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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Salubrious 02-06-18 02:09 PM


Originally Posted by thms (Post 20153515)
Hi,

Unfortunately in Germany you see a Raleigh Sports on ebay once in a blue moon (no need to talk about the Schwinns or Robin Hoods).

So, do you know if there's a pendant for continental Europe? Since Sturmey Archer is very rare here I would say that these would use a Fichtel Sachs (Torpedo) IGH. I only finde bikes like these but the're lacking the elegance of the Raleighs:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...08030-217-9505

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...73100-217-8190

I have a 1950s French made machine called a Riva-Sport. It employs a Brampton hub and shifter (which are copies of the Sturmey Archer AW hub). The frame is hand built and is obviously lighter than the English frames, but it is similar geometry and ride. Google failed to turn up much about it so it is rare even in Europe. But something to look out for.

Ballenxj 02-06-18 02:45 PM


Originally Posted by ascherer (Post 20154396)
This is pretty sweet!

World Championship Raleigh: Jeff Bock Lake Pepin Rider | Cycle EXIF

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP RALEIGH: JEFF BOCK LAKE PEPIN RIDER
<-------->
One of Ohio’s most esteemed frame builders, Jeff Bock, is a self-confessed Raleigh addict. After a long stint working in shops that were Raleigh dealers and participating in last year’s Lake Pepin 3-Speed Tour, he decided to build one of his own.
<-------->
The geometry, based on an early ‘60s Raleigh Superbe, was tweaked to accommodate 650b wheels, and the lugs and BB shell were cut from blanks, inspired by the old Prugnat lug set. He also built the front and rear racks with 4130, 5/16 inch diameter tubing.
<-------->
The original Superbe paint scheme of Bronze Green was maintained, with box lining by John Parker (with a brush), but the real star is the rear hub: a 1953 Sturmey Archer unit with an alloy shell, which had sat in a bin at his shop for decades, waiting for this build.
<-------->

Now this would be the 3 speed of my dreams! In the car world this might be referred to as a Resto-Rod, meaning restored, but Hot-Rodded at the same time. :thumb:

nlerner 02-06-18 04:51 PM

^ That's cool. I actually have a 40-hole 650B rim in my stash and was thinking about building it with a 40-holed Sturmey-Archer steel shelled FW that I also have. The problem is I don't have a frame currently to hang it on!

gster 02-06-18 07:00 PM


Originally Posted by ascherer (Post 20154396)
This is pretty sweet!

World Championship Raleigh: Jeff Bock Lake Pepin Rider | Cycle EXIF

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP RALEIGH: JEFF BOCK LAKE PEPIN RIDER
http://www.cycleexif.com/wp-content/...in-rider-1.jpg

One of Ohio’s most esteemed frame builders, Jeff Bock, is a self-confessed Raleigh addict. After a long stint working in shops that were Raleigh dealers and participating in last year’s Lake Pepin 3-Speed Tour, he decided to build one of his own.
http://www.cycleexif.com/wp-content/...in-rider-2.jpg

The geometry, based on an early ‘60s Raleigh Superbe, was tweaked to accommodate 650b wheels, and the lugs and BB shell were cut from blanks, inspired by the old Prugnat lug set. He also built the front and rear racks with 4130, 5/16 inch diameter tubing.
http://www.cycleexif.com/wp-content/...in-rider-8.jpg

The original Superbe paint scheme of Bronze Green was maintained, with box lining by John Parker (with a brush), but the real star is the rear hub: a 1953 Sturmey Archer unit with an alloy shell, which had sat in a bin at his shop for decades, waiting for this build.
http://www.cycleexif.com/wp-content/...n-rider-10.jpg

That bike is a work of art.
I'd be afraid to ride it.

BigChief 02-06-18 07:20 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20154845)
That bike is a work of art.
I'd be afraid to ride it.

Yes! That is magnificent.

steelcollector 02-07-18 11:56 AM

1976 Raleigh 3 speed
 
1 Attachment(s)
My 1976 Raleigh 3 speed in rare yellow color.

johnnyspaghetti 02-07-18 12:20 PM

1 Attachment(s)
So this 58' Robin Hood Sports came with a "SW" hub. It has a 19 tooth sprocket & 48 tooth crank. What other than that is different from an "AW" hub?
As far as I know all the other hubs I have are AW w/18 tooth sprocket.

