Can we talk wheel stiffness and ride quality? (vintage, of course)
 

Tires get attention often, rightly so :thumb:, but I haven't seen a thread lately about vintage wheels, rims and perceived ride quality. Different rims for different purposes. Tell us what you think and what you like.


A 'suddenly it hit me' story.
During the Puget Sound wet-ish winter, between the showers, I have been getting in mini-rides on every vintage bike - tweaking the details (for an aging old man), enjoying the tubesets, getting the different 'feel' of each & understanding why, analyzing tires and best pressure, etc. Parsing all the various elements to bring out the unique and best qualities of each.

I keep coming back to one bike that 'hits above' my expectation. For clarification, that does not mean the best race bike or best touring bike. Also talking about drop handlebar, skinny (22-25mm) tired bikes. The bike is a pretty standard lugged 531 butted, 73° ||, sport touring type frameset.

I suddenly realize the rear wheel is an Araya Aero 1 tubular and probably stiffer (not lighter) than most of my vintage wheels (maybe). So maybe that 'power responsiveness' is the 32spoke, V-shaped rim? Anyway - was worth thinking about IMHO.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0b35ee831.jpeg

edit: good ole Velobase - shoulda checked there first - late '70s for intro? Thought it was '80s
VeloBase.com - Component: Araya Aero 1 (ADX-1)
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0549ac285.jpeg


:o, yeah - shame on Wildhair for the mismatched wheelset. Front is a Mavic GL330.

Rim profile certainly has a big effect on wheel stiffness. I really feel the difference with my 28 spoke, Wolber Profil 20 aero wheelset and my 32 spoke wheelsets with conventional box profiles. The Profil 20s feels so much stiffer and I haven't had to true them again, after I built them.

I have very similar 24/28 wheel builds using Kinlin rims. The A cross section wheels ride firmer than the ones with more of an Open4CD rim profile.

my thinking is it is a combo of rim, spokes, tire and tubes

I am not sure it is stiffness alone

my example on my 84 team miyata

1) came with heavy 25 mm bontrager tires and even heavier super thick thorn proof tires. MA40 rims, double butted spokes, dura ace hubs.
Road like a dog...heavy no get up and go

2) switched wheelset (wheelsmith build) to 25mm challenge elite tubes, Mavic 330 gel rims (people have different thought as to whether this is race or training...at my size race) double butted spokes, nice sanshin sealed hubs.
Different bike just wanted to go hard and dance in corners. I could not believe how different the feel was

3) Back to the MA40 wheelset, but with 28mm gravel king and cont race lite tubes.
Not quite the magic of the tubies, but damn nice ride. I may swap out the GK for a pair of Rene Herse and latex tubes and see where that gets me

These Ambrosio Montreal w/ 36 spokes seemed smooth and steady on another bike, hoping to have them on the road again shortly. On a '72 Holdsworth Pro.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f9f3f0bc39.jpg

Tires are HUGE, no doubt. Probably why wheels get less attention in C&V.

and everyone's going to fatter tires.

edit: some of my favorite rides (for good pavement outings) were wearing Conti Sprinters 22, a stiff sidewall tire w/ butyl tubes. Like on the DeRosa - with Mavic GP4, 32 spokes.

I've got a pair of those Arraya Aeros with 7400 hubs that I haven't tried yet. I should transplant those rims onto the Superbe Pro hubs that are currently clinchered to my Cannondale for a stiffness match made in heaven. My favorite all day wheels are Gl330s/DT Comps/7400/22mm Continental Sprinters in 22mm. They were on my 86 IM that has moved on and they will go on my 85 IM when I stop commuting on it.

OPs Araya aero 1 tubular was pretty 'revolutionary' for a few reasons. Obvious is the 'aero' shape but the V also for strength. I suppose some sort or improved hard anodized surface was to strengthen. Didn't help for braking, though. I recall they required a unique shaped thick ally spacer for the nipple.

Spoke count and lace pattern matters as well.

The next series was the Aero ADX2. I still have a few. The dissection view is slightly different on the inside, yet still required a spoke nipple washer (not spacer like the Aero1). The washer is beveled. Also, this tubular rim is wider by a few millimeters.

