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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

harpon 02-18-13 05:04 PM

Tubular tips?
THROW THEM IN THE TRASH
Save yourself the road rash

RobbieTunes 02-18-13 05:09 PM

Sorry to hear that, Skip. I've had good success with that same tire, the S 33 Pro. Heck, I even had success taping the C S 33 Pro to tubular rims (and they're made for clinchers). I just picked up some S3 Lites (4) and another set of tubular clinchers (C Jets) for my TT bike's backup wheels.

I could use a spare, so if you want to unload it, just drop me a line.
http://cdn.velospace.org/files/YFoil006[1].jpg

http://cdn.velospace.org/files/bb017[1].jpg

Road Fan 02-18-13 05:31 PM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 15287090)
Yes, I figured it was to do with the tube material. I haven't checked for punctures but I've subsequently fitted another Veloflex Arenberg to the front and the air loss is identical. I read somewhere that the lighter tube material does lose air so I guess the latex is lighter.

Does the Challenge keep air? I don't think they are available here in Japan, or the UK which is where I got the Veloflex.

It's not the weight, though thin butyls lose air faster than thick butyls. It's that latex rubber is different chemically from butyl rubber. We need a chemist.

rootboy 02-18-13 05:44 PM

All rubber is semi-permeable. Just ask ..

oh nevermind.

ftwelder 02-18-13 05:56 PM

Great thread, I have eight bikes on tubular tires. When I get a bike with tubular tires I discard tires with dried side walls or rips and sometimes re-glue the base tape. I find some older tires to be pretty good if they were good tires to begin with. Tubulars seem to require a bit of work but have an amazing ride.

RobbieTunes 02-18-13 06:27 PM

+1

3 bikes on tubulars, including two of my most modern.
1 bike on tubular clinchers.
1 backup set of wheels on tubular clinchers.

I'm starting to grasp the concept.

If the local triathletes continue to dump their higher-end tubulars, I will likely end up with more.
An Ironman running Zipps is not out of the realm of possibilities.

blamester 02-18-13 06:42 PM

Hi
Just got some new wheels and when I removed the front
tyre for inspection and truing I noticed that those e tape is stuck to the tyre and the rim is clean
Now I am wondering will I get a good bond with glue or should
use tape again on this tyre. Or how can I remove the tape from the tyre with out wrecking it? If the tape has set will it react with glue?

Bianchigirll 02-18-13 06:51 PM

Is this your first ever experience with tubulars? What do you mean the rim is clean? There is some type of glue tape on the tire your not looking at the 'tape' applied at the factory to cover the lacing right?

Any pics? I never used the tape stuff always glue


OH uh lets see I have 7 and half sorting tubulars, one is too big and will have to go to CL or the bay. 3 set of spare wheels but I am down to 7 spare tires. I better order some more from YJ.

smontanaro 02-18-13 06:57 PM


Originally Posted by RobbieTunes (Post 15289142)
1 bike on tubular clinchers.
1 backup set of wheels on tubular clinchers.

Why exactly use tubular clinchers? I can see from this page: http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/tiretypes.php what they are. It's not clear to me what the advantages are though. If you have clincher rims, why not just run clinchers? Can you run these on any 700c clincher rim?

S

Bianchigirll 02-18-13 07:12 PM

The Clinchulars allow you to run higher pressure. They are also argualble easier to fix a falt in a race than a clincher. You coulc also have some really nice training clincher wheels that you would put the clinchulars on for racing.

Clemment actually had these bak in the '80s

blamester 02-18-13 07:13 PM

Hi
Many yrs since I last used tubs but I have been
looking for a while for the right wheels. I have fond memories
of riding tubs.
The issue with these is the when I removed the tyre which was on there good the tape came away from the rim and stayed on the tyre. O
The other way round would be no big deal I could easily clean of the rim and start fresh, but what about I am asking is has anyone used one type of glue on top of another with good results. The tape is glue after all. Will I get a bad reaction and end up losing the tyre?