Attachment 598557

BigChief 02-07-18 01:20 PM

Never had an SW hub. All I know about them I learned from here:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sw.html

Salubrious 02-07-18 01:50 PM


Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti (Post 20156137)
So this 58' Robin Hood Sports came with a "SW" hub. It has a 19 tooth sprocket & 48 tooth crank. What other than that is different from an "AW" hub?
As far as I know all the other hubs I have are AW w/18 tooth sprocket.

The SW is silent, and has a wider range then the AW.

They also tend to slip, especially in 3rd gear. The design really isn't that bad, but the metallurgy at the time wasn't up to the task. There are a series of crescent moon-shaped pawls that tend to wear and fracture (as I understand it) and then the hub starts slipping.

I have a theory that if you made new versions of the parts with better materials and used a better lubricant, that it might hold up. The wider range is certainly nice- lower low, higher high.

curbtender 02-07-18 04:24 PM

4 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by curbtender (Post 20132187)
Picked up a Royal to get the bars for a Bridgestone project. Nice rider as is. Any opinions on the brand? I've got a few random parts to keep it looking like an English touring bike, but it won't be original. What's the general opinion on fenders, yea or neah?

Took off what I needed and what was damaged. Found a nice rack that had been lost in the shed. Almost put red and tan tires on but it didn't look right. 64' Royal, made by BPHarris for Roll fast.

johnnyspaghetti 02-07-18 04:57 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20156347)
The SW is silent, and has a wider range then the AW.

They also tend to slip, especially in 3rd gear. The design really isn't that bad, but the metallurgy at the time wasn't up to the task. There are a series of crescent moon-shaped pawls that tend to wear and fracture (as I understand it) and then the hub starts slipping.

I have a theory that if you made new versions of the parts with better materials and used a better lubricant, that it might hold up. The wider range is certainly nice- lower low, higher high.

Well thats Interesting, different a good thing- if the pawls are not all worn out I guess. I'm optimistic. I looks to me to be another one the was seldom used & the Dunlop EA3 rim although needs some light rust attention it is in good shape fairly true and no curb knocks, dings. The hub is noticeably smaller in diameter hard to tell at a glance but about 1/4". It doesn't feel any lighter.
__________________

BigChief 02-07-18 05:48 PM


Originally Posted by curbtender (Post 20156704)
Took off what I needed and what was damaged. Found a nice rack that had been lost in the shed. Almost put red and tan tires on but it didn't look right. 64' Royal, made by BPHarris for Roll fast.

I've never seen a Royal badged bike before and I've never heard of BP Harris, but the frame and fork are Raleigh made and the features are consistent with the mid 60s date.

nlerner 02-07-18 05:48 PM

I've had a couple of Raleighs with SW hubs, and they worked fine, but I also didn't hold on to those bikes for very long. One downside of the smaller hub shell is that you can't swap in the guts from a different hub. It was not Sturmey Archer's most brilliant idea.

clubman 02-07-18 06:21 PM

A skilled old-world mechanic friend was delighted to tear one of mine apart to see how they work. Apparently they have no pawl springs and just move in and out of position. This exploded diagram shows no springs in the parts list. My 59 works just fine but I don't ride it at all. Interesting that the date on this exploded diagram is dated 1954 Mark I. It took 3 more years before these got to market.

BigChief 02-07-18 07:02 PM

From the Sheldon Brown article, the problem was wear and chipping of those tiny pawls. That would mean you're stuck. Harder steel to fight wear would be more likely to chip and softer steel would wear faster. Maybe the idea of a 3 planet design, but with husky, spring loaded pawls with more solid engagement would be even better than the trusty AW. Who cares if the pawls click if the hub is smoother and more efficient.

gster 02-07-18 07:26 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20156975)
From the Sheldon Brown article, the problem was wear and chipping of those tiny pawls. That would mean you're stuck. Harder steel to fight wear would be more likely to chip and softer steel would wear faster. Maybe the idea of a 3 planet design, but with husky, spring loaded pawls with more solid engagement would be even better than the trusty AW. Who cares if the pawls click if the hub is smoother and more efficient.

I like the ticking sound.
I find it very comforting as I ride.

johnnyspaghetti 02-08-18 07:25 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20157007)
I like the ticking sound.
I find it very comforting as I ride.

I find the ticking soothing as well. Now that I own an SW I will put it to good use though it may not be as sturdy as an AW. I cleaned off the external crud & filled & flushed it with kerosene as I worked the bearings and things are rolling very smoothly I did get some dirty crud out the hollow axle ends and the hub shell port. I will dig into it in day or so. I could hear the pawls moving around in there.

