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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

Six jours 11-22-12 11:29 AM

When someone finds a $22 tire with which he is satisfied, I usually tell him to stay away from the $75+ tires. I've known several people who's lives were ruined when they discovered how much they enjoyed $200 worth of bicycle tires - "I can't ride cheap tires now that I know what I'm missing, and I can't afford to wear out expensive tires. Guess I'll take up jogging." :p

Peugeotlover 11-22-12 01:52 PM

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...aix-26594.html

On the forum (for this link) a member lists the bike teams and the various tires the pros used for the 2012 Paris-Roubaix Bicycle Race.

It is interesting to read the tire pressures that were used- much lower then one might expect.

[Nobody was running Servizio Corse ;)]

iab 11-22-12 06:37 PM

^^^

That seems about right for pressure. On my 27mm tubulars I run about 80 front/90 rear. But i'm 185. Those guys are 140/150.

63_dorinte 11-22-12 06:50 PM

I came back to tubulars this year after swearing them off around 1989. It was mostly a "period correct" thing for one bike, now it has spread :eek: though only to older (pre-1990) bikes.

Back in the 1980s I thought I was getting "cheap" tires that cost ~$30-40, all Wolber or Clement, don't remember which models. Also don't remember having any quality issues with them.

The first tires I got this year, Challenge Criterium, were awfully lumpy, just unrideable. They are now carried as spares since they do at least hold air. I have had better luck with the older Vittoria Formula Uno and Nuovo Pro, and Wolber Team. Are there any new manufacture tires that are at least consistent? I don't mind paying for good tires, if what I can expect to get is actually good. Any comments on the Continental Competition?

Dawes-man 11-22-12 08:24 PM

After using cheap tubulars for a couple of years I was persuaded (was it by RoadFan?? Thank you, whoever it was!) to try some better quality ones.

I'd tried Vittoria Rally (lumpy around the valve and hard to get on the rim straight), Soyo Pro-fessional (started separating from the backing tape and the sidewall frayed after a month or so) and Gommitalia Champions (not bad... until the back one developed a blister that touched the chain stay as the wheel went round after maybe 6 months of use) and decided to get some Veloflex Arenbergs. I would have got their Roubaix but Wiggle in the UK (the cheapest way to get them here in Japan- 3 for the price of 2, even after shipping - yes! $150 for 1 in Japan, $293 for 3 from Wiggle) only had the Arenbergs. I also wanted 25mm.

The first thing I noticed, when I put a couple on rims to stretch them, was how much neater the construction was - they just oozed quality in comparison with what I was used to. Then, weeks later when I fitted one, how easy it was to get it straight onto the rim. It was almost as if I couldn't get it on crooked even if I tried, it seemed to just naturally want to sit straight. In fact, it took me a few minutes to realise that the checking side-against-side I was so used to doing was unnecessary. No bulge at the valve, either.

This is probably sacrilege but I fitted just one to the back of my Hetchins to replace the burst Gommitalia... in a hurry and all that - but even at 8bar it feels far more pliant/absorbent of shocks than the others. It's just more comfortable, although that could be partly due to the 25 mm width against the 22mm that I'm used to. I can't speak to how it handles as I still have the Gommitalia on the front but I expect it will be better due to its rounder shape.

Putting air in is easier. Something I've found with the Vittoria, Soyo and Gommitalia valves is that they stick shut, with the Vittorias being worst. Every time I put air in them, I have to put all my weight on the pump, and even bounce up and down sometimes, before the valves will open and allow air to pass. The Veloflex doesn't do this.

My only small complaint is how quickly the tyre loses air. The Gommitalia needs air adding once a week, or 10 days, but the Veloflex needs air almost every day, certainly every other day. I wonder if this is normal? Would the Roubaix be any better? I say it's only a small complaint as I've quickly got used to putting in air more often. It's already part of the routine.

To sum up, I can confidently say that I will NEVER buy another cheap tubular.

Peugeotlover 11-22-12 09:17 PM


Originally Posted by 63_dorinte (Post 14975457)
I came back to tubulars this year. Any comments on the Continental Competition?


In the link in post #602, above, three of the racing teams listed Continental Competition as their tire of chose. Click the link.

gomango 11-23-12 01:21 PM

Veloflex Roubaix alert.

I've been watching for these since iab's recommendation.

Just noticed that Westernbikeworks had them for 25% off today if the order totaled over $250.

I just order three and it looks like they are going to run me less than $80 per tire.

Not too shabby.

http://www.westernbikeworks.com/prod...ular-road-tire

http://www.westernbikeworks.com/prod...0/vfrbx1-1.jpg


Oh, they also had a great price on the Veloflex Master 23 clincher.

I order another pair for under $37 per tire.

That's a lot of very nice tire for the money.

