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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

Small cog 12-20-23 10:38 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23105894)
I've tried various permutations of drop bars on my bikes, but none ever measured up to North Road bars. I guess there are people who do well with certain types of drop bars. I don't doubt the bars may be comfortable for them, but I've never had much luck with drop bars, especially compared to North Road or similar tourist bars.

My New Hudson Silver Arrow has North Roads, my Raleigh Lenton has North Roads, and my Clubman has Nitto swept back bars. They're all great bars and very comfortable. The Nittos are also very light in weight compared to traditional steel bars.

The Carlton Ten I was given in something of a state last summer had pullback bars fitted by the previous owner which I swapped for some lighter SR ones, I found them very comfortable but not so good for hills of which there are many around here so have swapped them for some SR riser bars the same as my Lenton has fitted, it also has a three speed at this point.

I had to look up the Super Tourer as we never had that model here and what a nice bike and well suited for conversion to hub gears.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fab422e3da.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ec68bcdfad.jpg

Small cog 12-28-23 12:45 AM

Does anyone have a Humber Clipper in the original red or some good photos of one? I have recently picked up a frameset with some serious patina and plan to respray it red and would like to get it something like original if not it will be the same colour as the above Carlton. I have looked at all of the photos on-line which are mostly from brochures but none are good enough to get an idea of what I should go for.

1989Pre 12-28-23 06:21 AM


Originally Posted by Small cog (Post 23112549)
Does anyone have a Humber Clipper in the original red or some good photos of one? I have recently picked up a frameset with some serious patina and plan to respray it red and would like to get it something like original if not it will be the same colour as the above Carlton. I have looked at all of the photos on-line which are mostly from brochures but none are good enough to get an idea of what I should go for.

Using the Raleigh paint code for the Carmine Red, CF24, might be helpful if you can find a cross-reference. Anyway, it appears that the Carmine was the same for Raleigh Lenton, Rudge Pathfinder and Humber Clipper, so maybe focus on finding examples of Lenton Sports in the Carmine. There were actually three reds used on the clipper, at various times. In it's inaugural year, 1948, there was a Bright Red. In 1953, a Lustre Carmine was introduced. By 1955, that had become a Flambuoyant "Royal" Carmine. Any good frame painter in Britain should get you close; Mercian, Mario Vaz, Allen Higgs, Blue Whippet paintwork, Kevin Winter or
Arthur Caygill Cycles of Richmond.

Cyclespanner 12-28-23 06:43 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 23112599)
Using the Raleigh paint code for the Carmine Red, CF24, might be helpful if you can find a cross-reference. Anyway, it appears that the Carmine was the same for Raleigh Lenton, Rudge Pathfinder and Humber Clipper, so maybe focus on finding examples of Lenton Sports in the Carmine.

Carmine red was used on a wide range of Raleigh and Raleigh based cycles, almost to the end.
The 1965 'Riviera' I bought recently is in that colour and hasn't faded.
Like all red pigments, it doesn't take kindly to UV light and fades badly..
The red was a clear lacquer over a gold base coat. One of the most glorious paint finishes ever contrived.
Whoever ran Raleigh's paint shop knew what they were doing.

Originally I believe it was called 'Royal Red' and used along side a blue and a gold, to celebrate the Coronation of QEII.

1989Pre 12-28-23 07:00 AM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23112606)
Carmine red was used on a wide range of Raleigh and Raleigh based cycles, almost to the end.
The 1965 'Riviera' I bought recently is in that colour and hasn't faded.
Like all red pigments, it doesn't take kindly to UV light and fades badly..
The red was a clear lacquer over a gold base coat. One of the most glorious paint finishes ever contrived.
Whoever ran Raleigh's paint shop knew what they were doing.

Originally I believe it was called 'Royal Red' and used along side a blue and a gold, to celebrate the Coronation of QEII.

Is the Carmine flam the paint used on the early-60's Lenton Grand Prix, or is this the Burgundy?
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f7da74957b.jpg

Cyclespanner 12-28-23 07:06 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 23112612)
Is the Carmine flam the paint used on the early-60's Lenton Grand Prix, or is this the Burgundy?
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f7da74957b.jpg

That looks to be Carmine Red to me.
Photographs on screen are notoriously difficult due to each device having its own colour balance; but yep, I'll stick with the Carmine on that one.

zookster 12-29-23 01:20 AM


Originally Posted by Small cog (Post 23112549)
Does anyone have a Humber Clipper in the original red or some good photos of one? I have recently picked up a frameset with some serious patina and plan to respray it red and would like to get it something like original if not it will be the same colour as the above Carlton. I have looked at all of the photos on-line which are mostly from brochures but none are good enough to get an idea of what I should go for.

The "Velocipedium" channel on YouTube has featured several bikes that are Carmine Red. Might be worth a look.

