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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

swampyankee2 03-25-22 07:47 AM

Looking to upgrade the steel calipers on my Robin Hood. Will the commonly available Dia-Comps work?
Allegedly '80's on eBay

nlerner 03-25-22 08:16 AM


Originally Posted by swampyankee2 (Post 22450416)
Looking to upgrade the steel calipers on my Robin Hood. Will the commonly available Dia-Comps work?
Allegedly '80's on eBay

Any caliper will work if the reach is appropriate.

swampyankee2 03-25-22 08:32 AM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 22450441)
Any caliper will work if the reach is appropriate.

I guess my question should've been, What single-pull calipers has anyone successfully used to replace the original steel ones?

52telecaster 03-25-22 10:05 AM


Originally Posted by swampyankee2 (Post 22450461)
I guess my question should've been, What single-pull calipers has anyone successfully used to replace the original steel ones?

Lower end tektro dual pivots work very well. The ones without a quick release are pretty cheap.

thumpism 03-25-22 11:09 AM

One of you guys really needs this.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...67550686850507

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...9w&oe=62430B93

gster 03-25-22 02:50 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22450379)
For whatever reason, the Kenda 597 tires are made kind of small for the bead, especially if you compare to the original, USA-made tires. I've used the Kenda 597 black walls and white walls, and they're always a little small to start. I can work them onto the rim by hand, but they need to be pumped up to 70-75psi or so to get them to pop out into the bead. Usually that is enough, but on a couple sets of rims, I had to use a dot of Trident scuba grease (it's made to be compatible with rubber) in the area that is a problem, then take it to 70 pounds. But after enough fiddling, I've been able to get them to pop onto the bead. During the riding season (Mar/Apr through Nov here), I don't let them get low on air. After a season of being ridden and pumped to full pressure, I haven't had a problem of them trying to back off the bead.

But the basic point you make is right that these are kind of small for the bead and they usually need help getting set up correctly. Something probably was off just a bit in the design of the tire. The new old stock tires from the 1950s-60s I've come across go right on the rim and into the bead seat without so much effort.

I seem to recall that mine went on fairly easily..
Perhaps it's a case of quality control.
I have had trouble with other tires and found that
-a cold rim (outside Canada)
-a warm tire (warmed over an air duct)
Helped somewhat.

3speedslow 03-25-22 08:18 PM

For 25$ I got a complete Columbia Sport 3. It shifts and rides fine but quite dirty and a smidge rusty.

1973 6 date code on the SA hub

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ac24d6e52.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c513ef3e9.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ef9d1c1fb.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ebb35ebac.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2fdd6ceaf.jpeg

3speedslow 03-25-22 08:33 PM

Plans are to do the usual clean, lube and replace the tires. I will work the fit so I can ride it around the neighborhood and errands but will keep this around for when I can get a Lady Friend to come ride with me.

I remember my Dad mentioning these bikes. I think he rode one way back in the days. Never his though, too poor was he.

swampyankee2 03-25-22 08:38 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 22451101)
For 25$ I got a complete Columbia Sport 3. It shifts and rides fine but quite dirty and a smidge rusty.
1973 6 date code on the SA hub

I've seen them for sale cheap and have been intrigued. Columbia was a Massachusetts company and bikes were built in Westfield and/or Torrington CT. Right here in good old New England.

3speedslow 03-25-22 08:52 PM

Mine was built in Westfield, Mass.

Not high end by any means but another rider which made use of the SA drivetrain.

SirMike1983 03-25-22 09:14 PM

I think more and more people are discovering American-made "English-style" bikes. The American brands offered some different variations on the diamond frame, English-style utility bike. Schwinn was not alone in offering such bikes.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-w5rcHyWF0...ield%2B003.JPG

Columbia/Westfield made utility type bikes going way, way back. Prior to the late 1930s, they were of the "antique" style. They offered diamond frame models, WW1 military and courier type models with double top bars, and a number of other frames in the early 20th century. These generally were single speed coaster brake models, the US bicycle market preferring that style.