Both are reasonably lightweight for its era, but then one has to add the spacers (or the beveled washers), ball park it all around 300gm. for 700c. They made them for TT builds, smaller diam. as well.

One time had built a a very fast light but scary wheelset---- for straight roads only, using a similar rim made by Sun. Think they were called Mistral. Made in Warsaw, IN. Low spoke count fiber flite spokes radial laced up front. Rear was ti spokes, 3x drive side, radial NDS.

For the clean roads and truly get most what classic steel race bikes are about, tubular is my 1st choice. Especially the later years rubber technology. If you can fit 28 to 30mm, the Vittoria Corsa control graphene blah blah are heavenly.

Is there a Too-Stiff wheel?

My neighbor gifted me his set of nearly unused Rolf Vectors and I stuck them on my Panasonic Team and it’s definitely been a change for the better even though they weigh about the same if not a hair more than what was on there.

Is there 'Too stiff a wheel'? Not if one believes there is no such thing as too harsh a ride, or uses tire size/inflation to control stiffness.

edit Rolf Vector like this?
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3a9f1dcb3a.jpg

I like a communicative and responsive wheelset. Having ridden a number of wheels both vintage and modern, I really enjoy the vintage Mavic MA2 and MA40 siblings. Double wall, box section--simple and effective. They seem to be happy with anything from straight-gauge spokes (14ga/2.0mm) to a lightweight array of 2.0-1.5-2.0 / 2.0-1.8-2.0 DT Swiss Revolution/Competition. I've ridden 32h and 36h varieties. Never too stiff, never soft--reasonable tire and pressure, naturally. Pacenti Brevets and H Plus Son TB14s are worthy new era torch carriers of the MA2/MA40, and I presently use them and very much appreciate their presence. That being said, a well built vintage Mavic gives up nothing to the wider Brevets and TB14s, IMO. It's handled Soma 42mm tires just fine, even if 42s were a bit mushy on my 720 (which runs MA2s).

Matrix Iso C II's are a really solid rim. They maybe feel stiffer than an MA2, but it's always been tempered by a 28-32mm tan wall Vittoria. They're not as stiff as a TB14 with the same tire, that's for sure. I usually buy them for the looks and overall visual composition.

As far as modern rims go, for comparison, Shimano RS81/Dura-Ace C24 carbon/aluminum wheels are extremely responsive, comfortable, yet still robust for their minimal weight. They absolutely do not like any tire larger than 32mm (the front, I suppose, in particular) as the larger tires can really yank the low-spoke-count wheel around on high speed corners. At least in my experience. I've run DT Swiss R23 Spline (P1800 Spline is a fraternal twin for all intents and purposes) and that's plenty stiff with 28-32mm tires, but it handles the big boys (up to 48mm) very well, which is only what I ever used them for. I guess that says something about how stiff/strong it is and how I didn't want to be pummeled on city streets and small tires.

Mavic Open Pros and CXP33s, especially in gloss black with machined brake tracks, are beautiful rims. As built, there is no noteworthy character. They build nicely, hold up well over the long haul, and look good. They aren't stiff-feeling, which is great, but they lack the character of an MA2/MA40. One's mileage may vary, of course.

For context, my setups go like this:

'82 Trek 720 - 7400 8-speed hubs (32h) to MA2s with DT Competition and Revolution spokes - Compass 35mm tires measuring 35mm @ 52f/59r PSI
'85 Trek 620 - Ultegra 6500 hubs (32h) to TB14s with DT Swiss Champion (14ga) spokes - Donnelly Explor 40mm tires measuring nearly 40mm @ 35f/40r PSI
'80 Trek 510 - Shimano RS81 C24 wheels (20/24h) with Rene Herse 32mm tires and Vittoria latex tubes (all others are standard butyl), tires measure 30mm @ 62f/69r PSI
'84 Trek 620 - 7400 8-speed hubs (32h) to Pacenti Brevets with DT Revolutions (front) and Competition (rear) spokes - Compass 35mm tires at 35mm wide @ 52f/59r PSI

The MA2's will be with the 720 forever. Brevets are a lateral move, not an upgrade. If anything, they're a downgrade in the finish department as the MA2s have a beautiful, bright polish that works perfectly with the 720's component and color composition.