Marezz 02-05-13 08:35 PM

Hey guys, Im looking for a budget tubulars, not many models to choose here: Vittoria Rally ~31$, Schwalbe Montello ~34$, Tufo S33 Pro ~34$, Ritchey Race slick ~38$, Continental Giro ~38$. Has anyone used these tires maybe? Which one would be a best choice?

smontanaro 02-05-13 08:42 PM

I've only had one ride on mine so far, but the Schwalbe Milano seems to fit in that category. Priced in the $30-$40 range. I also have the Tufos on my Masi and like them. They don't look right on a vintage bike imho - all black. The Milanos at least have tan sidewalls.

1 Lugnut 02-05-13 11:03 PM


Originally Posted by Marezz (Post 15241671)
Hey guys, Im looking for a budget tubulars, not many models to choose here: Vittoria Rally ~31$, Schwalbe Montello ~34$, Tufo S33 Pro ~34$, Ritchey Race slick ~38$, Continental Giro ~38$. Has anyone used these tires maybe? Which one would be a best choice?

Yellow Jersey - 3 for $50 / Pretty decent tubular at a great price. Don't know much about shipping to Serbia though...?

Chombi 02-06-13 01:57 AM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 14975603)
........
My only small complaint is how quickly the tyre loses air. The Gommitalia needs air adding once a week, or 10 days, but the Veloflex needs air almost every day, certainly every other day. I wonder if this is normal? Would the Roubaix be any better? I say it's only a small complaint as I've quickly got used to putting in air more often. It's already part of the routine........

Yes, Veloflex tubs on one of my wheelset seem to lose the most air per day than all of my other other tires. I have to pump up the Veloflex Criteriums pretty much every day. I guess it's pretty normal for Veloflexs tubs....

Chombi

Marezz 02-06-13 04:46 AM


Originally Posted by 1 Lugnut (Post 15242114)
Yellow Jersey - 3 for $50 / Pretty decent tubular at a great price. Don't know much about shipping to Serbia though...?

Wow, that's a great price! What about the quality? I'm not sure they ship to Serbia though, and even if they do, I don't know if it would pass the customs without taxes etc... Also, we don't have PayPal in Serbia so I'm quite limited with the paying method :(

@Everyone; Anyone used those tubulars I mentioned in my previous post? Your experience? Tire performance?

EDIT: Oh and how would above listed tubulars perform on a 40C+ in the summer? Last time I rode bike with my friends it was a longer ride around 130km, on the open so we were always under the sun :D Would the tubulars and the glue hold their ground on such rides?

sced 02-06-13 06:24 AM

Good deal on Giros at PBK

http://www.probikekit.com/us/tyres-t...road-tyre.html

I've also used the Yellow Jersey and Ralleys, and have had the best luck with the Giros.

madscrambler 02-13-13 03:09 PM

Easy to find glue
 
I have recently tried Contact Cement (DAP) AKA rubber cement to glue my tubular tires. Don't laugh many times I have gone to LBS and found they are out! Just road around Clear Lake CA (65 miles) with a set of wheels glued this way. I still buy tubes of glue to carry while riding to repair a flat.

gaucho777 02-13-13 03:13 PM

That's a really bad idea. Tires will stay on even with no glue, just not very well. Just because you made if around Clear Lake doesn't mean you aren't asking to roll a tire. I see you are in Berkeley. You can get tubular glue at Mike's Bikes. Most of the time Mike's is more expensive that Missing Link, but for whatever reason Mike's price on tubular glue is better. They ordered some for me last time they were out.

It's very hard to keep upright once you roll a tire, and you may just slide out under a car.

P.s. I also suspect that rubber cement is more prone to change in viscosity due to heat (for instance, from rims on a long, winding descent).

Bianchigirll 02-13-13 03:35 PM


Originally Posted by Marezz (Post 15242467)
Wow, that's a great price! What about the quality? I'm not sure they ship to Serbia though, and even if they do, I don't know if it would pass the customs without taxes etc... Also, we don't have PayPal in Serbia so I'm quite limited with the paying method :(

@Everyone; Anyone used those tubulars I mentioned in my previous post? Your experience? Tire performance?

EDIT: Oh and how would above listed tubulars perform on a 40C+ in the summer? Last time I rode bike with my friends it was a longer ride around 130km, on the open so we were always under the sun :D Would the tubulars and the glue hold their ground on such rides?


I should know what 40c is but I think it is right around 100F? Usually unless your storing you tubulars in the car on hot days or heavy breaking on long steep downhills, the glue getting soft isn't an issue.

I am not sure if Yellow Jersey ships to Serbia, I am actually suprised you can't find lower cost tires.

noglider 02-13-13 04:14 PM


Originally Posted by Bianchigirll (Post 15270260)
I should know what 40c is but I think it is right around 100F?

