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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

arex 04-02-16 03:40 PM

Dumb question...which side does the long end of the Raleigh spindle go...drive side or non-drive side?

Fenway 04-02-16 04:04 PM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18658339)
Dumb question...which side does the long end of the Raleigh spindle go...drive side or non-drive side?

Long end is on the drive side to pick up the extra thickness from the chain wheel.

Upgraded 'Winston' with more modern and ergonomic components now that he is my primary commuter bike. Gold lined the lugs and chaincase as well. Still a bit of a work in progress while I find a suitable water bottle holder for the clips and tidy up the aesthetics of the dynamo wiring.
http://i.imgur.com/0HMatiR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/l3wUGLT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZzbamF2.jpg

arex 04-02-16 05:36 PM

That's what makes sense, but I had something bugging me that I'd ran into the situation before and had problems.

Loose Chain 04-02-16 06:47 PM

The axle, front axle, of a Raleigh three speed is what thread? I need to chase the threads so I can service the front axle and bearings on my newly CR18 laced wheels. It looks to be very close to a M8X1.0 pitch?

arex 04-02-16 07:47 PM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18658689)
The axle, front axle, of a Raleigh three speed is what thread? I need to chase the threads so I can service the front axle and bearings on my newly CR18 laced wheels. It looks to be very close to a M8X1.0 pitch?

It's almost certainly 26tpi, unless the wheel got swapped out at some point.

Loose Chain 04-02-16 11:14 PM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18658819)
It's almost certainly 26tpi, unless the wheel got swapped out at some point.

No the hub is original. The new CR18 rim is not of course :). Both Sun CR18 weigh about the same as a single original steel rim. Very nice these Sun CR18s

? 26 tpi what ?

I need to purchase a die of the correct size.

A curiosity but apparently the brakes are self adjusting on these Raleighs?

J

BigChief 04-03-16 05:04 AM

Welcome to the wacky world of Witworth and proprietary Raleigh threads and hex sizes. All kinds of quirks on these bikes to get used to. Don't forget...when putting the front wheel on, adjustable cone goes on the left.

Loose Chain 04-03-16 08:40 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18659337)
Welcome to the wacky world of Witworth and proprietary Raleigh threads and hex sizes. All kinds of quirks on these bikes to get used to. Don't forget...when putting the front wheel on, adjustable cone goes on the left.

Well, yes it is quite wonky.

I assume this means there are no dies to be had for the love of English three speed front axles?

I think the 8mm would clean it enough that I could run the cones off enough to grease the bearings, which is the task I am wanting to accomplish. Or?

J

markk900 04-03-16 08:58 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18659671)
I think the 8mm would clean it enough that I could run the cones off enough to grease the bearings, which is the task I am wanting to accomplish. Or?
J

I think a cleaning with a thread file will do it - how bad are the threads? If you are just finding resistance it may simply be some corrosion and you might be able to use the locknut as a thread chaser.

arex 04-03-16 09:23 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 18659708)
I think a cleaning with a thread file will do it - how bad are the threads? If you are just finding resistance it may simply be some corrosion and you might be able to use the locknut as a thread chaser.

+1.

Loose Chain 04-03-16 09:35 AM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18659775)
+1.

Lock nut you say ;)? I see no stinking lock nut! Yes, the adjustable side was on the left and shall go back to the left.

So, for all the Raleighs I see with the original red R axle nuts long gone, like what did they replace the proper nuts with? Mine, fortunately is complete with the original hardware and fasteners.

And I thought Italian bikes were a PITA. These things are from a different planet than earth!

arex 04-03-16 09:42 AM

Running into an issue with remounting the drive-side crank. When the cotter is pushed in, it aligns in such a way that the base of the crank is rubbing pretty firmly on the cup. Judging by the condition of the backside of the crank (rough, chewed up), this was probably an issue from the factory. I have a reproduction crank that I've tried, and it fits fine, so I think the issue is with the crank itself...the cotter hole in the crank is further out than on the repro crank.

I've readjusted the BB repeatedly, trying to see if that affects anything (it doesn't). I'd really prefer not to use the repro crank (made in India, off of eBay), because it's not made nearly as well as the original, and the cranks themselves are about 1/2" longer, a potential issue on a Twenty.

This situation appears to be a manufacturing problem from the factory, but I have a hard time believing an issue this drastic got past QC, or past the bike shop that sold it. So, I have to assume I'm doing something wrong, but I don't know what it can be. The spindle is installed correctly, long end on the drive-side. I've tried three different sets of cotter pins with the same result. I have NOT tried installing the NDS crank yet.

Is there a fix for this, aside from replacing the crank? What am I doing wrong?

arex 04-03-16 09:45 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18659811)
Lock nut you say ;)? I see no stinking lock nut! Yes, the adjustable side was on the left and shall go back to the left.

