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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Vintage Raleigh 03-30-17 06:48 PM


Originally Posted by scale (Post 19469745)
Ah so i am not crazy. Good.

SO the right way on a rebuild is either over over under for 3x or over over over under for 4x i assume? This is my second wheelset for these old 3 speeds and i have another set im going to do after this. They are fun to build and quite cheap as far as learning goes.

We're all a little crazy.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4Fc67yQsPqQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BigChief 03-31-17 04:02 AM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 19471938)
I've been working on my step-thru Sprite this beautiful day. The 3 speed side of the S5 hub worked like a champ with the trigger shifter on the bar (an add-on). The left side of the hub was not reliable at all. It was connected to the original downtube shifter that was plastic and sloppy and I feared it would break (the 3 speed side was already broken).


So I pulled a newer trigger shifter from my stash and installed on the left side of the bars. That required a new cable and housing. I set it up, adjusted the cable, and took it for a ride - everything worked. Now I only need to clean and lube it.

The top tube shifters didn't work for me either. Besides, us 3 speeders had indexed shifting from the handlebars since 1938 and they seemed to be a step backwards to me.
I had a pro make the straps for me. He repairs and makes custom leather tack for equestrians. It did require some explanation as to why I would want to repair such a piece of junk. These used to be so common. It seems the vast majority of them broke and were thrown away over the years.
How do you like the Sprite? I'm in love with the S5 hub.

dweenk 03-31-17 09:43 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19479618)
The top tube shifters didn't work for me either. Besides, us 3 speeders had indexed shifting from the handlebars since 1938 and they seemed to be a step backwards to me.
I had a pro make the straps for me. He repairs and makes custom leather tack for equestrians. It did require some explanation as to why I would want to repair such a piece of junk. These used to be so common. It seems the vast majority of them broke and were thrown away over the years.
How do you like the Sprite? I'm in love with the S5 hub.

I like the Sprite; or specifically, I like the S5 hub. I'm thinking about mounting a shifter on the left side of a nearly pristine Sports (large men's frame) that I have so I can swap the rear wheel back and forth.

I have a lead on a crappy Sprite from the friend of a friend. It has been sitting outside for years, but if it is the S5 version, it may be worth checking out.

adventurepdx 03-31-17 12:13 PM

Just got this question in from someone. All I have ever heard are stories regarding destroying AW hubs if one put too big of a rear cog on, but this other gentleman was wondering about specific technical info. Anyone have more insight?

"Question about larger cogs on an SA-AW 3-speed. I've heard rumor about cogs larger than 23 teeth cause of damage to the innards... but I've never seen any technical literature that supports this. Where do you come by this? Is it Sheldons opinion or are there others that have experienced it?? Just wondering. "

dweenk 03-31-17 12:47 PM

I don't know from personal experience - I've put a 22 tooth cog on the rear, as have a few other members of the forum as i recall. Can you provide details?

Salubrious 03-31-17 01:11 PM

Its possible to overload the hub with larger cogs. A lot depends on the rider though! I certainly would not set up a tandem that way.

BigChief 04-01-17 04:17 AM

I while back on this thread I saw pictures of a damaged driver and cog. The splines were all chewed up. Pretty sure this was a 3/32" 23T cog. I suspect that this was caused more by the use of a thinner 3/32" cog than the lower value of the gearing. With the older 48T chainwheels, I have been using those 22T 1/8" chromed Sturmey Archer coaster brake cogs for years and many miles without any spline damage. Just a guess, but I'll say stick to 1/8" cogs and you should be fine.

rhm 04-01-17 06:25 AM


Originally Posted by scale (Post 19472562)
My next wheelset will be the crazy weird dynamo hub on the front. I have heard those are hard since they dont have eyelets on the hub.....just little slots that hold the spokes by tension.

im not looking forward to that one.

Yes, they are tricky. You can avoid a lot of headache by being extra careful, though.

For example, be absolutely certain you don't confuse the right side spokes with the left side ones. They will be different lengths, but only by a little, and it's easy to get confused.

