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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

gster 12-15-21 12:30 PM


Originally Posted by oldspokes (Post 22340112)
I like the color on that Dunelt, I don't think I've ever seen anything but black down my way. Raleigh and Robin Hood are the common brands, and the Dunelts are all from the 50's. Personally, I've only had one Robin Hood that wasn't black, a mid 60's model in bright red, and that came from a family that moved here from N.S. in the early 70's.
Raleigh Sports are mostly black, brown, or green. I've seen three shades of brown and two shades of the pea green color over the years.
I had one dark blue Raleigh Wayfarer that somehow made its way here from the UK, and cranberry color 50's Sunbeam but all the rest were black.
I know they made other colors but they're rare here for some reason.

I think we Canadians got a wider/special colour selection.
My stolen Dunelt was that colour. A 1967 model
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4598b8d7c1.jpg
As purchased several years ago in Hamilton for $50.00
The funny thing is after I bought it I took it back to the shop (in Hamilton) and stripped a bunch of parts off it to
make a Path Racer.
I listed the parts on Kijiji and the same guy that sold me the bike came and bought the stripped parts...
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7b3e4e1cb0.jpg
As it was prior to the scoff.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...83f6575a3b.jpg

oldspokes 12-16-21 03:28 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 22341046)
I think we Canadians got a wider/special colour selection.
............................ ..............................

I have to agree, colors other than black, brown, or pea green are rare here. The only two bikes I've had in the past 40 years that weren't those common colors were one British racing green Sunbeam, an early 50's model, a bright metallic red 1966 Robin Hood Sports, and same color red Royce Union, from around the same era. Both red bikes were tiny humpback style frames.
For some reason, maybe just by chance but most of the men's model Raleigh sports models I've owned were in brown and all but two drop frame models have been black.
All of my Dunelts have been black, and as well as all but those two red Robin Hoods, all of those have been in black. I did have an early dark blue Norman but most of those over the years were black too.

Something that always got me around these parts is how I always find more Raleigh side brands than I do Raleigh bikes. most are 60's Robin Hood models, with Hercules being the next most common. I don't recall any local shops selling them back then I don't ever remember seeing one 'new' back in the day, just old rusty used one's that would pop up from time to time.

clubman 12-16-21 08:42 PM

Show-off time again.
 
The Carmine or Crimson red were popular as it was the national colour. Pre-65, the Canadian Red Ensign was our flag so we saw a lot of this really beautiful metallic finish.

This version of the flag is 1908. The maple leaves tie in nicely with the romanticism of the early sentiments.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0c53b0b5db.jpg





https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6abe3a0a8f.jpg


We also saw a lot of sunburst decals, maybe even paint on the head tube joins. This is was an unusual bright red '59 sports with bursts and painted fork ends.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d42265afbf.gif
.
Between 57 and the early 60's the Reg Harris gun-metal Lenton grey could be found with chrome tips.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7ea4fe2fb6.jpg

His and her dark blue '61's Superbes.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8ef2676c8f.jpg


Many versions of bronze greens too



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b30a3a4ff.jpg

Black was available on Sports but never popular. That was owned by DL-1's and Tourists.

barnfind 12-18-21 02:10 AM

In the past 40 or so years I've probably had more than 50 or so Raleigh three speeds, out of all of them I only recall one of two in green, three or four in brown, and one in silver.
I've never come across a Superbe, but have had side brand models with Dynohubs and Superbe type options. more than half of the later models I've had were the lesser models with Endrick rims or LTD models.

I've had only one in red, a 20" frame Robin Hood, which also had chrome fenders. I had one Rudge in a medium, non metallic blue, and Gold 53 Sunbeam with an FW hub and Bluemel fenders and drop bars. I had pretty much figured that it had been assembled that way back when it was much newer.