So, for all the Raleighs I see with the original red R axle nuts long gone, like what did they replace the proper nuts with? Mine, fortunately is complete with the original hardware and fasteners.

And I thought Italian bikes were a PITA. These things are from a different planet than earth!

The Raleighs are weird, but they're consistently weird. Once you resolved to working with them, and equip yourself accordingly, they're fine.

I think the lock nut [MENTION=77155]markk900[/MENTION] refers to might be the cone lock nut, or even the cone itself.

BigChief 04-03-16 10:18 AM

I've rarely seen messed up threads on Raleigh axles. The axles and cones are case hardened and the nuts are rather soft, so usually, any thread damage is inside the nut. These may be Witworth threads and tap and die sets are available, but replacement nuts are easy to find.

Loose Chain 04-03-16 04:20 PM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18659837)
The Raleighs are weird, but they're consistently weird. Once you resolved to working with them, and equip yourself accordingly, they're fine.

I think the lock nut @markk900 refers to might be the cone lock nut, or even the cone itself.

There are no lock nuts as such. But no worries. I cleaned the threads with a small needle file and it all came aprt. Ten little balls per side. Cleaned the old gunk out and lubricated with some Phil Woods bearing grease. All back together now.

I think the thread is 5/16X26tpi British Standard. Not absolutely sure but I ordered a die in that size for my next encounter.


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 18659910)
I've rarely seen messed up threads on Raleigh axles. The axles and cones are case hardened and the nuts are rather soft, so usually, any thread damage is inside the nut. These may be Witworth threads and tap and die sets are available, but replacement nuts are easy to find.

The threads adjacent to the cones were damaged from the dropouts riding on them.

So, now with both new CR18 aluminum wheels laced on with new stainless spokes and new light weight aluminum platform pedals the little Raleigh Sports moves along most sportingly. A few adjustments yet but it seems the little critter will live for another few decades as my coffee and latte ride. Just need to find that SA light bracket but if not I will make one. Just does not look all English Racer without a proper lamp.

Fidbloke 04-04-16 06:32 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18659174)
No the hub is original. The new CR18 rim is not of course :). Both Sun CR18 weigh about the same as a single original steel rim. Very nice these Sun CR18s

? 26 tpi what ?

I need to purchase a die of the correct size.

A curiosity but apparently the brakes are self adjusting on these Raleighs?

J

It's probably 5/16 BSF. All the British Standard thread forms tend to be lumped together as 'Whitworth' as they share the same 55deg thread angle.

Salubrious 04-04-16 10:00 AM


Originally Posted by arex (Post 18659829)
Running into an issue with remounting the drive-side crank. When the cotter is pushed in, it aligns in such a way that the base of the crank is rubbing pretty firmly on the cup. Judging by the condition of the backside of the crank (rough, chewed up), this was probably an issue from the factory. I have a reproduction crank that I've tried, and it fits fine, so I think the issue is with the crank itself...the cotter hole in the crank is further out than on the repro crank.

I've readjusted the BB repeatedly, trying to see if that affects anything (it doesn't). I'd really prefer not to use the repro crank (made in India, off of eBay), because it's not made nearly as well as the original, and the cranks themselves are about 1/2" longer, a potential issue on a Twenty.

This situation appears to be a manufacturing problem from the factory, but I have a hard time believing an issue this drastic got past QC, or past the bike shop that sold it. So, I have to assume I'm doing something wrong, but I don't know what it can be. The spindle is installed correctly, long end on the drive-side. I've tried three different sets of cotter pins with the same result. I have NOT tried installing the NDS crank yet.

Is there a fix for this, aside from replacing the crank? What am I doing wrong?

I've run into this problem on the non-drive side of my '72 Superbe. IMO it is indeed a QC problem- one that would never have happened in an earlier decade. The 70s was not a kind era to the British 3-speeds! You can't adjust it out if the crank is engaging the BB hardware. Are you certain though that you have the correct BB axle?



Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18660664)
Just does not look all English Racer without a proper lamp.

FWIW dept: When I was a kid I heard this a lot in reference to British 3-speeds (with upright seating) but Master Sheldon is emphatic that such a term should not be used in this way.

arex 04-04-16 03:24 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18662510)
I've run into this problem on the non-drive side of my '72 Superbe. IMO it is indeed a QC problem- one that would never have happened in an earlier decade. The 70s was not a kind era to the British 3-speeds! You can't adjust it out if the crank is engaging the BB hardware. Are you certain though that you have the correct BB axle?

Fairly sure...it's the one that was in the BB, and the grease was like putty, so I doubt it had ever been apart before.

I'm gonna take it all apart and make sure I don't have too many balls in one of the cups or something.