RobbieTunes 02-18-13 09:32 PM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 15289246)
Why exactly use tubular clinchers? I can see from this page: http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/tiretypes.php what they are. It's not clear to me what the advantages are though. If you have clincher rims, why not just run clinchers? Can you run these on any 700c clincher rim?

S

1-I'm getting a lot better wear out of the tubular clinchers. A lot.
I'm tired of riding on ProRace eggshells; the tubular clinchers seem sturdier, too.

2-Like BG said, you can run higher pressure. I run mine at 130. At 105, they seemed hard.
They seem to "round out" at higher pressure.

3-They are a cinch to change. You pull them off, period. No tubes. You put them on, period, seat the bead and done.

4-They are lighter than many clincher/tube combos. Not all.

The only drawbacks, for me:
a-You may have to use valve extenders, depending on the wheel type.
b-You have to carry a spare tubular clincher, or a spare clincher AND a tube.

I let a wrench at an LBS try a set of mine. He's hooked. He ended up buying me a new set.
He could get the Tufo's cheaper than he could buy others with his employee discount.

Dawes-man 02-21-13 07:02 PM


Originally Posted by blamester (Post 15289295)
The issue with these is the when I removed the tyre which was on there good the tape came away from the rim and stayed on the tyre. O
The other way round would be no big deal I could easily clean of the rim and start fresh, but what about I am asking is has anyone used one type of glue on top of another with good results. The tape is glue after all. Will I get a bad reaction and end up losing the tyre?

That's odd. I've only ever used tape (Miyata TTP-1) and it's never stuck to the tyre when I've removed it, always the rim. If the tape was still sticky, and depending where I'd be using the bike, I'd be tempted to use the tyre as it is. Pottering around town, yes, but going touring with fast corners, no.

As to your question, I have no idea as it would depend on what kind of glue was in the tape and what kind in the cement and whether they were compatible. I guess the only way to find out would be to try it. If you can't get the tyre off easily by hand when the glue sets it would probably be okay. Depending on intended use, again.

A question to ask, though, is if the tyre is really worth the bother. One in the Vittoria Rally price range? I don't think so.

Grand Bois 02-22-13 07:58 AM

The Tufo tape always sticks to my Tufo tires when I remove them. I can put them back on the same rims or move them to others.

CV-6 03-04-13 11:41 AM

Just got some Challenge Strada tubulars from Ribble...$120 shipped. Currently on some rims for stretching and mild seasoning. Initial impression...very well made. Mounted easily and straight. Three days and no noticeable loss in pressure. Of course the real test is how they ride and stand up. Debating on whether to tape or glue. Looking forward to the ride.

Chombi 03-04-13 06:36 PM

Finally got to glue on the Veloflex Criterium tires I scored a few months ago on to my Fiamme Ergal wheelset last night. Thing I noticed when I put them on rims to stretch out when I got them was that they seem to be harder to get on the rims compared to my other tubs from other manufacturers because of the stiffer base tape area on the tire. Even after stretching out for some time on the rims, the tires were still quite hard to stretch over the rims when I glued them. Hardest ones to mount so far of the different brands of tubs I already have. At least they mounted very straight on the rims, with just some minor adjustments to get them perfect.
I used Vittoria's "Mastik" glue this time in lieu the usual Continental glue I've used on all my other tubular tires.. Seems to be a bit more (runny) when you first put it on the base tape, but as long as you spread it immediately, it's pretty easy to control. Maybe a bit easier than Continental glue, so I might give it a try again the next time I glue on another set of tires..
Just my two cents on two brands of tub stuff that I tried for the first time, so if you ever get Veloflex tires for your wheelset(s), be sure to be ready for a bit of a fight getting them on and Vittoria's Mastik gets an OK from me!:thumb:

Chombi

rootboy 03-04-13 08:49 PM

Good review Chombi. Thx.

Dawes-man 03-04-13 08:56 PM


Originally Posted by rootboy (Post 15345170)
Good review Chombi. Thx.

