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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

clubman 10-12-20 03:51 PM

Looks like a '61 Grand Prix and everything you've noted is likely true.
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/mo...ton-gp.105188/

browngw 10-12-20 09:22 PM

A Tale of Three -Three Speeds. When I was much, much younger, a kid really, I so wanted a fancy three speed bike. Shiny and handsome with the shifter and hand brakes it looked so much nicer than my old single speeds and I imagined how fast I could go on one of them. Motor vehicles soon captured that passion and interest and bikes other than my utile 12 speed MTB were pushed to the side for 50 years. In the last ten years many 3speeds have been restored and sold but three remain as part of family here at One Browns Lane. The two English cousins, Raleigh and Robin Hood and their aristocratic counterpart, the Royal Nord President from Belgium albeit it having a English drive train from Brampton (Birmingham).
Each has its own personality from the sporty lively feel of the Robin Hood to the heavy smooth roll of the Raleigh Tourist and the stately, almost regal feel of the Royal Nord. First time photographed together.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e4374b0901.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c718c2767a.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...68402d5ebf.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f82e1be12.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f69fd164d7.jpg

Rherdegen 10-13-20 06:06 AM

Beauties, all three! A fine collection!

Dewey101 10-13-20 07:24 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 21740104)
One more thing to check before investing in a stem is the steerer tube. Perhaps it's bent. Or worse, cracked.

I haven't removed a fork before, the Sheldon Brown website says the procedure is to invert the bicycle, unscrew the lock nut, unscrew the threaded bearing race, and lift the fork out of the frame.

Will unscrewing the adjustable race cause the bearings to fall out? Presumably I'll need to do this over a sheet of cardboard to catch everything that drops out. And I just need to disassemble the top race not the lower headtube race correct?

bluesteak 10-13-20 07:44 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 21740437)
Looks like a '61 Grand Prix and everything you've noted is likely true.
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/mo...ton-gp.105188/

Are you saying that it is possible or even likely, that a bike shop sold this bike more or less as it is now in 61,62, and that Tube Investments sold a miss mash of stuff into the US market, after they acquired Raleigh in 1960. For instance I have seen Blue Streaks with Raleigh fork crowns, mine doesn’t have one.

This matters in what I do with the bike. I am tempted to part it out if it is two or more bikes put together.

FBOATSB 10-13-20 07:48 AM


Originally Posted by Dewey101 (Post 21741116)
I haven't removed a fork before, the Sheldon Brown website says the procedure is to invert the bicycle, unscrew the lock nut, unscrew the threaded bearing race, and lift the fork out of the frame.

Will unscrewing the adjustable race cause the bearings to fall out? Presumably I'll need to do this over a sheet of cardboard to catch everything that drops out.

If not caged bearings, yes. A rag or drop cloth works great, the loose balls just love to roll all over the place. Thank you for pulling the fork I was worried about your steer tube.

JaccoW 10-13-20 08:48 AM

Can anyone tell me what to look for in FM 4-speed hubs to see whether they can be swapped with a steel AW hub?

http://i.imgur.com/nVjUZB3h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pPtglsIh.jpg

keithdavis2 10-13-20 09:42 AM

Also a rare earth magnet helps (i.e. something really powerful). I usually open it up slightly and try to suck on the bearings out with the magnet. It is also a very good idea to count them when you take them out and put them back in. There should be the same number both top and bottom.

jackbombay 10-13-20 10:57 AM


Originally Posted by keithdavis2 (Post 21741334)
Also a rare earth magnet helps (i.e. something really powerful). I usually open it up slightly and try to suck on the bearings out with the magnet. It is also a very good idea to count them when you take them out and put them back in. There should be the same number both top and bottom.

