain 03-24-16 08:18 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 18634667)
Not sure what your concern is here. The washers go between the spoke head and the hub flange, to compensate for the thinness of the steel hub flange versus the thicker aluminum flange the spokes were designed to work with.



Yes, the 590mm ERD 590 CR-18 rims are much narrower than the OEM rims, but I have had no problem using ETRTO 38-590 tires on CR-18 rims.

Why do we prefer the 22mm outside width CR18 vs this with a 20mm inside width for English 3 speeds?

https://www.suncomponents.com/produc...y/classic-l20/

And on the spokes, here is what I mean. I see the brass washers on several spoke sites and they do not look like they would fit here:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ps0w9yij78.jpg

JohnDThompson 03-25-16 03:16 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18634702)
Why do we prefer the 22mm outside width CR18 vs this with a 20mm inside width for English 3 speeds?

https://www.suncomponents.com/produc...y/classic-l20/

Is the 590mm L20 available in anything other than 36 hole drilling? The CR-18 is available in 32, 36 and 40 hole versions, and a variety of finishes including a polished finish similar to the OEM chromed rims.


And on the spokes, here is what I mean. I see the brass washers on several spoke sites and they do not look like they would fit here:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ps0w9yij78.jpg
I'm not sure. I've only built SA rear hubs and Dynohubs using the washers.

Salubrious 03-25-16 10:00 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18634702)

And on the spokes, here is what I mean. I see the brass washers on several spoke sites and they do not look like they would fit here:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ps0w9yij78.jpg

The washers go on the spoke nipples not the hub.

curbtender 03-25-16 11:30 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 18630356)
For removing grips, I prefer water or something slimy like soapy water. You can spray Fantastik or something similar. This stuff dries a lot faster than WD40.

You can attach dynamo wire with silicon glue. Secure it temporarily with zip ties until the glue dries. This way, you can put the wire on the inside of the fork and make it nearly invisible.

Alcohol works best. And if the grips are a little loose when putting them back on, hair spray. It dries sticky to hold them on. It also will rehydrate easy to remove the next time with water.

markk900 03-25-16 02:11 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18635867)
The washers go on the spoke nipples not the hub.

Are you sure about that - I believe they go under the head of the spokes at the hub end - after all they are there to make up for the extra space today's spokes have for fitting to thicker flanges. Of course, I don't know for sure as I don't use spoke washers, but I cannot image why you would need them under the nipples....

JohnDThompson 03-25-16 02:20 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18635867)
The washers go on the spoke nipples not the hub.


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18636500)
Are you sure about that - I believe they go under the head of the spokes at the hub end - after all they are there to make up for the extra space today's spokes have for fitting to thicker flanges.

Nipple washers go between the nipple and the rim, and are used on rims that lack ferruled spoke holes. Spoke washers go under the head of the spoke and are used to either compensate for a thin hub flange or an oversize spoke hole in the hub.

Salubrious 03-25-16 04:40 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18636500)
Are you sure about that - I believe they go under the head of the spokes at the hub end - after all they are there to make up for the extra space today's spokes have for fitting to thicker flanges. Of course, I don't know for sure as I don't use spoke washers, but I cannot image why you would need them under the nipples....

I've never needed them, but anytime I've taken apart an old wheel (to rescue the hub) the only place I've ever seen them is on the rim. But markk900 is likely right.

markk900 03-25-16 04:59 PM

Looks like we were both right - different washers for different purposes. I haven't used them at either end, but do know that when taking apart some old rusted italian wheels I did find some oval washers under the nipples....

Loose Chain 03-25-16 06:23 PM

DT Swiss Proline Spoke Head Washers, Box of 1000 - for 1.8 to 2.0 Spokes

This is what I thought you guys were telling me I needed to get. Thus my question, I see how these would work on the rear SA hub but on the front hub I am not so sure they would work?

The Sun CR18 wheels have a ferrule.

What are those large saddle satchels I see in many photos/

Is there a replacement seat post (alloy)?

Is there a replacement steering stem with greater offset?

Handlebars that are appropriate in alloy with more forward sweep?

Yes, I am looking, all over the web but being new to English 3 speeds this is all very confusing. Woe upon me :(.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psy74qnzz1.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...pstr17fzqx.jpg

J

DQRider 03-25-16 07:06 PM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18636934)
DT Swiss Proline Spoke Head Washers, Box of 1000 - for 1.8 to 2.0 Spokes

This is what I thought you guys were telling me I needed to get. Thus my question, I see how these would work on the rear SA hub but on the front hub I am not so sure they would work?