The earliest "modern" Westfield/Columbia utility bikes that are in the English-style and not as much in the antique style appeared in the late 1930s. The main models were the Sports Tourist and Sports Roadster.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FwEqnbE5y...1.15%2B009.JPG

The Sports Tourist could come with hand brakes and a three speed Sturmey Archer hub, but also could come as a single speed. The Sports Roadster usually appeared as a single speed coaster brake (though sometimes with an English front brake as well). I owned a Sports Roadster from 1940, and it was a good bike - on a par with a Raleigh, Schwinn, or Hercules from that era. It had a New Departure Model D coaster brake and a Philco English front add-on brake. It was an amalgam of English and American elements.

They produced bikes through WWII, having government approval to make utilitarian, English-style bikes for use during the war (in addition to their heavier WW2 military balloon tire models). You sometimes will still find these as single-speed coaster brake bikes with no or less than normal plating (painted parts substituting for plated ones during the second war). A folding bike with 26 inch wheels also was part of the utility family during the 1940s, an interesting concept, known as the "Compax".

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b-812ICF_...1.15%2B014.JPG

During the 1950s, Columbia/Westfield continued to make very good three speed bikes, roughly on a par with the base and mid-level Schwinn and Raleigh offerings of the same period. The bikes continued to combine English and American design features. Again, 3-speed Sturmey and single speed coaster options were available, depending on what you wanted, the supply resuming after the war.

By the 1960s some rather strong cost-cutting measures set in at Columbia/Westfield on their utility bikes. Cost-cutting seems to have hit harder and faster at Columbia/Westfield than it did at Schwinn or Raleigh (though they too were cost-cutting over the course of the 1960s). Into the 1970s Columbia/Westfield bikes began using Shimano type hubs, thinner metal fenders than previously, and more plastic parts than earlier bikes. They had fallen below Schwinn and Raleigh in terms of quality by this point, but all of those brands continued to cheapen things here and there.

This is not to say the later Columbia/Westfield bikes are "bad", but it is to say care should be taken to inspect the bike and parts, and it may need some extra work and replacement parts to bring back (depending on how it was kept, of course). The most collectible bikes are the older ones from before WW2, and somewhat into the 1950s, though it's the early stuff from before and during WW2 that collectors usually want.

A Westfield Sports Roadster from 1940:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XbLb1TxH2...220_155139.jpg

gster 03-25-22 10:09 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 22451101)

Good score.
Like Nigel, I'm generally confused...
Were these American 3 speeds built in the U.S.?
The cranks are American/Canadian style
Did Raleigh send frames/frame parts over or
were they completely made in the States?
I gots ta know.....

3speedslow 03-26-22 01:38 PM

Good question!

I know Raleigh sent whole bikes to other companies to be rebadged, Huffy Sportsman model here in the states and a few in Canada.

As for parts, the drivetrain seems to be the most prevalent. Mind you, SA and Brooks were not always a part of Raleigh so what USA manufactures used these before Raleigh got them is not known to me.

Im just glad they learned to share!

3speedslow 03-26-22 01:47 PM

ive had a short time to look more closely at the Columbia. Worse rust spots clean right off which is good. The rear wheel, Araya, is missing a spoke on the NDS. Front wheel is a Chromlux. Rear brake housing has been replaced. Tires are Duro. Reflectors are Gilco. Mesinger saddle. Pedals, grips, chain and bar, stem unknown. Brakes are Weinmann 810, levers are same. Seatpost is long!

Cant wait to get it back to my house for the project time.

52telecaster 03-26-22 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 22451161)
Good score.
Like Nigel, I'm generally confused...
Were these American 3 speeds built in the U.S.?
The cranks are American/Canadian style
Did Raleigh send frames/frame parts over or
were they completely made in the States?
I gots ta know.....

