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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

arty dave 05-17-18 07:40 PM

Thanks nlerner, great to see the close-ups! I think I'll try this - I was already thinking right side trad bare cable pulley wheel, and left side running down to maybe a pulley wheel near the BB, but I hadn't thought of a downtube shifter. I think it's a neat and tidy set-up you've got, particularly seeing your handlebars. Did you do the chainstay outer to keep the cable a bit cleaner in that area?
I've got the same shimano bell-crank and spring from Mark. How was the hub behaving in low?

nlerner 05-17-18 08:28 PM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 20346017)
Thanks nlerner, great to see the close-ups! I think I'll try this - I was already thinking right side trad bare cable pulley wheel, and left side running down to maybe a pulley wheel near the BB, but I hadn't thought of a downtube shifter. I think it's a neat and tidy set-up you've got, particularly seeing your handlebars. Did you do the chainstay outer to keep the cable a bit cleaner in that area?
I've got the same shimano bell-crank and spring from Mark. How was the hub behaving in low?

I'm not sure I understand the first question ("Did you do the chainstay outer to keep the cable a bit cleaner in that area?"). I assume you mean the left-side cable routing--what would an alternative be?

And as I noted above, the hub had some distress in low gear, mostly slipping out of gear under severe load (e.g., climbing a grade greater than 10%). If I shifted up into a higher gear and then back down again, it corrected itself.

BigChief 05-17-18 09:41 PM

I used the traditional 3 speed trigger/ top tube cable stop and top tube guide wheel for the right and a handlebar mounted SunTour power shifter with the cable housing all the way to a seat stay cable stop just above the bell crank. So far, this S5 works flawlessly. I'm very impressed with it. Although 99% of the time I ride with the bell crank disengaged (medium ratio mode)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7181bbfe3b.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3d45f5311a.jpg

arty dave 05-17-18 10:35 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20346101)
I'm not sure I understand the first question ("Did you do the chainstay outer to keep the cable a bit cleaner in that area?"). I assume you mean the left-side cable routing--what would an alternative be?

And as I noted above, the hub had some distress in low gear, mostly slipping out of gear under severe load (e.g., climbing a grade greater than 10%). If I shifted up into a higher gear and then back down again, it corrected itself.

Sorry about that, I wrote from work and I rushed that response, didn't unpack my brain properly and wasn't very clear in my question and description. Yes I was talking about the left side. With 3 and 5 speed shifter routing I've more often seen either bare cable or full housing to a stop/clip near the hub, but I haven't often seen half bare cable half housed cable like you've done - and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, just haven't seen it before. I see now that one reason you may have done it like this is because you have a braze-on cable stop already there on the downtube - one alternative is running bare cable from the downtube shifter to a pulley or cable guide near the BB.
I really like the S5 hubs so I'm always interested in how people set them up.

nlerner 05-18-18 04:24 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 20346235)
I see now that one reason you may have done it like this is because you have a braze-on cable stop already there on the downtube - one alternative is running bare cable from the downtube shifter to a pulley or cable guide near the BB.
I really like the S5 hubs so I'm always interested in how people set them up.

Yup, thatís exactly why I did it that way. Iíve also set up drive-side gear cables on SuperCourse conversions using the existing chain stay cable stop though it does give you kind of an oblique angle from the stop to the indicator. Still seems to work fine.

paulb_in_bkln 05-18-18 04:33 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20346101)
And as I noted above, the hub had some distress in low gear, mostly slipping out of gear under severe load (e.g., climbing a grade greater than 10%). If I shifted up into a higher gear and then back down again, it corrected itself.

Is this a characteristic of these hubs?

nlerner 05-18-18 04:37 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20346344)
Is this a characteristic of these hubs?

i donít have much experience with S5 hubs, but slipping in lowest gear has been a problem with various 4-speed S-A hubs Iíve ridden (FW and FM).

BigChief 05-18-18 04:52 AM

When I first got this Sprite, it had two stick shifters mounted on the top tube/ full housing cables down the seat stays to stops. When I modified it, I kept the top tube to seat stay routing for the left side. Now that I've had time to think more about it, it would look much cleaner if I had routed the left cable along the down tube to a chain stay stop. 3 cables on the top tube is a bit cluttered looking.
I've only had this one S5, but I have not experienced any problems with it at all. Well...after I got rid of the stick shifters that is.

nlerner 05-18-18 05:59 AM

I figure that a slipping low gear under load on a steep hill is Sturmey Archer’s way of telling me I should walk!

BigChief 05-18-18 06:26 AM

I'll take my Sprite out for my morning ride after chores. There's a steep spot I usually walk. I'll try mashing my way up in low and report back later. It might help determine if slipping is inherent to the design or not. I don't use the hub with the bell crank engaged hardly at all. I love the medium ratio spread with the left side disengaged and have no use at all for the 50% increase top gear.

gster 05-18-18 06:58 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20346455)
I'll take my Sprite out for my morning ride after chores. There's a steep spot I usually walk. I'll try mashing my way up in low and report back later. It might help determine if slipping is inherent to the design or not. I don't use the hub with the bell crank engaged hardly at all. I love the medium ratio spread with the left side disengaged and have no use at all for the 50% increase top gear.