The Sun CR18 wheels have a ferrule.

What are those large saddle satchels I see in many photos/

Is there a replacement seat post (alloy)?

Is there a replacement steering stem with greater offset?

Handlebars that are appropriate in alloy with more forward sweep?

Yes, I am looking, all over the web but being new to English 3 speeds this is all very confusing. Woe upon me :(.

J

There's no reason for woe, Joe!:D

This is one of those things that have a long, gradual learning curve. Just as the bikes themselves are suited to slow, steady progress; so are most of us who love them. So we gather the wisdom and lore of those who went before us, sometimes by actual face-to-face conversation (!) - then acquire the special tools and the skills to use them, and we spend long, winter nights in shed or shop learning by doing. If you are patient and persistent enough, perhaps Saint Sheldon will smile down upon you when you wheel that Sturmey-Archer steel out into the Spring sunshine for your first test ride.

At least, that's what I read on the internets somewhere... :p

JohnDThompson 03-26-16 07:27 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18636934)
DT Swiss Proline Spoke Head Washers, Box of 1000 - for 1.8 to 2.0 Spokes

This is what I thought you guys were telling me I needed to get. Thus my question, I see how these would work on the rear SA hub but on the front hub I am not so sure they would work?

That's what I've used on my SA rears and front Dynohubs. I haven't tried them with the plain front hub, but if you need them for the rear anyway, why not go ahead and buy them and try it out. Be sure to report back, for future reference.

Loose Chain 03-26-16 06:39 PM

Today, I had opportunity to ride a 23 inch Sports. Yes, I adjusted the seat and bars. My current 21 inch Sports feels completely different. The 21 is taught yet stable and the 23 felt sort of mushy and complacent. I was also nearly bolt upright on the 23 inch frame and even with the bars/stem pushed way down I just could not get myself comfortable. I was about to buy the 23 and still may but for somebody, >me<, who is still a somewhat (mildly) aggressive rider and in decent physical fitness (swim, bike, run) I am just not liking sitting so upright. That said, I have dropped the saddle a wee bit on my 21 after fiddling with the bike and it is very comfortable save for one thing, I could use a longer stem.

Anyway, my point being, I was surprised at how different the two bikes felt, and I admit, I am not an expert on Raleigh 3 speeds. But I felt a huge difference. The 23 just felt huge under me, the 21 feel right. And I have no saddle time in either so it is not that I am just used to the smaller frame 21 inch Sports.

I did see in a catalog that Raleigh recommended the 21 for 5'6" and under and the 23 for upward of that. I suspect they had a more leisurely riding style in mind sitting straight up on their British posteriors. And despite having an 86cm cycling inseam (PBH with bare feet) I felt a little bit crowded by the top tube. I think my Surly CC with its low top tube height has me spoiled in that regard :).

I am a swimmer and a runner, cycling is just something I do when I am to beat up for anything but cycling ;). Or is it the other way around, hmmmm.

BigChief 03-26-16 07:54 PM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18636934)
DT Swiss Proline Spoke Head Washers, Box of 1000 - for 1.8 to 2.0 Spokes

This is what I thought you guys were telling me I needed to get. Thus my question, I see how these would work on the rear SA hub but on the front hub I am not so sure they would work?

The Sun CR18 wheels have a ferrule.

What are those large saddle satchels I see in many photos/

Is there a replacement seat post (alloy)?

Is there a replacement steering stem with greater offset?

Handlebars that are appropriate in alloy with more forward sweep?

Yes, I am looking, all over the web but being new to English 3 speeds this is all very confusing. Woe upon me :(.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psy74qnzz1.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...pstr17fzqx.jpg

J

A thing to remember is that the handlebars on these older 3 speeds are 15/16" not 1". Now any 22.2 stem will fit the forks, but they will not fit your current bars without a shim. So, it would make sense to replace both the stem and bars at the same time. Those 15/16 Northroads look to be in great shape...another desirable part you have there. Personally, I would never consider replacing the seatpost with an alloy one. Battling stuck alloy posts are one of the things us 3 speeders don't have to deal with.

Velocivixen 03-26-16 08:08 PM

Are there any vintage 3-speeds that a "sportier"/ different ride than Raleigh's Sports model? I know they made racing and geared bikes that might likely have different riding characteristics. Or are their more nimble frames all geared?


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