Build the dynamo side first, both leading and trailing spokes, but (obviously) don't tension them yet. Then build the small flange one hole at a time; that is, do the leading spoke from a given eye-shaped hole, and then do the trailing one. If you try to do all eight leading spokes first, and then all eight trailing spokes, you'll have spoke heads dropping out of the hub while you're not looking.

It's kinda fun, really, you just have to use a different method than usual.

BigChief 04-01-17 06:31 AM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 19480228)
I like the Sprite; or specifically, I like the S5 hub. I'm thinking about mounting a shifter on the left side of a nearly pristine Sports (large men's frame) that I have so I can swap the rear wheel back and forth.

I have a lead on a crappy Sprite from the friend of a friend. It has been sitting outside for years, but if it is the S5 version, it may be worth checking out.

I like original bikes as much as anybody but...If I found a good buy on a S5 equipped wreck or stepthrough, I wouldn't think twice about swapping wheels or hub guts into a good Sports. The whole reason I gear down AW hubs is that I find that a hub with a normal cruising gear, a medium underdrive and an overdrive that I never use is nowhere near as useful as one with a cruising gear, medium under drive and granny. The S5 gives you 3 well spaced, very useful gears and a granny if you engage the bell crank. Last year I had a chance to ride my Sprite in hilly country and I found it handy to ride with the bell crank engaged. I would leave the hub in 2nd, get as far up the hill as I could and snick the right shifter into the granny 1st and crest the hill. But most of the time, I'm totally happy with the medium ratio spread of the unengaged bell crank. I found no reason the change the original 18T cog. I think it's perfect. Foe me at least.

rhm 04-01-17 06:34 AM

So, three-speed hub fans, here's a question for you!

What would you do with a 1958 SW hub?

I just happen to have one. No indicator chain, though. I opened it up, just to see what the fuss is about, and it kinda blew my mind, such a different mechanism, I almost wanted to see how it works. But i got over that. I have enough trouble keeping my AW-FW-5S hubs happy, and they all have interchangeable parts. The SW appears to have the same axle nuts and the same cones, but beyond that, all different.

So, anyway, what would you do with a SW hub?

nlerner 04-01-17 06:42 AM

^ The last one I had I sent to a BFer for the cost of shipping.

Velocivixen 04-01-17 08:31 AM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 19481950)
So, three-speed hub fans, here's a question for you!

What would you do with a 1958 SW hub?

I just happen to have one. No indicator chain, though. I opened it up, just to see what the fuss is about, and it kinda blew my mind, such a different mechanism, I almost wanted to see how it works. But i got over that. I have enough trouble keeping my AW-FW-5S hubs happy, and they all have interchangeable parts. The SW appears to have the same axle nuts and the same cones, but beyond that, all different.

So, anyway, what would you do with a SW hub?

Oh, Oh! Please send it to me so I can take it apart. This just made my heart skip a beat. I've only worked on the AW's & some with dynohub. I promise I would be very nice to it. Ultrasonically bathe it, lube with Phil Wood Tenacious Oil, and thoughtfully reassemble and mail it back to you in a bow. :thumb::love:

Velocivixen 04-01-17 08:41 AM

I have a question or two. Last spring I bought an all original, green Raleigh Twenty with the front G6 dynohub. The chrome is very good, etc.. It was a mess, cosmetically thought from a grunge factor.
So I dove in, took it apart, spent hours & days cleaning, polishing, waxing, removing rust. Replaced cables/housings/pads, new tires, repacked all bearings, trued wheels....you know the deal. All I had to do was reinstall the rear fender & Plescher rack and I'd be done. By that time I was on R20 overload, and just set it aside. It's been months....fenders are finicky and I don't enjoy installing them.

How do I get my mojo back for this project? I've worked on other projects since then, but this little gem just sits there...