I have very little knowledge but I would guess the one piece crank leans toward American built.

SirMike1983 03-26-22 04:00 PM

The Columbias were made in Westfield, Massachusetts, though many parts were sourced from abroad in later years. By the 1970s they were building the bikes more cheaply, and sourcing parts from England, Germany, and Japan.

thumpism 03-28-22 06:56 AM

Nicely aged "Brooks" bike for $100 in NY.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...25038548391962

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...bQ&oe=6246EBFA

drasp 03-29-22 10:39 AM

I haven't posted in ages - haven't owned a Raleigh since selling my '51 in a million years ago, but I do enjoy seeing updates to this thread from time to time. This one sort of fell in my lap this morning and I can't quite figure out what it is! Guessing late '70s Sports/DL22, but some items seem to date earlier. . .figured someone here would be able to make sense of it! I put the grips on from my personal stash. Had quite a few things I couldn't leave alone, so removed a bottle cage, plastic light mount, makeshift bar tape grips & some old Cristophe clips. Left the SR touring pedals, I don't mind them. Pump seems original (Made in England on the plastic insert). Saddle & bag feel/look quite old, so hard to imagine they're modern, but do they look mid/late '70s like the bicycle? Hmm. . . also, lots of little things like the "Ti" on the top tube decal, shouldn't be there pre '78, right? But then the seat post tube should have a different decal, fender shouldn't be white, and should have the big clunky reflector.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fb9e383617.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c217d9911.jpeg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c355015f6.jpeg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5fb26ab42.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...144b50429.jpeg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...094a5049f.jpeg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...835f40136.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2512d31aa.jpeg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6582e090e.jpeg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2c97ecf29.jpeg

swampyankee2 03-29-22 11:26 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22450379)
For whatever reason, the Kenda 597 tires are made kind of small for the bead, especially if you compare to the original, USA-made tires. I've used the Kenda 597 black walls and white walls, and they're always a little small to start. I can work them onto the rim by hand, but they need to be pumped up to 70-75psi or so to get them to pop out into the bead. Usually that is enough, but on a couple sets of rims, I had to use a dot of Trident scuba grease (it's made to be compatible with rubber) in the area that is a problem, then take it to 70 pounds. But after enough fiddling, I've been able to get them to pop onto the bead. During the riding season (Mar/Apr through Nov here), I don't let them get low on air. After a season of being ridden and pumped to full pressure, I haven't had a problem of them trying to back off the bead.

But the basic point you make is right that these are kind of small for the bead and they usually need help getting set up correctly. Something probably was off just a bit in the design of the tire. The new old stock tires from the 1950s-60s I've come across go right on the rim and into the bead seat without so much effort.

I just put a set of Kenda gumwalls on my Sports and had trouble getting them to sit right. At least now I know it's not just me doing something wrong.

bikamper 03-29-22 11:27 AM

^^^
The brakes are early to mid sixties. The hub and shifter are much later. I have pump pegs on my 68 Superbe but not on my later Sports. Come to think of it, some of my earlier Sports do and don't have the pump pegs.

Not a lot of help.

swampyankee2 03-29-22 11:35 AM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 22450578)
Lower end tektro dual pivots work very well. The ones without a quick release are pretty cheap.

I found a set clean set of Dia-Comps with quick releases, along with a set of Weimann drilled levers with hoods and cables as well. The Dia-Comps are for the Robin Hood Lenton sports along with a set of Weimann non-drilled levers with suicide levers from my Dawes Galaxy. The drilled set are for the Galaxy.