I don't ride my 5 speed as often as I should but I swapped out the original dual shifters for the dual "throttle" style that I quite like.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7b29ae938b.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1f8e34ba5a.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...46d98b379f.jpg

BigChief 05-18-18 07:56 AM

It stayed firmly in low gear. Not really a fair test though. I'm not half the rider I used to be. Still, I'm 180 lbs and I was standing and putting my weight onto those crank arms. Slipping out of low doesn't seem to be an issue with at least this one S5 hub. Let's just say it's geezer proof anyway.

gster 05-18-18 09:20 AM

I was having a little trouble with the non drive side crank on this recent project. 1969 Robin Hood.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ae7b4d0ee0.jpg
It had a slight "skip". It appears that the cotter had been drilled out but a fresh pin seems to have cured the problem.
A few other bugs to work out but otherwise a nice Semi Scorcher.

desconhecido 05-18-18 10:46 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20346432)
I figure that a slipping low gear under load on a steep hill is Sturmey Archerís way of telling me I should walk!

Is your 5 speed hub a 5 speed from the start or is it a modified 4 speed? Is the low gear slipping thing a matter of fine adjustment or is it inherent to the hubs, do you think?

I have an FG hub bought a couple years ago from a forum member with plans to put it on one of the Raleigh Super Course MKIIs that we have around here. Finally got it built into a wheel last week using a Dyad rim, but other projects have intervened. The Super Course seems to me to be the ideal candidate for this sort of thing given the absence of a derailleur hanger.

dweenk 05-18-18 12:16 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20345994)
I got that one from Mark Stonich/BIkeSmith Design, and he retapped it for Raleigh-specific threading.

Other than having the Shimano bell crank re-tapped, were any other modifications required?

Salubrious 05-18-18 12:22 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 20346349)
i donít have much experience with S5 hubs, but slipping in lowest gear has been a problem with various 4-speed S-A hubs Iíve ridden (FW and FM).

I've got several of both the FW and FM hubs (and prefer the FW). They never slip in any gear unless the toggle chain is too loose. Sometimes it takes some finesse to get it into low.

BigChief 05-18-18 03:53 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20346766)
I was having a little trouble with the non drive side crank on this recent project. 1969 Robin Hood.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ae7b4d0ee0.jpg
It had a slight "skip". It appears that the cotter had been drilled out but a fresh pin seems to have cured the problem.
A few other bugs to work out but otherwise a nice Semi Scorcher.

That looks really nice. I'm developing an even deeper appreciation for these stripped down semi scorchers. A very handy and fun ride. Without fenders, You can take off the wheels and fit the bike in the back seat of a small car, you can fix anything in your back yard, the wheels are super sturdy and the tires are a good compromise for less than perfect road conditions. Even if you do crash and bend something, you can generally just bend it back. The AW hub is incredibly reliable and the bike has quick responsive handling. I think I need to make another!!

Cute Boy Horse 05-18-18 04:10 PM

Finally got sick of my terrible 80s rectangular headlight and decided to go for a proper bullet one. Ones in the store are terrible 1LED battery blinkies or else extremely cheap looking. All the real Sturmey Archer lights on ebay were rusted and postage UK to Netherlands was through the roof. Only choice left was one of those 12V 5.5W dynamo kits direct from China.

https://s7.postimg.cc/pfl7lbbez/IMAG0453.jpg
https://s7.postimg.cc/7cs4u3na3/IMAG0456.jpg
https://s7.postimg.cc/6n9chq7az/IMAG0446.jpg

The dynamo is trash. The spring loaded part got damaged in the post and the roller is on there at a weird angle. It makes a horrible loud noise and vibrates the whole bike so bad at five miles an hour you think it's going to fall to bits.

The headlamp itself is really nice though. It doesn't have any kind of focus control like Sturmey's 50s lights, but it's got a separate high and low beam.

I think with some LEDs put in and a DBU it's going to be perfect.

EDIT: Around midnight I gave it a go, and with some adjustment I got the sound and vibration to a more tolerable level. The big 5.5W bulb gives out the same amount of light as my 1W LED did in the old lamp, only more evenly spread, and with a really warm orange tone. It's honestly incredibly cozy. I think what I'll do is I'll put a 2W filament in the rear housing and power that off of the dynohub.