The number one brand to find here in the older English bikes is Hercules, with Robin Hood being a distance second. Dunelt, Norman, Rudge, and other side brands are rare.
Back in the day when I spent time working in a bike shop that sold Raleigh, Peugeot, Ross, Columbia, Rollfast, and Nishiki. A combo of brands that was common among many local shops back then. The number one Raleigh was the Record, but it was second in sales to the Peugeot UO8, and then various entry level Ross and Columbia road bikes. The number one upright bike was a toss up between Ross and Columbia, Rollfast at that time was fading away and mostly they only kept coaster brake models in stock. Raleigh three speeds were rarely stocked because no one wanted to spend that much. Most who wanted a three speed went next door and bought a Schwinn, which was $10 to $15 cheaper at the time. The average buyer who came in the door also wanted an American built bike, very few wanted anything imported.
The only Raleigh three speeds I remember seeing roll out the door were special ordered and most were part of a his/hers pair. They sold a good many Sprite 27 models too but most were ladies models. Men's Sprites were always 10 speeds, the ladies models were usually 5 speeds. The Sprites came in bright colors in the 70's.
I do remember seeing one all chrome Sports, it was on display in a bike shop back in the day with an 'I don't want to sell it price' on it.
I've only run across one rod brake model, a very early drop tube model that was extremely rough and rusty. A local shop had one for sale for the better part of 10 years with no takers but I seem to remember they wanted over $200 for it back in the 70's. It was there till the place closed up in the early 90's along with various other nicer models that just never sold over the years. They sort of became the owners 'collection' on display I guess.

I have a good many older Raleigh catalogs but nothing for the off brands at all besides Royal brand bikes which were English built bikes sold by Rollfast in the 60's.

That shop did get trade ins from time to time and they got many Robin Hood and Hercules models, and a few other English brands but we never knew who was selling them. I used to be able to buy them pretty cheap, the owner had no interest in fixing up used bikes. I bought quite a few of them back then and resold them elsewhere.
All of which was long before any were considered vintage or collectible. These days most that I run across are pretty rough. Rust seems to be the most common option these days.

markk900 12-18-21 03:28 PM

clubman That red is stunning! Great photo.

As to colours available, I realize that what was often ordered and what was actually available from the factory are often different, especially away from England, but this page out of the 1952 Humber catalog should give an idea of the range that could be had (potentially!)....


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c3fd422af2.jpg

nlerner 12-18-21 04:51 PM

Here's a similar color chart from a 1950 Raleigh catalog:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0dddf6c94f.jpg

clubman 12-18-21 05:04 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 22344340)
clubman That red is stunning! Great photo.

As to colours available, I realize that what was often ordered and what was actually available from the factory are often different, especially away from England, but this page out of the 1952 Humber catalog should give an idea of the range that could be had (potentially!)....


Thanks...The light was right. An unadulterated Samsung Note 3 shot.

Appreciate the Humber chart. I'd only ever seen Royal Blue and Maroon models until I bought this clapped out 52 and wondered about it. The basement light is bad. It's definitely green like the 2nd shot. Note the plain seat lugs.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...51c6922fc9.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...87e5e8a427.jpg



Neal beat me to the Raleigh but here's the Rudge.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...88a3809c44.jpg

dirtman 12-19-21 08:53 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22344429)
Thanks...The light was right. An unadulterated Samsung Note 3 shot.

Appreciate the Humber chart. I'd only ever seen Royal Blue and Maroon models until I bought this clapped out 52 and wondered about it. The basement light is bad. It's definitely green like the 2nd shot. Note the plain seat lugs.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...51c6922fc9.jpg
< x >
Neal beat me to the Raleigh but here's the Rudge.
< x >

I'm surprised that I don't at least stumble on the occasional bike here in the states from up north, I think in all my years I've only run across one low end CCM road bike, and one Miele that made its way here from up in Quebec when its owner moved to PA.