Velocipedium Channel

Cyclespanner 12-29-23 04:00 AM


Originally Posted by zookster (Post 23113428)
The "Velocipedium" channel on YouTube has featured several bikes that are Carmine Red. Might be worth a look.

Velocipedium Channel

Yes, I regularly watch and enjoy Rowan de Bonairs 'Velocipedium' YT channel which is his quirky take on his lifelong hobby. Full of ditties worth listening to, frequently about Brit 3 speeds and their practical 'real world; maintenance.

erileykc 12-29-23 07:16 AM

What's with the pretend fenders? :rolleyes:


Originally Posted by Small cog (Post 23105411)
I rather like the Pashley Morgan 3 but not the modern components, bah humbug! and asked them if they would sell me a frameset so I could build it up with vintage SA components but the answer was no.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f0d109e078.jpg


Small cog 12-29-23 07:18 AM


Originally Posted by erileykc (Post 23113512)
What's with the pretend fenders? :rolleyes:

How about a pretender fender? I think we have invented a new cycling term.

Cyclespanner 12-29-23 07:43 AM

What has a bicycle got to do with the redoubtable Morgan 3 wheeler's?
£1,300 is WAY beyond what I'd be prepared to pay for ANY bicycle.
OK, I can appreciate tech, but in the end a bicycle of any sort is just that.
EDIT
Me driving a 1928 Morgan 3 wheeler..

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ff829e6ca5.jpg
A proper car!

SirMike1983 12-29-23 09:18 AM

Two-stage colors were in vogue after WWII. They applied primer, then aluminum base coat, and finished with a translucent top coat. The coloring in the top coat allowed the aluminum to shine through the tinting, hence the unique look of these paints. Both Schwinn and Raleigh three speeds show up in these colors in the 1940s-60s. The top coats can deteriorate, some colors more so than others. The reds in particular tend to deteriorate, but you'll see it with some of the greens and blues as well.

With a robust paint like black, I like to clean and then polish using a good quality automotive type polish. But I don't polish the two-stage paints (too fragile). I clean them only with water and a very small amount of dish soap. Even then, I still check the cleaning rag for signs the top coat paint is coming off.

nlerner 12-29-23 10:27 AM

Here's a chart from the 1950s.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b314581f2b.jpg

gster 12-31-23 02:55 PM


Originally Posted by Small cog (Post 23112549)
Does anyone have a Humber Clipper in the original red or some good photos of one? I have recently picked up a frameset with some serious patina and plan to respray it red and would like to get it something like original if not it will be the same colour as the above Carlton. I have looked at all of the photos on-line which are mostly from brochures but none are good enough to get an idea of what I should go for.

I've got this one from the 50's with decent paint.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e87ceec8f7.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8db7657a4c.jpg

Cyclespanner 12-31-23 05:08 PM

Found this to be an interesting, absorbing place to be.
I'd like to share my best wishes with my fellow classic cyclists.
HAPPY NEW YEAR to you all.

Small cog 12-31-23 10:11 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 23115590)


That's the one, thank you.

gster 12-31-23 10:50 PM


Originally Posted by Small cog (Post 23115911)
That's the one, thank you.

You are welcome.
The paint under the clips is a bit more vibrant.
I'm out of town but will take some better shots when I return.

clubman 01-01-24 08:10 AM

Small cog That was called Carmine Red and appears to have a gold under coat. Really pretty paint in the sun.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...445660002a.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bf428e11ad.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...86d7cff680.jpg

Ged117 01-01-24 08:25 AM

My old 1950 Superbe was 'Raleigh Green', but my wife's old '56 Sports looks to be 'Brilliant Green'

I kind of miss these two.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7e01e526_h.jpg20210429_175548

Cyclespanner 01-01-24 08:34 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 23116023)

Yup, I agree; just as I said #27694

markk900 01-01-24 10:50 AM

clubman : did the “Canadian” come with single speed and optional 3 speed; or is yours a conversion? I note the brazed on fitting for a pulley.

It’s a stunning bike to be sure! The only “Canadian” I had seen in person was much duller, but I see now it was probably a matter of bringing back the shine (without killing the top coat as per SirMike1983 )

barnfind 01-04-24 02:20 AM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23097729)
Being twin pivot they are halfway between side and center-pulls.
Certainly chunky things. As I get familiar with the bike I'll post my impressions.

Edit:
What is nice about this bike is the 'Carmine Red' usually fades badly. Not here, which indicates it's been dry stored and out of the Sun's UV. Barely a ding anywhere.
The 'Anniversary' head badge dates it to between 1965/1968. The hub will tell.
Another survivor.
I understand they were issued in Green, Red, Blue and Gold.

EDIT.
6.5hr trip to collect this bike!
It's been years since I drove for that long into unfamiliar territory.
It's plain to me that this country can't afford the road network it already has; even the major routs have massive pot holes now, it's appalling and never used to be this way.