I could also still go with a LED conversion, either from the dynohub or use an actually good bottle dyno, and get the bike silent again, but I'm starting to enjoy the sound. It's like I've got a motor on here.

gster 05-19-18 05:52 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20347559)
That looks really nice. I'm developing an even deeper appreciation for these stripped down semi scorchers. A very handy and fun ride. Without fenders, You can take off the wheels and fit the bike in the back seat of a small car, you can fix anything in your back yard, the wheels are super sturdy and the tires are a good compromise for less than perfect road conditions. Even if you do crash and bend something, you can generally just bend it back. The AW hub is incredibly reliable and the bike has quick responsive handling. I think I need to make another!!

Thanks, I have to agree with you.I'm still having a couple of issues with the Robin Hood but my previous semi (Glider) is an absolute pleasure to ride.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...288dffc140.jpg
The bike is light and responsive.Virtually silent. No rattling fenders and chain guard.I had it out last week for a full day of city errands and other that getting caught in the rain it was perfect. This one has a 19 or 20 cog (I have to check) and the gearing is just right for me.
I find that the fenders and chain guards on these bikes are generally pretty ratty by now and aren't worth the effort to restore.

The Robin Hood has 2 issues to address.
1-the bike is not tracking well. The front end wanders. Not sure why, Everything is straight and appears true. It has a 26 x 1 1/4 rim up front.
2-it doesn't want to engage in first gear. The hub (1965) appeared good but I didn't take it apart.Cable is new and seems properly adjusted.
I'll fiddle with it some more and if that fails I'll have a look inside.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...54fbdfd459.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 05-19-18 06:48 AM


Originally Posted by Cute Boy Horse (Post 20347583)

Handsome bike whatever the headlight.

BigChief 05-19-18 08:08 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20348272)
Thanks, I have to agree with you.I'm still having a couple of issues with the Robin Hood but my previous semi (Glider) is an absolute pleasure to ride.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...288dffc140.jpg
The bike is light and responsive.Virtually silent. No rattling fenders and chain guard.I had it out last week for a full day of city errands and other that getting caught in the rain it was perfect. This one has a 19 or 20 cog (I have to check) and the gearing is just right for me.
I find that the fenders and chain guards on these bikes are generally pretty ratty by now and aren't worth the effort to restore.

The Robin Hood has 2 issues to address.
1-the bike is not tracking well. The front end wanders. Not sure why, Everything is straight and appears true. It has a 26 x 1 1/4 rim up front.
2-it doesn't want to engage in first gear. The hub (1965) appeared good but I didn't take it apart.Cable is new and seems properly adjusted.
I'll fiddle with it some more and if that fails I'll have a look inside.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...54fbdfd459.jpg

Have you done the string test? I know, it's real back yard technology, but it works. I've used it in the past along with some highly precise 2x4 cold setting to fix wandering 3 speeds in the past.

Cute Boy Horse 05-19-18 11:37 AM

I've found the easiest way to check for a crooked frame, even before the string test, is to ride in a straight line at a decent pace and look down. If the stays are off to one side, then from your perspective on the saddle the entire frame will look the same number of degrees off. With cars they call it crabbing, it's like you're driving sideways.

nlerner 05-19-18 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by desconhecido (Post 20346978)
Is your 5 speed hub a 5 speed from the start or is it a modified 4 speed? Is the low gear slipping thing a matter of fine adjustment or is it inherent to the hubs, do you think?

I have an FG hub bought a couple years ago from a forum member with plans to put it on one of the Raleigh Super Course MKIIs that we have around here. Finally got it built into a wheel last week using a Dyad rim, but other projects have intervened. The Super Course seems to me to be the ideal candidate for this sort of thing given the absence of a derailleur hanger.

It's a "native" 5-speed S-A hub, not a conversion (which I've also done--that's why I had the parts from Mark Stonich). And I've converted many a SuperCourse to IGH over the years--they are a great platform for experimentation.


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 20347170)
Other than having the Shimano bell crank re-tapped, were any other modifications required?

None. Finding the proper-sized push rod for the bell crank was one problem to solve; I've used a nail trimmed down to size in the past, but for this one an old drill bit was exactly the right size.


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20347178)
I've got several of both the FW and FM hubs (and prefer the FW). They never slip in any gear unless the toggle chain is too loose. Sometimes it takes some finesse to get it into low.

Yeah, that's likely the issue. I need to attend to the adjustment at the indicator.

BigChief 05-19-18 12:39 PM


Originally Posted by Cute Boy Horse (Post 20348803)
I've found the easiest way to check for a crooked frame, even before the string test, is to ride in a straight line at a decent pace and look down. If the stays are off to one side, then from your perspective on the saddle the entire frame will look the same number of degrees off. With cars they call it crabbing, it's like you're driving sideways.

I missed in his post about the 26x 1 1/4 front rim. Although, I'm still suspecting frame alignment may be involved. No big deal on a good ole steel Raleigh. A string, a 2x4, a ruler and a couple of nuts and threaded rods to check the dropouts after cold setting the stays are all you need.

Cute Boy Horse 05-19-18 12:57 PM

I shouldn't expect mismatched wheel size to mess with the handling when they're this similar, though, stranger things have happened.


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