The side brand models and bright colors are rare, especially in the older models. So much so that I think black became the accepted norm for any English bike here.
In the 70's, we saw a ton of Raleigh Grand Prix 10 speeds in bright red metallic with the black headtube and seat tube panels, a few light blue Raleigh Professional models, Red or Gold Super Courses,
light metallic blue or champagne Super Grand Prix models, and black or brown men's Sports or LTD's and green or black ladies Sports models. nearly all the Hercules, Robin Hood, Dunelt, and Norman bikes were black it seems.
I looked at a bunch of bikes that local flipper had accumulated the other day, in the mix were a dozen black Raleigh side brand bikes, one black ladies sports, and a pile of brown and red Sprite 27 models all in pretty bad shape. None were worth bothering with and certainly not worth the $100 each he was asking. All would need tires and a complete going over and I only saw two wheels that looked worth bothering with.

We seem to get a different kind of rust around here too lately. Old bikes used to clean up with just a little elbow grease and some steel wool, but now I find that the rust is more severe.
The rust I find on chrome rims these days is a brown rust that flakes away metal fast. The pitting is deep and permanent. Years ago chrome would just get a light coating that would polish away fairly easily.
It was more of a red rust that formed a patina not deep pits and flakes.
Its been a long time since I found a decent set of chrome rims on an English bike, most are rusted to the point they're not usable these days.
I've got a half dozen decent bikes here that just need a good set of wheels. I could build up a set of modern wheels but its just not the same bike after that. I did use a few new old stock Rigida Chrolux rims on a few but those are even hard to find these days. The Westrick or Raleigh pattern rims seem to hold up a bit better but most of those i find have some pretty serious brake track wear.
Years ago a 60 year old bike would be found with peppered chrome and faded or worn paint, now I find them with flat tires and the lower 2" of each wheel rusted completely away.
I picked up a free Sprite 27 the other day, the bike was in pretty decent shape but both chrome rims were completely rusted through along a 6" area where they sat closes to the ground on flat tires for the past 10 years. The old guy that had it said it was sitting in his garage where it got that rusty. This area isn't all that close to the salt water either, I'm a good 20 miles or more from the nearest body of salt water. The weather here has gotten more humid though. When I lived in PA, bikes there would rust pretty bad, I had left my an old Schwinn Spitfire I had as a kid up in a hay loft in the barn, (a barn that was built in the 70's, it rusted up so bad it was nothing more than scrap up there. The rims literally fell apart and collapsed. Yet a couple of old shotguns leaning on in the corner were pretty much untouched by rust. I was really surprised to see how bad that bike rusted, I've never seen another like it since. It was a red Schwinn Spitfire, made in Birmingham, England. It looked like a rebadged Hercules or Norman.
The chainguard was the wide profile type, with a small picture of a blue and yellow plane and the word Spitfire behind it. The headbadge said Spitfire in bold with Schwinn below it.
The saddle was a two tone Wright model, the bars and stem were the same as same year Hercules. The AW hub was dated 52/2. The chain ring was unique in that in place of the usually Hercules 'H' pattern it had air planes where the 'H's would be.
The wheels were Dunlop Endrick pattern in 26x1 3/8". When I put it up there in the 80's it was in decent shape, I left it there to keep it away from the farm help and for safe keeping. When i got back to it 6 years ago there was nothing left of it. Nothing else around it was particularly rusty, and that area was mostly used to store building supplies and hay. There were several stacks of truck wheels nearby that were fine, the two shotguns, and a bunch of original windows and doors from the old farm house which were also all fine. 20 ft away began the stacks of hay and bags of sawdust for the stalls below.
The bike, and two table saws were both rusted beyond use for some reason. That same type of rust has become the norm around here lately too.
I figured back when I put it there it was pretty safe storage for that bike, it was up high in a dry barn with good ventilation and no exposure to the elements but it still rusted away.
The tires also rotted, they got gummy and soft, bits of the tires were stuck to the rusty bits of rim that had fallen away. It was dusty up there but not wet and there was no fertilizer or feed up there either. Even the aluminum headbadge was deteriorated, it fell to almost dust when i tried to pry it free before scrapping it. The only thing I was able to salvage was the rear hub, which looked like brand new inside an out other than the rusty axle ends and rusted off indicator chain. It looked like it had sat on a salty beach for 50 years.

