SRAM Rival/Force--accidental upshift MYTH!!!
 

Short and sweet: in their current design, the SRAM shifters do **NOT **doom you to suffering an unwanted up-shift, when you are trying (in vein) to downshift off of the largest cog.

The notion of an unstoppable upshift is a myth.

And it is a myth that is perpetuated by a) people talking about these shifters who have never used/explored them and, b) by SRAM for not including clear instructions with their shifters.

So I'm now asking all SRAM Rival and Force owners to kindly verify the following on their next ride:

When you are in the largest cog and you try to downshift (ie, move to a larger cog that is in fact no there), this is what should happen:

1) first "click", indicating that a upshift will occur when you release the lever
2) movement of the shifter lever inwards, as would be the typical motion for initiating a normal downshift
3) no second "click" in the position that you would expect to feel/hear the downshift "click"
4) instead, slightly more inward movement of the shifter arm (under a slightly-increased resistence) will initiate a different type of second "click" (in sound and in feel), and a pawl holding cable length will reengage.
5) releasing of the shifter lever now does nothing to the cable length and the the chain remains on the largest cog.

My guess is that, of the folks who have actually ridden SRAM and encountered this scenario, they simply made it to Step 3, said "oh sh*t" and just released the lever.

I'm posting this, becasue this myth was the largest negative point I could find against these shifters. I bought and installed them anyway ;) and was happy to find that the myth was just that--untrue.

All in all, the Rival shifters seem pretty perfect.

Thank you for reading :)

My experience is radically different than yours. In fact, it was my dealer who showed me the problem in the first place. Then, he demonstrated it. Then, I experienced it for myself. It cost him a sale -- and he knew it would cost him the sale. (I admired him for bringing it to my attention. I would not have discovered it in a normal test ride.)

HOWEVER, I only did a test ride after a few minutes of orientation from the dealer. Let me say that, although I'm not entirely convinced that this is a myth (after all, I've experienced it), I am willing to doubt my dealer's knowledge of the shifter. PERHAPS he shifted it wrong and taught me to shift it wrong. Both of us got an upshift when we intended a downshift. Judging by your post, we needed to push the lever BEYOND the normal downshift point in order to safely non-shift.

But . . . I guess that leads to another question: Why should you need instructions on a shifter?

And it seems that an inadvertent upshift is still very possible -- just not entirely certain.

A reasonable point...perhaps a necessary price to be paid for getting all your shifting into one lever?

What you say is correct. I have used SRAM Force group since early April. If it is setup correctly, this won't happen.

I have stated this in previous posts. Because there is only one "paddle" for shifting, user error will happen (perhaps more often than Shimano/Campy). It isn't idiot proof (speaking from personal experience).

Also, with just one paddle, when installing the brifters and connecting to the derailleurs, it can be tricky to get the brifters to the right starting point (i.e. when they should be for the easier associated cog/chainring).

I suspect the dealer's demo bike wasn't setup correctly. If you don't click the brifter to the point of the smallest cog and connect the cable to the RD, you can get that result. I found it hard to know when the brifter is in the right "click" when it is disconnected.

After riding the SRAM group for some time, I find it difficult to understand why I have to think about which lever to use to upshift or downshift when I got back to my other Shimano equipped bikes. Change is good.:)

If you are talking in general about inadvertent upshifts, then the rider must be doing something very wrong with the shifter to be upshifting w/o wanting to.

If you are talking instead about inadvertent upshifts while on the large cog only, then something is wrong with the shifters becasue the upshifting technique/feel SHOULD be identical across all cogs (except the smallest, of course)

If you are talking about inadvertent upshifts while trying to downshift after running out of bigger cogs...see my post above :D

I was the one that first brought it up in the last sram vs shimano vs campy thread. I test drove a bike at my LBS that had the Rival groupset and I experienced this. I was completely oblivious to this problem before I experienced it, so I was not influenced by any other testimony and I discovered this by myself. It could have been just inexperience with the system (I test drove it for about a mile). I think that campy and shimano are just a bit more idiot proof.

Agree.

As has been mentioned, the corrective measure on the large cog is not mirrored in the shifting behavior of any of the other cogs...so you (and Flash) are right in saying that it's not completely intuitive.

But the corrective behavior *IS* there, built into the SRAM shifter--you just have to push a little harder/further in order to stay on that inner-most cog.

(I would also add that all of this can simply be done by feel alone--there's no need to look @ your chain position)

So if you tap the shifter in the manner of a normal downshift while in the biggest cog, it upshifts? And if you tap beyond that, it does nothing? I'd accidentally upshift all the time if doing that. Think going toward a steep pitch... oh !@#$ sets in, and I tap downshifts like crazy, not completely sure how many reserve gears I have. I'm not trying to count or to feel what the response of the shifter is... just tapping three or four times when I might only have two gears in reserve. [Edit: Yes, on both Shimano and Campy, you can downshift a few gears at a time. But that has never become second nature to me, so I just tap repeatedly when I want multiple downshifts.]