Indeed!

I would add that I've had no such problems with Veloflex Arenbergs. And I always use Miyata tape, which is dead easy and very leisurely to use. I think I would panic with glue and get it all over the place, too.

EhGiOeS 03-04-13 10:35 PM

Total Tubular Heresy
 
In the early "70's" the company I worked for made adhesives for 3 M. Velcro was new. I got a big roll as a sample. Contact cemented the "plush"
to the rim and the "hooks" to pink Clement Criterium Seta Extra tires. Never had a problem. After they had been on for a while it was though to break
the bond. You had to get a tire "iron" between the tire and rim to keep from separating the base tape. Im not riding sew-ups right now but I
have about twenty of them and a big roll of Velcro. For what its worth. Ed

Dawes-man 03-04-13 10:41 PM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345578)
In the early "70's" the company I worked for made adhesives for 3 M. Velcro was new. I got a big roll as a sample. Contact cemented the "push"
to the rim and the "hooks" to pink Clement Criterium Seta Extra tires. Never had a problem. After they had been on for a while it was though to break
the bond. You had to get a tire "iron" between the tire and rim to keep from separating the base tape. Im not riding sew-ups right now but I
have about twenty of them and a big roll of Velcro. For what its worth. Ed

That's worth a really good laugh. Thank you! I might try that...

EhGiOeS 03-04-13 11:45 PM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 15345598)
That's worth a really good laugh. Thank you! I might try that...

Please explain the humor. I'm kind of dense, as I am constantly reminded of on the forum. Ed No good ever goes unpunished

gaucho777 03-05-13 12:41 AM

Velcro-ing tubulars!!! :roflmao2: Ed, I'm glad you never had a problem. Beyond that, I'm just not sure where to begin

EhGiOeS 03-05-13 01:04 AM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15345865)
Velcro-ing tubulars!!! :roflmao2: Ed, I'm glad you never had a problem. Beyond that, I'm just not sure where to begin

Please begin. I road them for years + 40 degrees. The Velcro bond is much stronger than any glue. Clean no glue mess easy to adjust. I realize if you are an expert you know instinctively what's right. No reason to try things . Ed

gaucho777 03-05-13 01:21 AM

Okay, I'll give this a go. I mean no offense. Maybe the hilarity is in the unexpected. First, intuitively, it doesn't seem as safe. You say it's stronger than glue, but the idea of having adhesive-backed velcro is to be able to attach and re-attach the velcro. If the glue on the back of the velcro were designed to be stronger than the velcro itself, than it wouldn't work as intended. It can be difficult enough to get a tire onto a rim without the velcro in the way, so it seems like it would be a very tight fit with the added thickness of the velcro (maybe helps keep the tire on the wheel) and would be difficult to install without moving the velcro off center. IMHO, some things are best left to tradition and tried-and-true techniques, and I believe gluing tubulars is one such example.

P.s. Also, I would also assume that it would negatively affect the ride quality since some of the road feel is dampened by the velcro. Might even make the bike feel sluggish? Also, one of the main advantages of tubulars is the weight, but this is reduced by the added weight of the velcro (I know, not much, but it's there.) Lastly, in order to start a race, your bike needs to pass an inspection; velcro'd tires would not pass an inspection.

Chombi 03-05-13 01:50 AM

I think Velco could work as it can be very strong as people already have proven when they, in a Velcro suit, jumped on to a wall and stuck on it, but work only as good as the adhesive under the Velcro strip material, which in my experience could vary from really sticky to very temporary/quite weak, depending on the brand and type of Velcro you use. There are also different grades of Velcro hook and loop design that varies from light duty ones to "industrial grade/stregnth " Velcro that really grabs very strong to each other. Another problem is, you will be introducing another source of flex or squish between the rim and the tire which equals to lost energy, and most likely mcuh more rolling resistance, so I think a tub wheelset using Velcro will never perform as good as one with using glue.
I also agree with Randy that mounting a tire might actually be much harder to do because of the thickness of the Velcro strips.
Other than maybe "tubular" clinchers, I don't think they have found anything else that might possibly come close to the performance of glued on tubular tires yer.