thumpism 12-19-21 06:40 PM

Dutch, but Sturmeyed up and a rare-for-a-3-speed 24" frame.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...74883069995588

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...gg&oe=61C4AE0C

Ged117 12-19-21 06:58 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22345481)

Very cool. Thanks for this! Now I know what to look for in a size appropriate three speed. I sold my '50 Superb because it was too small and awkward to ride as I am long of leg and short torso. The era of Dutch made three speeds of the 1950s and 1960s - intriguing.

capnjonny 12-19-21 07:08 PM

I just picked up my second Raleigh 24" Space Rider in the space of a couple months. Before that I had never heard of or seen one. This blue step through is a later model as evidenced by the auto adjust front brake. It also has a coaster brake and I assume , 3 speeds. in the S/ A hub.

I have it apart and will go to work cleaning off as much rust as I can tomorrow. hopefully it will clean up nicely.

Has anyone else here had one of these? I would think it would be a great companion for it's larger stable mates. Just the thing for a father /daughter vintage ride.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cbaec8d2e4.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b7ad0119d1.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...07b561afa3.jpg

thumpism 12-19-21 08:53 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 22345503)
Very cool. Thanks for this! Now I know what to look for in a size appropriate three speed.

You'd better grab this one. This is the only non-Tourist (the classic 28" wheel Bobby bike with rod brakes) 3-speed I've seen with a 24" frame. All the "normal" Sportses stop at 23". It's nearby if you need for me to take a look at it.

rustymetal 12-20-21 05:54 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22345481)
Dutch, but Sturmeyed up and a rare-for-a-3-speed 24" frame.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...983ebb1558.jpg

it may just be an optical illusion but the forks look a bit off on this bike.
It may still be a deal but I'd pay close attention to it maybe having some crash damage.
The fender and wheel look a bit close to the down tube to me.

thumpism 12-20-21 07:30 AM


Originally Posted by rustymetal (Post 22345838)
it may just be an optical illusion but the forks look a bit off on this bike.
It may still be a deal but I'd pay close attention to it maybe having some crash damage.

As always, caveat shopper.

cszipper 12-20-21 09:29 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 22345503)
Very cool. Thanks for this! Now I know what to look for in a size appropriate three speed. I sold my '50 Superb because it was too small and awkward to ride as I am long of leg and short torso. The era of Dutch made three speeds of the 1950s and 1960s - intriguing.

I have the same bike except that the fenders are stainless steel on mine. Mine is a 1986, and I imagine the one pictured is about the same age. It has longer cranks than the old Raleighs. The stem and bar are a single piece, and the bottom bracket is a press fit assembly that uses sealed bearings. The chaincase is plastic, but pretty sturdy. The rims are stainless steel. Overall it is a nice riding bike and is well built. I like the long cranks and drum brakes, but wish I could adjust the angle of the bars. Pulling the rear wheel is a pain because there is so much attached to the rear axle. I drilled and tapped the dropouts to relocate the rack and fender stay attachments which has improved things a bit.

When I got the bike one of the bearings had seized and spun in the bottom bracket and no longer had a press fit. I installed the replacement bearing with gap filling Loctite and have had no problems since. The rear brake pads on mine were contaminated with oil from the hub and did not work well, so anyone buying the bike above (or using a Sturmey Archer AB hub elsewhere) might want to convert to grease lubrication.