Loose Chain 04-04-16 05:54 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18662510)
FWIW dept: When I was a kid I heard this a lot in reference to British 3-speeds (with upright seating) but Master Sheldon is emphatic that such a term should not be used in this way.

I am quite certain it is evident I was using humor or tongue in cheek. I am also quite certain that I worship only one God and as fine a gentleman Sheldon Brown is he is not God and I am also further certain that anyone who rode bicycles with a chicken glued to the crown of their helmet did have a sense of humor and would know I was teasing.

And, since you are so serious, where I clearly was not, if you Google English Racer the photos that will result sure look like my little bicycle and even further certain that a huge percentage of baby boomers know exactly what an English Racer is regardless of what Sheldon Brown would wish for them to call it. I know, when as a boy, I raced everything I could on mine so that would have made it my English Racer.

And thank you Mr. Sheldon for all of your wisdom, humor and years of help to all cyclists everywhere.

Edit to add:

The new aluminum CR18 wheels weigh 1lb.1oz. each. The removed original steel wheels weigh 1lb.14oz. each for a total weight saving (rotating mass) of 1lb.10oz. total.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psoj2bwhzm.jpg

The new aluminum platform pedals weigh exactly 1/2 of the original Raleigh rubber block pedals, 10oz each vs. a total of 10oz. for the aluminum pedals.

So I took 2lbs. and 4oz. from the Raleigh Sports. I removed the frame crushing kickstand a long time ago. I have never owned a bike with a kickstand, I see no purpose to them (I saved it away). Of course I added a light system, dynamo and rack and will soon order the recommended B72 saddle. But I cannot resist removing rotating mass. The bike definitely feels more sporty with the new wheels and pedals and the wheels feel stiffer. I am pleased with it. I saved the original spokes, wheels and nipples. Just a data point for anybody interested in the future.

J

BigChief 04-05-16 07:53 AM

I also still maintain an affinity to the admittedly incorrect term "English Racer". Back in the early 60s, I had a paper route, little money, but still a knowledge of what real racing bikes were. The only way a kid like me was going to have a racer was to find an old beat up Nottingham made Sports model, strip all non-essentials off and flip the bars around. To me, it was a racer. Compared to the usual, at the time, balloon tired American tanks, they were like Ferraris.
Also, We do tend to call all British sized threads Whitworth. Spanners too. But to be fair, this is how they were sold to us.

bmthom.gis 04-05-16 08:14 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18664032)
I am quite certain it is evident I was using humor or tongue in cheek. I am also quite certain that I worship only one God and as fine a gentleman Sheldon Brown is he is not God and I am also further certain that anyone who rode bicycles with a chicken glued to the crown of their helmet did have a sense of humor and would know I was teasing.

And, since you are so serious, where I clearly was not, if you Google English Racer the photos that will result sure look like my little bicycle and even further certain that a huge percentage of baby boomers know exactly what an English Racer is regardless of what Sheldon Brown would wish for them to call it. I know, when as a boy, I raced everything I could on mine so that would have made it my English Racer.

And thank you Mr. Sheldon for all of your wisdom, humor and years of help to all cyclists everywhere.

Edit to add:

The new aluminum CR18 wheels weigh 1lb.1oz. each. The removed original steel wheels weigh 1lb.14oz. each for a total weight saving (rotating mass) of 1lb.10oz. total.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psoj2bwhzm.jpg

The new aluminum platform pedals weigh exactly 1/2 of the original Raleigh rubber block pedals, 10oz each vs. a total of 10oz. for the aluminum pedals.

So I took 2lbs. and 4oz. from the Raleigh Sports. I removed the frame crushing kickstand a long time ago. I have never owned a bike with a kickstand, I see no purpose to them (I saved it away). Of course I added a light system, dynamo and rack and will soon order the recommended B72 saddle. But I cannot resist removing rotating mass. The bike definitely feels more sporty with the new wheels and pedals and the wheels feel stiffer. I am pleased with it. I saved the original spokes, wheels and nipples. Just a data point for anybody interested in the future.

J

Cool! My CR18 rims just came in the mail yesterday, and I am going to start lacing them up tomorrow.

Salubrious 04-05-16 09:54 AM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18664032)
And, since you are so serious, where I clearly was not, if you Google English Racer the photos that will result sure look like my little bicycle and even further certain that a huge percentage of baby boomers know exactly what an English Racer is regardless of what Sheldon Brown would wish for them to call it. I know, when as a boy, I raced everything I could on mine so that would have made it my English Racer.

And thank you Mr. Sheldon for all of your wisdom, humor and years of help to all cyclists everywhere.

Edit to add:

The new aluminum CR18 wheels weigh 1lb.1oz. each. The removed original steel wheels weigh 1lb.14oz. each for a total weight saving (rotating mass) of 1lb.10oz. total.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psoj2bwhzm.jpg

The new aluminum platform pedals weigh exactly 1/2 of the original Raleigh rubber block pedals, 10oz each vs. a total of 10oz. for the aluminum pedals.