Finding ones way around provincial ancient market towns which have zero signage to help is no joke.
Find someone on foot to ask directions revealed that I was in a district with a lot of Eastern European immigrants with no language skills and are a lot further from home than me and just as lost!

Back to my purchase.... the big highlight is photographs on ebay are very complimentary.
In the flesh the bike is a bit crusty but what corrosion there is, is very superficial.
Looking at the worn out pedals and the cheap tyres, the bike has obviously had been well used, yet there's barely a scratch to be found.

The paint and chrome just needs a little tlc.
A full re-commission strip-down and lube job is required as it hasn't been used for a long time.

Here's the breaker....it's a 23inch frame and probably too big for me!
Never occurred to me to ask. Doh!

EDIT: Both hubs stamped June 1965

That looks like a really nice find. It just figures that someone who needs a smaller bike finds a 23" and someone like me who needs one only seems to find the smallest models.
In my area it seems that most of the bright color models are small frames, I've had three very small, 19" and 20" Robin Hood, Hercules, and Dunelt branded models in that same red, plus one silver Raleigh in a tiny 19" size, (all men's models despite the brochure not listing such frame sizes here?).
That red is hit of miss here, I either find them looking like they were stored new in a box for 60 years or they're faded to some odd shade of orange. (I have a Raleigh Super Course in a 25" frame which I bought new in 1977 in bright red metallic. At first the top surfaces faded to a lighter shade of red, then eventually the whole bike turned orange, losing any hint of metallic it once had. Now the top surfaces have turned white, exposing the base coat color. Its gotten so bad that a repaint will be inevitable now, the nest step is likely bare metal.
What's worse yet is that the bike was never stored outdoors, it lived in my garage since 1988, and in my spare bedroom back in the day. The only sun it saw was while riding.
(The Huret multito that I put on when I first bought it now reads 9,910 miles for the second time around so its seen a fair bit of sunshine over the years while in use)

For some reason though most red and silver models I've found were always small frames, green and brown models are always 21", and black bikes have all been 23" models when it comes to the typical 3 speed Sports models.

dirtman 01-04-24 04:12 AM

I've got a tiny men's frame Robin Hood in bright red or Crimson here somewhere too. I think it measures taller than it appears or rides for some reason but the top tube and down tube are only a finger's width apart or so where they meet. Most bikes in that color do seem to be pretty badly faded. The only color that seems to hold well is black, plus its easier to touch up.
I put it aside about four years ago because it needs a new back rim. The 40hp Endrick rim is rusted to the point its likely no longer safe. I had found one but used it on another bike along the way. 32/40 chrome rims are in short supply here lately for some reason, it seems no one saved any, and those I do find are rusted or worn beyond use.
It hasn't been high on my list since its way too small for me to ride, and I've got several good loaners already that I've gone through.
I think the Robin Hood is from around 1964-65 or so but I can't say for sure because the rear wheel that it came with was a Perry Coaster brake even though the bike still had a 3 speed shifter on the bars and a cable guide wheel on the frame.

Cyclespanner 01-04-24 04:30 AM

Odd, I measured (for the first time) the Tensor' 3 speed I've been riding for years and found it to be 23'' and found that to be an easy ride. The 'Chiltern' I bought at the end of the summer is 22'', yet feels bigger.

Not sure if the Raleigh metalics were laid over their traditional black 'Bonderised' undercoat, but it looks that way on my Carmine 'Riviera'. Though the paint on the frame is well preserved, the mudguards/fenders and chainguard are finished in a solid red...possibly re-painted at some point.

Found a 1965 'Halfords' catalogue page which says the 'Riviera' was new for that year. Frame options; 21''/23'', ladies came in 19.5''/21''. Colour options: Electric Blue, Royal Tan (whatever that was), Carmine and Bronze Green.

I may be a minority of one here, but always regarded the green Raleigh stuck with for years was drab. No doubt when the green was introduced, most cycles were black, so in that, the Raleigh's would have 'stood out'.

EDIT:
In my time I had the privilege to befriend two chaps, originally Polish.
Both had an interesting story to tell. They both escaped the German tyranny (WW2) by walking and cycling from Poland to Italy and joined the Allied forces there, yet they never met.
For most of the journey, after their tyres fell to bits, they continued on bare rims. Amazing.

markk900 01-04-24 07:23 AM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23118915)
Not sure if the Raleigh metalics were laid over their traditional black 'Bonderised' undercoat, but it looks that way on my Carmine 'Riviera'.