Sheldon Brown does tell you how many it is supposed to have on his raleigh 3 speed page.

keithdavis2 10-13-20 11:15 AM

Agreed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the actual number you have. I found that my Royal Scot was missing a few. Probably a previous restoration which wasn't me. :)

keithdavis2 10-13-20 11:17 AM

Beautiful bikes I am betting the ride is amazing.

vascoboy 10-13-20 02:46 PM

wheelset 26x1 3/8 alloy w/ 3 spd IGH
 
hello,
does anyone know where I can find a wheelset for 26 x 1 3/8 (590) w alloy rims & 3 spd Internal Gear Hub? the steel ones are around, but I would really prefer alloy...
Harris Cyclery does not seem to stock them...
Thanks!
Chris

Salubrious 10-13-20 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by JaccoW (Post 21741239)
Can anyone tell me what to look for in FM 4-speed hubs to see whether they can be swapped with a steel AW hub?

I've seen 3-speeds inside FW hubs. One thing I can say for sure is that the alloy FM has a way of failing- the hub body cracks easily. Apparently not a problem on the FW.


Originally Posted by vascoboy (Post 21741809)
hello,
does anyone know where I can find a wheelset for 26 x 1 3/8 (590) w alloy rims & 3 spd Internal Gear Hub? the steel ones are around, but I would really prefer alloy...
Harris Cyclery does not seem to stock them...
Thanks!
Chris

Alloy rims in 26" by 1 3/8" have become rare. Wheels were not made with the 3 speed hub AFAIK. Anywhere I've seen them the shop built them up. Sun got out of that rim size; we're all hoping they'll make more...

JaccoW 10-13-20 04:31 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 21741938)
I've seen 3-speeds inside FW hubs. One thing I can say for sure is that the alloy FM has a way of failing- the hub body cracks easily. Apparently not a problem on the FW.

oh you misunderstood. I'm planning on using the hub of an AW with the FM internals. But I'm not sure this hub even makes that possible.

Salubrious 10-13-20 04:34 PM


Originally Posted by JaccoW (Post 21741952)
oh you misunderstood. I'm planning on using the hub of an AW with the FM internals. But I'm not sure this hub even makes that possible.

I got it. Mostly I was encouraging you to do something because if you were to install that hub on a wheel you stand a good chance of seeing it fly apart. If an AW hub body works it would be a good solution- the indicator on the left side would be a good sign its not an AW :)

jackbombay 10-13-20 07:15 PM


Originally Posted by JaccoW (Post 21741952)
oh you misunderstood. I'm planning on using the hub of an AW with the FM internals. But I'm not sure this hub even makes that possible.

I screwed the internals from a S5 five speed sturmey into an AW hub shell and it works well, my hunch is that the FM will do the same, I did find info on Sheldon Brown's website that said my "swap" was possible, there a good chance that you can find similar info on his website.

nlerner 10-13-20 07:29 PM

FM hub shell is same size as AW/AM/FW.

markk900 10-14-20 05:27 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 21741938)
Alloy rims in 26" by 1 3/8" have become rare. Wheels were not made with the 3 speed hub AFAIK. Anywhere I've seen them the shop built them up. Sun got out of that rim size; we're all hoping they'll make more...

Apparently SJS still stocks house-branded alloy 590 rims:https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rims-26-590/

JaccoW 10-14-20 06:22 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 21742211)
FM hub shell is same size as AW/AM/FW.

Well, the reason I am asking is this:

Post by robc02 » 19 Apr 2018, 7:22pm

rjb wrote:Can you remove the innards from a Sturmey Archer 1953 4 speed fm hub in an alloy shell and transplant into a steel aw shell? The fm is a 40 hole and i wish to put it in a 36 spoked wheel. If it is possible what else do i need to consider.
No, unless it's an old shell with a threaded ball cup and you replace the AW one with an FM one. The difference between them can be seen here:

https://hadland.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/safm.pdf
https://hadland.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/saaw.pdf

The later type AW has a pressed in ball cup:

https://hadland.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/saaw.pdf
Forum.cyclinguk.org
I recall seeing pictures showing the differences somewhere but I can't find them anymore.

Though I do enjoy the idea of unscrewing the ball cup this way:

I have managed to remove them by inserting a large nut and bolt through the axle hole and fastening it good and tight! I then hold the nut in a vice and turn the wheel by its rim. This has the effect of tightening the nut against the hub shell and usually the ball cup loosens before the nut and bolt slip. I have a UNF bolt that just about fits through the axle hole.

threespeedmafia 10-14-20 10:52 AM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 21740391)
I am sending pics of my latest folly.