The pull chain has half a broken link at the chain pin and the threaded pin section looks to be different than indicators for the AW hub, will these possibly swap out?
This could be a problem. The SW rod has a collar and is thinner than an AW pin.

Sheldon Brown & links provided by his SW page pretty much tell all about the shortcomings of the SW hub in an understandable way.

JohnDThompson 02-08-18 08:03 AM


Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti (Post 20156137)
So this 58' Robin Hood Sports came with a "SW" hub. It has a 19 tooth sprocket & 48 tooth crank. What other than that is different from an "AW" hub?

The SW is a completely different design from the AW. It was intended to replace the aging AW design at the time (AW dated back to the mid 1930s, so the design was already more than 20 years old by the time the SW came out in the mid 1950s), but for variety of reasons fell short of its promise.

It's an interesting design: slightly wider gear range than the AW, and far fewer parts inside, none of which interchange with the AW. It's much easier to overhaul than the AW, and slightly lighter.

Its "Achilles heel" are the springless pawls, which while contributing greatly to the ease of overhaul also introduced their own problems. As noted above, they can chip under heavy use, but OTOH, can be flipped around to get a fresh new wear surface.

But the biggest issue, in my experience, is poor cold weather performance. The springless pawls in general take longer to engage than sprung pawls, and when the temperature gets cold enough (~0°C or colder), often fail to engage at all for several full crank revolutions.

Sheldon Brown's SW page does include a description of modifying the hub to use flat springs, which eliminates this problem. But in my experience, it's not a permanent fix. The pawls rock back and forth on the flat springs, and eventually wear through the springs, requiring replacement.

But, if you intend to ride in reasonably warm conditions, and/or are willing to modify the hub to use flats springs, the SW isn't bad. The unmodified hub is eerie-quiet, and even the modified hub is quieter than an AW. The wider gear range may be appreciated as well.

nlerner 02-08-18 08:50 AM


Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti (Post 20157635)
I find the ticking soothing as well. Now that I own an SW I will put it to good use though it may not be as sturdy as an AW. I cleaned off the external crud & filled & flushed it with kerosene as I worked the bearings and things are rolling very smoothly I did get some dirty crud out the hollow axle ends and housing port. I will dig into it in day or so. I could hear the pawls moving around in there.

The pull chain has half a broken link at the chain pin and the threaded pin section looks to be different than indicators for the AW hub, will these possibly swap out?
This could be a problem. The SW rod has a collar and is thinner than an AW pin.

Sheldon Brown & links provided by his SW page pretty much tell all about the shortcomings of the SW hub in an understandable way.

I believe the SW indicator is a two-piece unit as shown in this diagram. I think I might actually have one if you need a replacement.

curbtender 02-08-18 09:25 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20156862)
I've never seen a Royal badged bike before and I've never heard of BP Harris, but the frame and fork are Raleigh made and the features are consistent with the mid 60s date.

I edited my post. Sticker says made for DP Harris Hardware and Manufacturing , Rollfast.

JohnDThompson 02-08-18 02:55 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20157784)
I believe the SW indicator is a two-piece unit as shown in this diagram. I think I might actually have one if you need a replacement.

I have several SW hubs; some of them have two piece indicators, some have one piece indicators. It's not clear why this is; the date codes on the hubs show some two-piece hubs as newer than some one-piece hubs, and vice-versa.

johnnyspaghetti 02-08-18 04:41 PM

It's a long winter in Minnesota.
This is removed from the subject . Watching the morning news at 5am this story was told.

Failure to Launch: Man Hurt After Jumping 'Rocket Bike' Off Roof in Willmar | KSTP.com

As I browsed craigslist this afternoon this ad popped up- the same contraption shown on the news

Rocket Bike - $100 (Willmar)


https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/d...488891703.html

https://images.craigslist.org/00U0U_...LU_600x450.jpg

Salubrious 02-08-18 04:55 PM

^^ There is no substitute for good old-fashioned stupid.

johnnyspaghetti 02-08-18 09:06 PM

So the difference between an AW top & SW below is a no brainer. They are different animals. The collar is a threaded bushing of sorts that screws on the threads inside the hub. The broken link is guarantee fail not to mention the twisted chain.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&i...1&disp=safe&zw

johnnyspaghetti 02-09-18 09:47 AM


Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti (Post 20159302)
So the difference between an AW top & SW below is a no brainer. They are different animals. The collar is a threaded bushing of sorts that screws on the threads inside the hub. The broken link is guarantee fail not to mention the twisted chain.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&i...1&disp=safe&zw

Are my pictures posting? I'v been told not.


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