Separate question: the anti rotation washers on the bike are worn down & I can easily get some from the co-op. How important is it that these washers are robust? Specifically, the raised section that keeps the axle from rotation has smoothed down along their edges as well as thinned down.
Thanks

JohnDThompson 04-01-17 12:30 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 19481950)
I just happen to have one. No indicator chain, though. I opened it up, just to see what the fuss is about, and it kinda blew my mind, such a different mechanism, I almost wanted to see how it works. But i got over that. I have enough trouble keeping my AW-FW-5S hubs happy, and they all have interchangeable parts. The SW appears to have the same axle nuts and the same cones, but beyond that, all different.

So, anyway, what would you do with a SW hub?

Build it into a wheel and "rig for silent running."

I have several of these hubs, only one of which is built into a wheel. My intent was to use it on the ABCE downhill "pastry joust" in conjunction with an oil-lubricated 1948 Dynohub to see if I could be the first Dynohub-equipped bike to win the joust. But a shoulder injury prevented me from attending that year, and schedule conflicts in subsequent years has meant it's been several years since I managed to get to the ABCE event.

That said, an SW hub can work well most of the time. It has slightly wider range than the AW (lower low, and higher high), and is pretty much dead-silent in operation. They have fewer parts than the AW hubs and the lack of fiddly pawl springs makes them super-easy to overhaul. The biggest problems I've encountered are temperature related: whan it gets colder than about 40F the springless pawls often fail to engage quickly, meaning you might pedal one or more full revolutions before the pawls finally catch and engage the drive train. But in hot summer weather they can be just dandy.

You mention you are missing the indicator chain. These come in two versions, one of which is compatible with the AW indicator rod, and another which uses a two-piece indicator rod. I have a number of extra two-piece rods here if that's what you need. Let me know, and we can work something out.

SirMike1983 04-01-17 01:37 PM

Issues with cogs too large:
-yes, they cause increased strain on the hub, but it also depends on if you're putting down a lot of force and thrashing/standing on it. If you develop a smooth pattern of pedaling and putting load into the hub, it is generally fine.

-I have seen two different cogs tear the splined driver. Both were 3/32 and both were 24 tooth or larger. My guess is that there was excessive play in the fit of the cog splines to the driver. That play probably wore the cog splines down a bit, then they tore under load. A 1/8 might be safer by having more meat on the cog. The most important factor is a good fit of cog spline to driver without excessive play. It should drop onto the driver smoothly and easily, but not be excessively loose in terms of turning or twisting once the spacers and clip are back on the driver.

-SW hubs: I don't run them. I've had a couple and dumped both off the bikes. You can indeed build a very nice, reliable SW hub if you take the best parts you can find from several hubs or a parts bin, and hand fit everything together. Then you get to test it, and you'll want to test it under load. Slipping pawls are a good way to bust up your legs if you're pressing up a hill. The AW is plentiful and reliable enough so that I opt for those over the SW. The SW is something to tinker with, but I just opt for the AW/FW.

-S5 shifters: the early (plastic) S5 shifters are not good. They love to break off or just not work very well. The larger "muscle car" type shifters are a bit better, but they take getting used to. It's not as "automatic" to drop into gear as the 3-speed shifter. The most ergonomic fix is a nice friction shifter fitted to the bell crank (you only need loose vs tight on that) and a standard 3-speed shifter on the handle bars for the indicator chain/clutch side. If I had to build a shifter for the S5 today, I'd probably opt for a dual stick top-tube design but with peg holes and "indexing" on the drive side like a quadrant. That way you get the top-tube look and function, but with more "automatic" dropping into gear than the friction-style the Sprite came with.

dweenk 04-01-17 02:06 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19482153)
I have a question or two. Last spring I bought an all original, green Raleigh Twenty with the front G6 dynohub. The chrome is very good, etc.. It was a mess, cosmetically thought from a grunge factor.
So I dove in, took it apart, spent hours & days cleaning, polishing, waxing, removing rust. Replaced cables/housings/pads, new tires, repacked all bearings, trued wheels....you know the deal. All I had to do was reinstall the rear fender & Plescher rack and I'd be done. By that time I was on R20 overload, and just set it aside. It's been months....fenders are finicky and I don't enjoy installing them.