I look forward to trying it out for myself sometime, but the concept just doesn't really sit well with me. But then, neither does Campy's shifter setup (even though I've tried it). But choice is good.

Same here. My concern was that this is to be my bike especially for racing in the mountains. If I'm at the end of my endurance and I am desperate for another gear, I want ZERO chance of an upshift. An accidental upshift (when I'm barely making it in my current cog) would be death in the steepest part of our climbs.

I like the idea of the SRAM. At the current state of their equipment, though, when things get desperate, Shimano is safer.

And you know this how???

My point in all this was that there's a lot of noise to signal regarding the SRAM shifters, and most (all?) of the noise is coming from people who have spent either no, or very little time with them.

Having *personally* used BOTH systems, I can tell you that there is no more "danger" inherent in the SRAM system than any other indexed shifting system.

Because there are people who do get accidental upshifts at the end of their cassettes. Even if not all the time. It's great that the system works great for you. Doesn't mean it will work great for everyone. Heck... I'm one of those crazy ones who don't like Campy. Sure, they look cool. But I just don't like having a different motion for upshifts and downshifts. I'd be a lot more likely to put SRAM on my bike if when at the end of the cassette, a requested downshift to the position of a normal downshift simply did nothing and didn't require further travel or pressure to avoid an upshift. But that's just me.

There's no "tapping". Downshifting is a very deliberate movement, more so than even on Shimano.

And no, if you try to do a "normal" downshift in the biggest cog, the shifter does NOTHING. To upshift in this situation, you, the operator, must then knowingly IGNORE the feedback the shifter is giving you (ie, no downshift "click") and then DECIDE to let go of the shifter to initiate the upshift. If you DO these to things, yes, you will upshift...(which is good, because that's how the shifter upshifts--it can't read your mind)

As I already said, they are making the choice/mistake of doing this. The SRAM shifters don't dictate that these folks ignore the feedback the system is giving them.

Yes, I understand what you are saying, that there is feedback in the shifter's response. But I can see myself late in a long hilly ride making that very mistake, not realizing I'm in my last gear, quickly trying to grab a downshift (probably right off of another downshift) and just pushing to the normal downshift position, click or no click, and letting go. Yes, I'd be operating the shifter incorrectly. But I definitely can see it happening.

By the way, another way I'd be much more willing to put SRAM on my bike would be if they made a cyclocomputer like the Shimano Flight Deck so that I would know at all times exactly what gear I was in. Then I would never seek a downshift that wasn't there.

A friend of mine who races (CAT1) switched back to Shimano after a couple months riding SRAM because of this problem. Call it rider error all you want but the fact remains it's easy to initiate a mis-shift and that's something you definitely don't want when you compete.

Sure. Call it personal preference on the part of your friend, just don't imply that the system is inherently flawed.

There are plenty of Cat1/2 and pros who have tired and are sticking with SRAM.

What would you call it when a product doesn't work consistently the way you'd expect it to?

What have I said, or have you experienced, to conclude that the SRAM shifters are in any way erratic in their function?

Back in early April you wrote:
"Couldn't get used to" is a far cry from "doesn't work consistently the way you'd expect it to". The first one is personal preference, the second implies an inherent design flaw. Does your friend think that there is a fatal flaw in the SRAM system?

I ride Campagnolo and I've ridden Shimano quite a bit too. I'm just going on hearsay but it's not as though this is something very few people are complaining about now is it? Sure, it may just take some getting used to, but why should you have to relearn something you can already do instinctively with another more familiar group? It's not as though SRAM is bringing some other added benefit to the table that Shimano and Campy don't have.

Again, personal preference. I find the SRAMs to be much more ergonomic than Shimano, and the ability to shift while fully gripping the drops, using just tiny flicks of a single knuckle is a worthwhile improvement in my book. And, because I can pull the shifting paddle in toward the bar, I'm noticing that my hands are leaving the handlebars much less frequently than with the Shimano system, so overall, I'm in better control of my bike.

I can't speak to Campy.

The fact that you have to type that whopper of a paragraph to explain it answers the question right there.

And BTW I have tried the SRAM shifters and while I like the smooth movement (probably because everything was new) and the way the levers felt, I tend to vary between slamming my gears in and pushing it lightly, depending on my mood. Campy and shimano allows me to do that. If I slam the double tap in hard, it'll probably shift down when i don't want it to.

What?? Who!?? I want these hords of disgruntled people with first-hand SRAM disillusionment to speak up!! They've certainly not done so yet on these forums--I've looked. All I ever seem to find are second-hand accounts of how so-and-so tried SRAM and couldn't stand it or my buddy Fred used the new SRAM group and then his dog died.

Sheesh!

[EDIT: Slovid's first-hand opinion is graciously noted!]

:)

Now, would you like my instructions on how to boil water? ;)


Maybe slamming into an upshift and getting instead a downshift is some sort of a recentering, Yin-Yang, balancing of the humours? After all, I think the shifters are manufactured in the Far East.