Chombi

EhGiOeS 03-05-13 02:01 AM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 15345917)
Okay, I'll give this a go. I mean no offense. Maybe the hilarity is in the unexpected. First, intuitively, it doesn't seem as safe. You say it's stronger than glue, but the idea of having adhesive-backed velcro is to be able to attach and re-attach the velcro. If the glue on the back of the velcro were designed to be stronger than the velcro itself, than it wouldn't work as intended. It can be difficult enough to get a tire onto a rim without the velcro in the way, so it seems like it would be a very tight fit with the added thickness of the velcro (maybe helps keep the tire on the wheel) and would be difficult to install without moving the velcro off center. IMHO, some things are best left to tradition and tried-and-true techniques, and I believe gluing tubulars is one such example.

P.s. Also, I would also assume that it would negatively affect the ride quality since some of the road feel is dampened by the velcro. Might even make the bike feel sluggish? Also, one of the main advantages of tubulars is the weight, but this is reduced by the added weight of the velcro (I know, not much, but it's there.) Lastly, in order to start a race, your bike needs to pass an inspection; velcro'd tires would not pass an inspection.

Intuitively I did mention contact cement. What does the adhesive backing have to do with attaching and reattaching The adhesive holds the Velcro in place. The compressed thickness of the Velcro is probably around 2 mm. The increase in weight less than 10 grams. So you know intuitively that my empirical experience of some 10 years was all wrong. Its great to be gifted with knowing what right or wrong instinctively with no evidence or personal experience Ed

Dawes-man 03-05-13 02:28 AM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345766)
Please explain the humor. I'm kind of dense, as I am constantly reminded of on the forum. Ed No good ever goes unpunished

Remember that I'm coming from a different background to yours, once in which the use of Velcro has been confined to attaching things to the dash panel of my motorcycle (ashtray, coin holder) and to tighten cuffs of motorcycle jackets and gloves. Your unusual use made me laugh as it was incongruous with my experience of Velcro. Do you follow that?

Dawes-man 03-05-13 02:31 AM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345962)
So you know intuitively that my empirical experience of some 10 years was all wrong. Its great to be gifted with knowing what right or wrong instinctively with no evidence or personal experience Ed

Sarcasm? I think that's a very poor response to the obvious effort made by gaucho777 to lay out his concerns.

EhGiOeS 03-05-13 03:44 AM


Originally Posted by Dawes-man (Post 15345990)
Sarcasm? I think that's a very poor response to the obvious effort made by gaucho777 to lay out his concerns.

You are of course correct and I'm know to be a terrible person. I should realize Randy's intuition trumps my 10 years experience. Why is it there are so many people on forums that know nothing about the subject. They just know they're right? Ed

Road Fan 03-05-13 07:13 AM


Originally Posted by EhGiOeS (Post 15345962)
Intuitively I did mention contact cement. What does the adhesive backing have to do with attaching and reattaching The adhesive holds the Velcro in place. The compressed thickness of the Velcro is probably around 2 mm. The increase in weight less than 10 grams. So you know intuitively that my empirical experience of some 10 years was all wrong. Its great to be gifted with knowing what right or wrong instinctively with no evidence or personal experience Ed

Compared to the thickness of a compressed glue bead, 2 mm is a huge thickness difference. It would result in a lot of extra tire stretching to get it on the rim.

But I can't argue with your experience, I just don't think I'd use that technique. My experience with tubulars spans over 40 years of non-continuous use, and my preference is easy on-road and in-shop replacement. Glue itself has not been an impediment. Rims that are over sized have added difficulty. Adding 1 mm between the tire and rim is a 2 mm increase in diameter and 6 mm increase in circumference. I would need to stretch the tire 6 mm farther to get it onto the rim.

My hands don't like that idea. Standard tires/rims can be hard enough.


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