swampyankee2 03-29-22 11:38 AM


Originally Posted by drasp (Post 22454796)
I haven't posted in ages - haven't owned a Raleigh since selling my '51 in a million years ago, but I do enjoy seeing updates to this thread from time to time. This one sort of fell in my lap this morning and I can't quite figure out what it is! Guessing late '70s Sports/DL22, but some items seem to date earlier. . .figured someone here would be able to make sense of it! I put the grips on from my personal stash. Had quite a few things I couldn't leave alone, so removed a bottle cage, plastic light mount, makeshift bar tape grips & some old Cristophe clips. Left the SR touring pedals, I don't mind them. Pump seems original (Made in England on the plastic insert). Saddle & bag feel/look quite old, so hard to imagine they're modern, but do they look mid/late '70s like the bicycle? Hmm. . . also, lots of little things like the "Ti" on the top tube decal, shouldn't be there pre '78, right? But then the seat post tube should have a different decal, fender shouldn't be white, and should have the big clunky reflector.

Looks like a real time machine, whatever the year!

gster 03-29-22 12:11 PM


Originally Posted by drasp (Post 22454796)
I haven't posted in ages - haven't owned a Raleigh since selling my '51 in a million years ago, but I do enjoy seeing updates to this thread from time to time. This one sort of fell in my lap this morning and I can't quite figure out what it is! Guessing late '70s Sports/DL22, but some items seem to date earlier. . .figured someone here would be able to make sense of it! I put the grips on from my personal stash. Had quite a few things I couldn't leave alone, so removed a bottle cage, plastic light mount, makeshift bar tape grips & some old Cristophe clips. Left the SR touring pedals, I don't mind them. Pump seems original (Made in England on the plastic insert). Saddle & bag feel/look quite old, so hard to imagine they're modern, but do they look mid/late '70s like the bicycle? Hmm. . . also, lots of little things like the "Ti" on the top tube decal, shouldn't be there pre '78, right? But then the seat post tube should have a different decal, fender shouldn't be white, and should have the big clunky reflector.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fb9e383617.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c217d9911.jpeg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c355015f6.jpeg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5fb26ab42.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...144b50429.jpeg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...094a5049f.jpeg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...835f40136.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2512d31aa.jpeg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6582e090e.jpeg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2c97ecf29.jpeg

Agree that the calipers are old. Are there eyes stamped on the heron chainring? I can't tell. That would date it 1961 or older.

drasp 03-29-22 01:54 PM

Yes, has eyes on the chain ring. But do the lugs match the early '60s shape/etc? Possible it got repainted & decals done in the late '70s, but is an early '60s bike? So weird. And both the Sturmey Archer hub & shfiter seem to be '80s, but the rear rim seems to match the age of the fron - which has an old oiler hub. . .and so on.

cudak888 03-29-22 02:34 PM

I want to say that's one of those not-really-cataloged base-model "S22" Sports that came in that characteristic gold color - but those generally had Raleigh's forward-slanted chainguard instead of the conventional hockey stick (hockey sticks were used on the similar gold models under the secondary brands, e.g., Triumph and Robin Hood). These were also equipped with conventional pinch-bolt brakes unlike what's seen here.

I believe the gold S22 variants started in '67 and ended in 72. However, I'm seeing 1973+ decals on the downtube and chainguard - but the closeups of all the decals shown so far indicate these aren't decals, they're replacement stickers. Additionally, the Heron replacement fork decals and the tubing decal on the seattube are incorrect for any '73, but correct for an S22.

My bet is that this bike was put together by someone who understood the bike enough to parts-build one, and chose this replacement decal set because it was what they could get. What date is on the hub? I notice the rims are the correct, box-section Endricks.

-Kurt

gster 03-29-22 03:34 PM

Nice bike but not the price..
A recent Kijiji listing here in Toronto
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...470d8e161c.jpg
A Raleigh built Supercycle.
.....$750!!

gster 03-29-22 06:40 PM


Originally Posted by drasp (Post 22455068)
Yes, has eyes on the chain ring. But do the lugs match the early '60s shape/etc? Possible it got repainted & decals done in the late '70s, but is an early '60s bike? So weird. And both the Sturmey Archer hub & shfiter seem to be '80s, but the rear rim seems to match the age of the fron - which has an old oiler hub. . .and so on.