Ask the google.

gaucho777 02-13-13 04:45 PM

Or just remember F = (9/5 x C) +32 and C = 5/9 (F-32). The "32" part should be easy to remember since 32-degrees is the freezing point.

Bianchigirll 02-13-13 04:50 PM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 15270431)

AH according to NOAA it is 104 so I was darn close.
http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15270553)
Or just remember F = 9/5 (C+32) and C = 5/9 (F-32). The "32" part should be easy to remember since 32-degrees is the freezing point.

You would think after 2 months of flying in So West Asia I would know that. But after the first week I didn't care 120+ is hot it doesn really matter if it is 118 or 121. I just do it the easy way Cx2+32 -somewhere between 2 and 10 depending on how hot or cold it is.

gaucho777 02-13-13 04:56 PM


Originally Posted by Bianchigirll (Post 15270583)
AH according to NOAA it is 104 so I was darn close.
http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm



You would think after 2 months of flying in So West Asia I would know that. But after the first week I didn't care 120+ is hot it doesn really matter if it is 118 or 121. I just do it the easy way Cx2+32 -somewhere between 2 and 10 depending on how hot or cold it is.

Actually, I didn't remember my formula correctly! :o I had to go back and edit/correct the formula. 40c = 104F. Guess it's not so easy to remember. Like Tom says, ask the google. ;)

Six jours 02-13-13 08:53 PM


Originally Posted by madscrambler (Post 15270131)
I still buy tubes of glue to carry while riding to repair a flat.

You've already been spanked for the contact cement idea so I'll take you to task for the rest: Most tubular glues take 12-24 hours to cure completely. While wet, glue is essentially a lubricant, which is an even worse idea than contact cement.

Short version: add a layer of glue to your spare and let it dry completely. Then when you need it on the road, just install it "dry". The dried glue on the tire will adhere (a little bit) to the dried glue on the rim, making it a little bit better than nothing, and a whole hell of a lot better than wet glue.

Six jours 02-13-13 08:55 PM

Having said that, BTW, I'll take some of it back: I have no idea whether contact cement is a good idea here, because I've never tried it and don't know anyone who has. I do know that some contact cements can provide a pretty impressive bond, so maybe it's actually a good idea. Whether it works for this exact application, though, I just can't say.

madscrambler 02-14-13 05:43 PM

Thanks for the response to my suggestion on the contact cement I used to mount my tubulars. I went to Dap Weldwood web site and reviewed their Tech doc: http://www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030202.pdf. It made me much more comfortable with my use of this adhesive in this application. It's "service Temp" is something like -20 to 150 degrees! That should be a safe temp range for even very brisk and long breaking descents. It is resistant to chemicals, solvents and moisture bonding fabric and metal. I will be testing it's use this year.

caloso 02-14-13 06:02 PM

I'm all for saving some dough using non-cycling specific products (such as as Mechanix gloves and Pyramix safety glasses), but if there's any application where I'll pay the bike-specific premium, it's tubular glue.

http://img.artscyclery.com/product/79100-1.jpg

The price of failure is just too high for me.

Six jours 02-14-13 10:50 PM

Back when I was trying to go as fast as possible in the mountains, I often found that my rims would end up too hot to touch. That's more than 150 degrees, I am sure.

But I also remember when FasTak was first being used. Plenty of folks predicted fatal results, and ended up being wrong. So maybe contact cement will be the next Big Thing, if there are any Big Things left in the world of tubulars. I personally am in Caloso's camp: I'm happy to let someone else do the beta testing WRT tubular glue. If you live, I hope you'll provide a full report.

Road Fan 02-16-13 04:29 PM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 14975603)
After using cheap tubulars for a couple of years I was persuaded (was it by RoadFan?? Thank you, whoever it was!) to try some better quality ones.

....

The first thing I noticed, when I put a couple on rims to stretch them, was how much neater the construction was - they just oozed quality in comparison with what I was used to. Then, weeks later when I fitted one, how easy it was to get it straight onto the rim. It was almost as if I couldn't get it on crooked even if I tried, it seemed to just naturally want to sit straight. In fact, it took me a few minutes to realise that the checking side-against-side I was so used to doing was unnecessary. No bulge at the valve, either.

This is probably sacrilege but I fitted just one to the back of my Hetchins to replace the burst Gommitalia... in a hurry and all that - but even at 8bar it feels far more pliant/absorbent of shocks than the others. It's just more comfortable, although that could be partly due to the 25 mm width against the 22mm that I'm used to. I can't speak to how it handles as I still have the Gommitalia on the front but I expect it will be better due to its rounder shape.

...

My only small complaint is how quickly the tyre loses air. The Gommitalia needs air adding once a week, or 10 days, but the Veloflex needs air almost every day, certainly every other day. I wonder if this is normal? Would the Roubaix be any better? I say it's only a small complaint as I've quickly got used to putting in air more often. It's already part of the routine.