My 49 Humber, though not metallic, was definitely a colour coat (blue) over a pretty glossy black under layer. No wonder the paint would hardly stay on! It’s almost like they painted them all black to start and added colour to order 😄

gster 01-04-24 07:40 AM

Oddball Raleigh Three Speeds from 1977.
https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=206109112495792

Cyclespanner 01-04-24 07:49 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 23118966)
My 49 Humber, though not metallic, was definitely a colour coat (blue) over a pretty glossy black under layer. No wonder the paint would hardly stay on! It’s almost like they painted them all black to start and added colour to order 😄

Sheldon Brown calls 'Bonderizing' a matte rubber coating.
I recently read it's proper name in one of my books about Raleigh, but can't remember...will look it up later.
EDIT: Bonderizing = is a coating of Copper Phosphate.

Road Fan 01-04-24 08:43 AM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 23118914)
I've got a tiny men's frame Robin Hood in bright red or Crimson here somewhere too. I think it measures taller than it appears or rides for some reason but the top tube and down tube are only a finger's width apart or so where they meet. Most bikes in that color do seem to be pretty badly faded. The only color that seems to hold well is black, plus its easier to touch up.
I put it aside about four years ago because it needs a new back rim. The 40hp Endrick rim is rusted to the point its likely no longer safe. I had found one but used it on another bike along the way. 32/40 chrome rims are in short supply here lately for some reason, it seems no one saved any, and those I do find are rusted or worn beyond use.
It hasn't been high on my list since its way too small for me to ride, and I've got several good loaners already that I've gone through.
I think the Robin Hood is from around 1964-65 or so but I can't say for sure because the rear wheel that it came with was a Perry Coaster brake even though the bike still had a 3 speed shifter on the bars and a cable guide wheel on the frame.

I agree about the 40/32 rim sets, but it might be better to look for an individual wheel or at least a wheel set. It seems that later 3-speeds used 32/32 or 36/36 spokings. Hubs can be overhauled, including Sturmey-Archers. At the same time, for my 1952 Rudge I found a 27 x 1 ¼ Wolber Modelle 58 aluminum rim in 40 holes and a matching (except for Super Champion labelling) 32 hole one, separately located and bought. So usable, and perhaps superior, rims are out there, though I don't know much about Endricks, specifically. My Rudge was originally equipped with Dunlop Special Lightweight in chromed steel, running 27 x 1 ¼. For tires I bought a set of Pasela wire bead TG (I think that's the model). The equipped John Bull tires were in terrible condition.

I was seeking a transition to aluminum rims anyway, so this was a win on multiple levels. Also scored the correct-length spokes in Sapim Racer, with the suitable flange/j-bend washers.

cjefferds 01-04-24 01:34 PM


Originally Posted by barnfind (Post 23118899)
That looks like a really nice find. It just figures that someone who needs a smaller bike finds a 23" and someone like me who needs one only seems to find the smallest models.
In my area it seems that most of the bright color models are small frames, I've had three very small, 19" and 20" Robin Hood, Hercules, and Dunelt branded models in that same red, plus one silver Raleigh in a tiny 19" size, (all men's models despite the brochure not listing such frame sizes here?).
That red is hit of miss here, I either find them looking like they were stored new in a box for 60 years or they're faded to some odd shade of orange. (I have a Raleigh Super Course in a 25" frame which I bought new in 1977 in bright red metallic. At first the top surfaces faded to a lighter shade of red, then eventually the whole bike turned orange, losing any hint of metallic it once had. Now the top surfaces have turned white, exposing the base coat color. Its gotten so bad that a repaint will be inevitable now, the nest step is likely bare metal.
What's worse yet is that the bike was never stored outdoors, it lived in my garage since 1988, and in my spare bedroom back in the day. The only sun it saw was while riding.
(The Huret multito that I put on when I first bought it now reads 9,910 miles for the second time around so its seen a fair bit of sunshine over the years while in use)

For some reason though most red and silver models I've found were always small frames, green and brown models are always 21", and black bikes have all been 23" models when it comes to the typical 3 speed Sports models.

Veering somewhat off topic here but I also own a late 70s Super Course with similar paint issues. I found the frame in this condition for $20 and I am going to leave as is. There is also some darker red paint on mine which I am at a loss to explain. Almost like someone tried to spray it and later removed most of it. In any case I love it!
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...361f141fe.jpeg

vintagebicycle 01-04-24 10:20 PM

I was originally going to build this CL find as a three speed.
The plan was to build up a set of 700c rims and use a set of fenders painted to match to complete the look.
At first I thought about doing it over in original red, but figured black would look the part better. I even found a set of red fenders in the original red off a Sprite 27 but aluminum fenders made more sense. The problem I ran into was that I stumbled on a lesser model done just that way which I bought, but found the 25.5" frame was too big for me as I get older.
I put the brakes on the idea until I find a 23" model instead.
Most of these I see these days are faded much the same way. Those built after these tend to fair a bit better but not by much. This one is from 1977, the last year with stamped dropouts, which made it a good choice for the three speed swap.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...80511ad2b9.jpg


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