You may have a classic "Bitsa" bike...
Bits of this and bits of that.
I've got several that I've assembled over the years.

thumpism 03-29-22 09:21 PM

This probably belongs in the Wacky thread but I thought it was more important to be posted here. Looks like someone with a spray can converted a ladies' loop-frame Raleigh Tourist into a trike. Naaaa, couldn't happen.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...39040031594379

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...cA&oe=62482173

SirMike1983 04-01-22 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22451139)
I think more and more people are discovering American-made "English-style" bikes. The American brands offered some different variations on the diamond frame, English-style utility bike. Schwinn was not alone in offering such bikes.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-w5rcHyWF0...ield%2B003.JPG

Columbia/Westfield made utility type bikes going way, way back. Prior to the late 1930s, they were of the "antique" style. They offered diamond frame models, WW1 military and courier type models with double top bars, and a number of other frames in the early 20th century. These generally were single speed coaster brake models, the US bicycle market preferring that style.

The earliest "modern" Westfield/Columbia utility bikes that are in the English-style and not as much in the antique style appeared in the late 1930s. The main models were the Sports Tourist and Sports Roadster.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FwEqnbE5y...1.15%2B009.JPG

The Sports Tourist could come with hand brakes and a three speed Sturmey Archer hub, but also could come as a single speed. The Sports Roadster usually appeared as a single speed coaster brake (though sometimes with an English front brake as well). I owned a Sports Roadster from 1940, and it was a good bike - on a par with a Raleigh, Schwinn, or Hercules from that era. It had a New Departure Model D coaster brake and a Philco English front add-on brake. It was an amalgam of English and American elements.

They produced bikes through WWII, having government approval to make utilitarian, English-style bikes for use during the war (in addition to their heavier WW2 military balloon tire models). You sometimes will still find these as single-speed coaster brake bikes with no or less than normal plating (painted parts substituting for plated ones during the second war). A folding bike with 26 inch wheels also was part of the utility family during the 1940s, an interesting concept, known as the "Compax".

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b-812ICF_...1.15%2B014.JPG

During the 1950s, Columbia/Westfield continued to make very good three speed bikes, roughly on a par with the base and mid-level Schwinn and Raleigh offerings of the same period. The bikes continued to combine English and American design features. Again, 3-speed Sturmey and single speed coaster options were available, depending on what you wanted, the supply resuming after the war.

By the 1960s some rather strong cost-cutting measures set in at Columbia/Westfield on their utility bikes. Cost-cutting seems to have hit harder and faster at Columbia/Westfield than it did at Schwinn or Raleigh (though they too were cost-cutting over the course of the 1960s). Into the 1970s Columbia/Westfield bikes began using Shimano type hubs, thinner metal fenders than previously, and more plastic parts than earlier bikes. They had fallen below Schwinn and Raleigh in terms of quality by this point, but all of those brands continued to cheapen things here and there.

This is not to say the later Columbia/Westfield bikes are "bad", but it is to say care should be taken to inspect the bike and parts, and it may need some extra work and replacement parts to bring back (depending on how it was kept, of course). The most collectible bikes are the older ones from before WW2, and somewhat into the 1950s, though it's the early stuff from before and during WW2 that collectors usually want.

A Westfield Sports Roadster from 1940:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XbLb1TxH2...220_155139.jpg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...14f82215f8.jpg

An example of a 1950s Columbia 3-speed with Dynohub. The 1950s era bikes had unique Y-shaped chain and seat stays.

cudak888 04-01-22 07:36 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22457986)
An example of a 1950s Columbia 3-speed with Dynohub. The 1950s era bikes had unique Y-shaped chain and seat stays.

They kept that going on the 1960's middleweights too. Seems to have been phased out fairly quickly on the diamond frames.

-Kurt


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