To sum up, I can confidently say that I will NEVER buy another cheap tubular.

Dawes, I've scribbled a lot about sew-ups here over the years. I'm glad you saw some benefit from it!

If you're losing air every day and you've tested for punctures (water bath), then your tires most likely have latex tubes rather than butyl rubber tubes. Losing air by the next day is just what latex does.

I'm riding less on tubulars the past few warm months. Trek 610 has old Conti 3000's (pretty supple, 28 mm goodness), Terraferma has 650b Hetres, and my Mondonico has 27 mm Challenge Paris-Roubaix tubulars. And I'm trying to ride the Terraferma more to build acclimation and sort out fitting issues.

When I went to the Challenges on that bike I took off some Servizio Corse. I liked those tires, but I like the Challenges a lot better. I'm sure some of it is simply down to air volume, but I also experienced easier installation with less messing around to get the tires to sit right on the rim. I'll still use up the cheap tires some day, but I certainly prefer the Challenges on the road.

Road Fan 02-16-13 04:42 PM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15270617)
Actually, I didn't remember my formula correctly! :o I had to go back and edit/correct the formula. 40c = 104F. Guess it's not so easy to remember. Like Tom says, ask the google. ;)

Correct formula is F=C*(9/5)+32, but guestimates can often be good enough. But I agree, 40C = 104F.

If we're talking about safety of glue when rim temps are elevated due to weather and aggressive riding, I would not take chances with overheating the glue that holds your tires in place. I'd say if the glue company gives you a temp limit, observe it with maybe a 20 F minimum margin. You don't know how heating might be localized and you don't know if the glue melts at the spec temperature or if it softens progressively as you approach the spec temperature. You also don't know how long it needs to be at temp before negative effects kick in, nor how fast your wheel might cool off if it does go overtemp and you stop to cool it down.

Finally, if you think you're using the glue in-spec, how good is your temperature detection? If you're guessing, you're just guessing. If you have a thermocouple with an accurate digital meter, AND you got it down in contact with glue that is between the tire and the rim, you might have it pretty close. Otherwise there is error and you should consider if the error is in a direction that helps you or could hurt you. Another reason for not using glue that might become overheated and hence over softened.

I believe that one can ride a tubular with zero glue and get home in one piece (I am evidence), but if you can't take it easy in such situations, it's not safe.

I'd also think about that tire makers who sell glue have probably tested for compatibility between solvent in the glue and other rubber products in the tire, such as cover strip glue, rubber that impregnates the casing, or ... well, isn't this enough to worry about?

Road Fan 02-16-13 04:54 PM


Originally Posted by madscrambler (Post 15270131)
I have recently tried Contact Cement (DAP) AKA rubber cement to glue my tubular tires. Don't laugh many times I have gone to LBS and found they are out! Just road around Clear Lake CA (65 miles) with a set of wheels glued this way. I still buy tubes of glue to carry while riding to repair a flat.

Contact and rubber are not the same AFAIK. Contact cement puts down a layer of neoprene and rubber cement puts down a layer of rubber.

Dawes-man 02-18-13 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 15281516)
Dawes, I've scribbled a lot about sew-ups here over the years. I'm glad you saw some benefit from it!

If you're losing air every day and you've tested for punctures (water bath), then your tires most likely have latex tubes rather than butyl rubber tubes. Losing air by the next day is just what latex does.

<snip>

I'll still use up the cheap tires some day, but I certainly prefer the Challenges on the road.

Yes, I figured it was to do with the tube material. I haven't checked for punctures but I've subsequently fitted another Veloflex Arenberg to the front and the air loss is identical. I read somewhere that the lighter tube material does lose air so I guess the latex is lighter.

Does the Challenge keep air? I don't think they are available here in Japan, or the UK which is where I got the Veloflex.

smontanaro 02-18-13 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 15241695)
I also have the Tufos on my Masi and like them.

I think I am going to retract that statement. After riding Dairyland Dare, I noticed the valve stem on the front wheel was canted off at an angle. Not thinking much of it, I reseated and reglued the tire. I did a bit more riding, but not much on this bike. A couple days ago I noticed the valve stem was off at an angle again. I pulled the tire. Hmmm... came off a bit too easily. I glued it up again. Went on a bit too easily as well. This morning I took the Masi out. Midway through the ride I stopped and took a look. Tipped over again. My conclusion is that this one tire is a bit too large. It's likely that no amount of gluing is going to keep the tire from shifting on the rim.

So, of the first two sets of tubulars I purchased (Conti Gatorskins and Tufo S33something), one tire in each pair hasn't lived up to what I expected from it. My next inexpensive tires are the Schwalbe Milanos on my Medici. I'll have to buy something to replace the Tufos on my Masi. I guess I'll move up-market a bit.

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