I bought this bike on eBay. According to my research, the frame is clearly set up for a 10 speed deraileur, but it has ea1 wheels, a 55 AW rear hub laced 3 cross, the front wheel is laced radial. Both wheels have wingnuts on the axles. The jockey wheel clamp partly covers the 531 decal(no braze on for the jockey wheel).

It has an elegant willams style single ring crankset. There are no obvious marks from either a front or rear deraileur on the frame. It has a serial number on the bottom bracket xy and 4 digits.

I assume this was put together from two or more bikes, unless raleigh assembled a bunch of bikes from old inventory for export to generate cash flow.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5271d7feb8.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ad6ed4bd43.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2a885726d6.jpg

Congrats on the winning bid. It could have been purchased from the bicycle shop originally set up as a 3 speed per the owner's request. The chain ring (one of the prettiest) was used as a double ring on earlier LGPrix that would have used the manual, rod activated or suicide shifter to change rings and someone could have removed the smaller ring. But this frame was clearly set up to use two downtube shifters so I believe that makes it a 60 or 61. I have two 61s, one set up with the derailleur and one that was set up as a 4 speed IGH specifically purchased that way by the owner in 1961. But it could have been patched together from two bicycles, or more. The bars and brake levers look to be from the 70s bike boom era. And the stem looks to be standard Raleigh Sports issue. And, this frame would have been set up with 27 inch wheels and if i'm not mistaken, this one is set up with 26 inch wheels. With it's current set-up, I'm betting someone wanted more of a tourist set-up with upright bars so the wheels, hub, stem would have been changed and an upright bar would have been added. Then somewhere along the way, somebody added later bars and brake levers. This was what I came up with as I was salivating over this bicycle on the bay. Just a theory though as many times we only have clues to our bicycles past lives.

Salubrious 10-14-20 10:55 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 21742577)
Apparently SJS still stocks house-branded alloy 590 rims:https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rims-26-590/

Sweet! Now they have less as I just picked up a 32 hole and a 40 hole. Thanks for the tip!

threespeedmafia 10-14-20 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by bluesteak (Post 21741146)
Are you saying that it is possible or even likely, that a bike shop sold this bike more or less as it is now in 61,62, and that Tube Investments sold a miss mash of stuff into the US market, after they acquired Raleigh in 1960. For instance I have seen Blue Streaks with Raleigh fork crowns, mine doesn’t have one.

This matters in what I do with the bike. I am tempted to part it out if it is two or more bikes put together.

Please don't part it out. Simply add a more upright bar for that stem, or find period correct stem and drop bars and add a more period correct SA trigger and saddle.
Raleighs were sold (under the Raleigh name) in well established bicycle shops and many parts and pieces were usually ordered and kept on hand. Just because the bicycle was cataloged a certain way did not mean that it was necessarily "sold" that way. Raleigh dealers were ready and willing to help you customize your bicycle. This was a time when Customer Service actually mattered and was not like walking into a big box store or sadly, a modern bike shop.
The frame is a good frame. The parts you have are good parts. It just needs a little help with the bars and brake levers. The frame is a desirable frame and the 55 SA AW hub with wing nuts is a desirable hub. Witha few tweaks, you can have a fine rider. And cleaned and polished up, it also makes a fine piece of ridable art .

threespeedmafia 10-14-20 11:25 AM

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0a6a16827d.jpg
Mid 50s Hercules Royal Prince out for a fall ride

bluesteak 10-14-20 03:54 PM

Mongrel Lenton
 
Thanks to all for your input. I am hoping to restore it.

also per the hub swap discussion sounds like I could put fw internals in the existing hub and it need to rebuild the wheel.

bluesteak 10-16-20 09:13 AM

Fw hub?
 
I found a fw hub for auction on eBay.

It looks like the indicator chain is broken, and it has a threaded driver. Can I combine my 55 aw and this 50 fw into a working hub with a modern driver or will I need an fw chain, and an fw driver.


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