How do I get my mojo back for this project? I've worked on other projects since then, but this little gem just sits there...

Separate question: the anti rotation washers on the bike are worn down & I can easily get some from the co-op. How important is it that these washers are robust? Specifically, the raised section that keeps the axle from rotation has smoothed down along their edges as well as thinned down.
Thanks

This is only a guess, but I would think that the NR washer would be made of harder steel than the rear axle slot. If that is correct, rounded NR shoulders could wear the edges of the slot. In other words - if you have access to good NR washers, get them.

BigChief 04-02-17 01:05 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19482153)
I have a question or two. Last spring I bought an all original, green Raleigh Twenty with the front G6 dynohub. The chrome is very good, etc.. It was a mess, cosmetically thought from a grunge factor.
So I dove in, took it apart, spent hours & days cleaning, polishing, waxing, removing rust. Replaced cables/housings/pads, new tires, repacked all bearings, trued wheels....you know the deal. All I had to do was reinstall the rear fender & Plescher rack and I'd be done. By that time I was on R20 overload, and just set it aside. It's been months....fenders are finicky and I don't enjoy installing them.

How do I get my mojo back for this project? I've worked on other projects since then, but this little gem just sits there...

Separate question: the anti rotation washers on the bike are worn down & I can easily get some from the co-op. How important is it that these washers are robust? Specifically, the raised section that keeps the axle from rotation has smoothed down along their edges as well as thinned down.
Thanks

I suppose a good feature of a hobby that's not needed for paying the bills is the ability to put it down for a while or quit entirely if you become bored with it. I hope the spring weather will inspire a renewed interest in 3 speeds for you. I very much enjoyed your contributions here. I think I can speak for all of us here by saying we missed you over these past months and hope you return with more projects.

BigChief 04-02-17 01:18 AM

Oh, and about the anti rotation washers. If they're scruffy at all, I change them. Ever notice there's two types? I find it handy to have both types available. One has a large wall that extends across the full diameter of the washer and the other has a very short wall next to the center hole that allows for more chain adjustment. Using the short walled washers can sometimes save you from having to use a half link when you run out of room in the dropout.

Velocivixen 04-02-17 08:56 AM

[MENTION=398265]BigChief[/MENTION] - Thanks for the info and feedback. I've got projects to share, but don't always post because they're not a lot different from others I've done. But I know we all adore lots and lots of photos.

In Portland there is one particular co-op called City Bikes Coop. They have literally drawers and buckets full of SA parts. What I learned from someone who used to own the place before it became a coop is that it was a bike shop which specifically focused on internally geared 3-speeds! Apparently beck then more folks were riding bikes with SA hubs and this was the shop who could fix them. I believe in the '60's & '70's. Anyway if I require a part, no matter how esoteric, they will have a drawer dedicated to it!
I have noticed the different type of AR washers. The ones on this bike are very smoothed down and I highly doubt that under load they would work. I can always "borrow" some off one of the unused hubs I have languishing....I overhaul them then put them in plastic with a note saying when it was overhauled.

thumpism 04-02-17 06:52 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Went to the co-op for a front derailleur and a handlebar suitable for a three-speed and saw this out front. It had just arrived and the guy named a price ridiculously cheap for a Tourist. It's complete but the rims are rusty, 22" frame and hub date of '80. No room for it, no time for it and I don't particularly like these bikes, so of course I now have another one. I may not keep it for long, especially if the bride finds out it's here.

Attachment 558090

BigChief 04-03-17 03:39 AM

I think that's an excellent find, but I'm very fond of these bikes. A 22" frame is rare. I'm lucky to be tall enough to ride a 24" because they seem to always be tall frames. Until now. There's no way around the expense of replacing those Westwoods, but this bike looks to be worth it.