So I took 2lbs. and 4oz. from the Raleigh Sports. I removed the frame crushing kickstand a long time ago. I have never owned a bike with a kickstand, I see no purpose to them (I saved it away). Of course I added a light system, dynamo and rack and will soon order the recommended B72 saddle. But I cannot resist removing rotating mass. The bike definitely feels more sporty with the new wheels and pedals and the wheels feel stiffer. I am pleased with it. I saved the original spokes, wheels and nipples. Just a data point for anybody interested in the future.

J

You mean- I gotcha on that one? :) I was kidding too.


Those don't look like the usual Kenda tires. What sort are they (BTW, I run Michelins on my Superbe, they allow 85 psi for a little quicker ride).

Velocivixen 04-05-16 10:11 AM

My Raleigh Twenty is April's cover girl....I mean Cover Photo for the Raleigh Twenty site. If you're interested, go here: http://raleightwenty.webs.com

It was a nice honor to be asked.

dweenk 04-05-16 04:35 PM


Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18660664)
So, now with both new CR18 aluminum wheels laced on with new stainless spokes and new light weight aluminum platform pedals the little Raleigh Sports moves along most sportingly. A few adjustments yet but it seems the little critter will live for another few decades as my coffee and latte ride. Just need to find that SA light bracket but if not I will make one. Just does not look all English Racer without a proper lamp.

If you are referring to a lamp bracket hung from the headset, I have a rusty one that you may have for free. PM me.

DQRider 04-05-16 05:50 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 18665676)
My Raleigh Twenty is April's cover girl....I mean Cover Photo for the Raleigh Twenty site. If you're interested, go here: http://raleightwenty.webs.com

It was a nice honor to be asked.

Beautiful job on that `20, V. I really like that shade of green - utterly English. How does it ride?

Loose Chain 04-05-16 06:13 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 18665631)
You mean- I gotcha on that one? :) I was kidding too.


Those don't look like the usual Kenda tires. What sort are they (BTW, I run Michelins on my Superbe, they allow 85 psi for a little quicker ride).

:p They are the Bell Streetster tires. Several years ago I bought a few sets for a rainy day. They are actually pretty nice. Soft rubber, folding bead and roll nicely.


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 18666912)
If you are referring to a lamp bracket hung from the headset, I have a rusty one that you may have for free. PM me.

Thank you so much for the offer but I think you are offering the part that attaches to the headset :) and what I need is the part that attaches to the light:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...s7ja9ay8c.jpeg

I borrowed that pic from the interwebs so I hope whoever does not mind. I will trade a nice set of spokes and original rims ;).

Hey, when riding your British three speed bicycles (for Sheldon ;) ) do you guys and ladies wear a helmet? I know my parents would be put in jail today for abuse but you know, I do not recall anybody wearing a helmet whilst riding upon their British three speed bicycles

J

Velocivixen 04-05-16 07:40 PM

[MENTION=429363]DQRider[/MENTION] - It originally has a nylon "collar" inside the upper head tube instead of the typical pressed cup for a headset - the bottom is normal headset. See photo:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/523/1...3b6d5125_z.jpgPlastic Headset Bushing by velocivixen, on Flickr

I followed what a lot of people on the internet said about using a "normal" headset top & bottom. It makes the steering extremely light or somewhat "twitchy", so I'm almost tempted to put it back in. The collar also helped (I forget how) when folding, which I never do. The bike was rated best small wheeled bike in the '70's by an English "Consumer Report type" magazine.

CuttersRidge 04-06-16 10:11 PM

Very unique, the claim is a 1966 women's Raleigh Sport, all chrome I think, even the chain guard.

Very nice, the price is not. They are a real specialty store though;

Budget Bicycle Center - Vintage 1966 Raleigh Ladies Sports All Chrome Dealer Model Bicycle Bike Sturmey

I've never seen this kind.

streets 04-07-16 10:07 AM


Originally Posted by CuttersRidge (Post 18670507)
Very unique, the claim is a 1966 women's Raleigh Sport, all chrome I think, even the chain guard.

Very nice, the price is not. They are a real specialty store though;

Budget Bicycle Center - Vintage 1966 Raleigh Ladies Sports All Chrome Dealer Model Bicycle Bike Sturmey

I've never seen this kind.

The all chrome plated Sports are pretty rare, particularly the ladies model it seems. I heard the same as the advert states- They were given to the Raleigh dealerships as a promotion piece. That price is pretty keen though, wow.

noglider 04-07-16 10:39 AM

[MENTION=177039]Fenway[/MENTION], that's a pretty special bike you have there. Are you running your modern lights with an old 1.8w dynamo hub? How well does that work? I wouldn't have thought it possible.


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