-Carl

SirMike1983 12-20-21 11:25 PM

Making progress on the 1964 Schwinn Traveler 3 speed project. I'm going with a Brooks B66 instead of the stock vinyl Schwinn saddle. I'm also going with a late 1950s upside down shifter because the original 1964 shifter is faded and kind of beat up. It's fixable, but this is just going to be a nicer shifter no matter what. I still need to finish making a fixed-length shifter cable using brass tubing and the Bell Systems Model B crimper.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...-WvDuq4E=s3427

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...6GcHG101=s4032

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...X1uJQZhr=s4032

markk900 12-21-21 06:03 AM

SirMike1983 : wow that is a pretty bike. Great job! Can you provide a closeup of what looks to be a combination rear brake cable stop and pulley - that looks different to me….

gster 12-21-21 03:05 PM

1972 Sports for sale in Toronto
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4c1dab8bbe.jpg
Listed as fully restored
Optimistically priced at $599.00

bluesteak 12-21-21 06:46 PM

AB driver
 
I have a 39/40 Elswick 26 inch woman’s roadster which I have been playing with again. It has an undated AB hub, with a threaded driver and an 18 tooth cog. It looks a lot better now with a chain case, and I think my wife might consent to ride it with a 22 tooth cog. Can I use any AW hub to donate a driver?

SirMike1983 12-21-21 09:41 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 22347084)
SirMike1983 : wow that is a pretty bike. Great job! Can you provide a closeup of what looks to be a combination rear brake cable stop and pulley - that looks different to me….


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4c1d1f4af5.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...773e566875.jpg

markk900 12-22-21 07:48 AM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 22347845)
I have a 39/40 Elswick 26 inch woman’s roadster which I have been playing with again. It has an undated AB hub, with a threaded driver and an 18 tooth cog. It looks a lot better now with a chain case, and I think my wife might consent to ride it with a 22 tooth cog. Can I use any AW hub to donate a driver?

Tried looking it up to be sure in Sutherlands but he doesn't say specifically, however I think all the A series drivers are interchangeable - I did the threaded to circlip change on a 49 AW hub and it was a trivial change, so I would go ahead and give it a shot. Also I read elsewhere in BF that threaded cogs are still available to fit the threaded driver.....however in my case I was reluctant to put enough force on the sprocket to unthread it from the driver - it was on TIGHT....easier to throw in an circlip driver and be done with it.

markk900 12-22-21 07:53 AM

SirMike1983 Thanks for the detail shots. What an elegant solution!

I will say though that the location of the brazed on mount for the pulley on my Humber (and other Raleighs) has one small advantage over the Schwinn - the wire exits the pulley exactly parallel to the seat stay. Designed for those of us with OCD......

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...974ef1793a.jpg

SirMike1983 12-22-21 09:39 AM

I have a 1958 Sports with one of those frame-mounted Raleigh pulleys. It's a cleaner design than the Schwinn. I think Raleigh had it right with the frame-mounted pulley set up: well-positioned with no excess to it. The Schwinn is nice as well, though it is somewhat overbuilt for what it is. Both systems are a liability today in that parts can be difficult to find for them. It's much easier to find parts for a regular clamp-on pulley system. They're great when you have all the parts, but if yours needs parts... not an easy thing. The Schwinn has an additional liability in that it is very easy to snap the thin tail of the screw that mounts the wheel to the frame.

Salubrious 12-22-21 12:46 PM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 22347845)
I have a 39/40 Elswick 26 inch woman’s roadster which I have been playing with again. It has an undated AB hub, with a threaded driver and an 18 tooth cog. It looks a lot better now with a chain case, and I think my wife might consent to ride it with a 22 tooth cog. Can I use any AW hub to donate a driver?

Yes.

Its not that hard to change the threaded cog though. You will need a sturdy bit of metal that can be placed in a vice. The handle of a spanner will do nicely. You place the driver on the handle of the spanner so that it is kept still. You'll need a 'chain whip' which is a handle with a bit of chain attached. You can get such a tool from Park Tools, used for removing cogs from track bike hubs. The tricky bit is that the chain will have to be changed out with a length that fits your cog. I found that was not difficult.
https://www.parktool.com/product/spr...n-whip-sr-12-2
I had to play with some small washers when I mounted the wider chain for the cog to the tool.

Surly has a handsome 22T cog. Its shiny but fits inside the chaincase so it can't be seen.

Easy with the right tools.

gster 12-23-21 09:39 AM

Nothing to do with vintage bikes
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...88ce3404d1.jpg
Streamline train in downtown Syracuse


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