BigChief 04-03-17 07:59 AM

I was checking the old Raleigh catalogs online. I can't find any reference to gents DL-1s in 22" frame size. I know they were available in the UK, but from what I can tell, they were only available in the US in 24". This bike would be a real treasure to someone who had their hart set on a traditional rod brake roadster but wasn't tall enough for the 24".
http://www.bulgier.net/pics/bike/Cat...39;Tourist.jpg

nlerner 04-03-17 05:20 PM

Kind of an interesting 23" Superbe on Boston's CL for $125:

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/bik/6072926422.html

Don't think that rear hub is original!

gster 04-03-17 05:50 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19482153)
I have a question or two. Last spring I bought an all original, green Raleigh Twenty with the front G6 dynohub. The chrome is very good, etc.. It was a mess, cosmetically thought from a grunge factor.
So I dove in, took it apart, spent hours & days cleaning, polishing, waxing, removing rust. Replaced cables/housings/pads, new tires, repacked all bearings, trued wheels....you know the deal. All I had to do was reinstall the rear fender & Plescher rack and I'd be done. By that time I was on R20 overload, and just set it aside. It's been months....fenders are finicky and I don't enjoy installing them.

How do I get my mojo back for this project? I've worked on other projects since then, but this little gem just sits there...

Separate question: the anti rotation washers on the bike are worn down & I can easily get some from the co-op. How important is it that these washers are robust? Specifically, the raised section that keeps the axle from rotation has smoothed down along their edges as well as thinned down.
Thanks

Many projects can linger, I have several. The winter months can be tough on one's motivation.
There will be growth in the spring and all will be fine in the garden.

SirMike1983 04-03-17 08:46 PM

I have a 1978 DL-1 in the smaller frame size - great bike. Bought it for $100 some years back. Some of the plastic bits have had to be replaced over the years. Good bike though. Don't balk at the smaller size when it comes up - the 24 inch is more common. Buy the first good small frame that comes across at a reasonable price if you're looking for one. You may have to wait awhile before you see another for sale.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lhF-1xyCB...828_181112.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8ZzE43Z_T...828_170839.jpg

Velocivixen 04-03-17 09:06 PM

[MENTION=301310]gster[/MENTION] - yes, regardless of how harsh the Winter, Spring guarantees a fresh start and renewal.
[MENTION=38859]SirMike1983[/MENTION] - very nice bike. Quite "stately".

BigChief 04-03-17 10:46 PM

Ah, I didn't look far enough. The gents 22" DL-1 first appears in the 1977 US catalog. So after many years of shipping only 24" gents frames to America, they reintroduced the 22" in the last 3 years of production. That explains their rarity.
Great looking Roadster @SirMike

thumpism 04-04-17 06:29 AM

Why does anyone even bother to advertise a bike for sale for ten dollars? Regardless, a good deal for somebody and it looks like a 23" frame.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/6059296948.html

Raleigh Glider Bike - $10

https://images.craigslist.org/00v0v_...I_1200x900.jpg

Needs work done to it but could be a fun project or useful to someone for parts. Asking $10 or best offer

thumpism 04-04-17 06:36 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19485436)
I think that's an excellent find, but I'm very fond of these bikes. A 22" frame is rare. I'm lucky to be tall enough to ride a 24" because they seem to always be tall frames. Until now. There's no way around the expense of replacing those Westwoods, but this bike looks to be worth it.

The extremely crusty tires are holding air but I have not done anything else to it. Lube will be next. No hurry. I'm also fortunate to fit a 24" Tourist and the ones that have passed through my hands before were all that size, but I've never been strongly tempted to keep one of them. We'll see how this one does.

I figure the rusty rims are a plus if they help improve the braking.

Mickey2 04-04-17 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 19488070)
I figure the rusty rims are a plus if they help improve the braking.

LOL, not really, the rims usually polish up well and if you use a waxy alternative like Quick Glow it lasts a couple of months. I have found Jagwire blocks performs well on steel rims, I can't find the brick red ones around here. I would love to find an old ladies Raleigh like that, especially at that price. I would bother to advertise one too. My favorite bike was an old bike I fixed up, lots of work but it was well worth it. I would happily give someone the same chance. Sometimes adds like these saves a a nice old bike from going on the dump. I know there are people out there looking for a vintage bike like that ;- )


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