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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

adventurepdx 06-20-15 12:55 PM

For those of you in the Portland, OR area, don't forget that the Three Speed Ride is tomorrow! And remember, if sixtyfiver was in town (he is not), he'd totally be on this ride!

THREE SPEED RIDE
Sunday June 21
meet at 4, leave just before 4:30
Omaha Parkway, N Omaha Av at Ainsworth St
(same spot as last year, in the parkway strip)



What better way to finish Sunday Parkways than ramble around the northern reaches of Portland on your humble internally geared three speed bicycle? Bring your trusty three speed bicycle from any nation. Three speeds preferred but any bike welcome if you don't have one. Casual paced ramble of approx 10-15 miles, fairly flat, with a little unpaved "rough stuff" action thrown in. We'll have a picnic and tea brew up on the way, bring all the necessities like food, a teakettle and a camping stove. Ride not a loop, ends near transit and adult beverages.

adventurepdx 06-20-15 12:57 PM


Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 17910593)
My wife has often said that if I filled a truck or trailer full of old three speeds, which are as abundant the mosquitoes here, and brought them to Portland we'd make a killing...

It wasn't just your wife saying that! ;)

gna 06-20-15 02:06 PM

3 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17911331)
Your bike looks so good! Paint looks great from this distance. Are those vintage rims?

The paint's ok. It has some chips and scratches.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=459522http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=459523

Photos seem to look better than reality. For instance, my daughter's bike photos well, but the paint is in pretty rough shape:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=459515

The rims were some old BMX front wheels I bought from Mr. Michael's. I looked for some that were a good match. I reused the Raleigh spokes and transferred them over. Had to grind a few down.
I was surprised how much lighter the aluminum rims are.

I had some Kenda Kwests on it before, but the sidewall tore on the rear one so I put the old Raleigh tires back on.

I've had back luck with Kendas lately--I've gone through two K40 HPs on the rear wheel of my Sports. Gave up and bought a set of Delta Cruisers.

rubah 06-20-15 02:11 PM

Hi all,

After getting my '65 Raleigh Sports stolen last year, I finished restoring a green '67-'68 Sports and have been riding it to work 1-2 times a week. In the last week, I've noticed a new clicking sound below me that I can't really reproduce when I get off and put my head down low, and seems to occur about 1x per pedal revolution. Twice since then, I've felt something slip while pedalling a few times, then resolve itself after about half a block or so.

The shifter doesn't seem to be coming out of alignment (something I've had trouble with since none of my cable clamps seem to fit right to hold it still, but liberal application of masking tape has done OK for now), so I don't think it's the hub. The chain however looks pretty loose, and pulling on it, I can move it up and down about an inch or more.
picture

Would the loose chain explain the periodic slip feeling? If so, should I just move the wheel back for now while I wait for a new chain, and if I get a new chain, do I also need new cogs?

rhm 06-20-15 03:51 PM


Originally Posted by gna (Post 17911277)
I believe @rhm aka Rudi has a Twenty with a dynohub. He would probably be able to answer questions about Dynos and small wheels.

Not quite right! My folding bike is a Downtube 8H, which looks very much like a twenty but has an aluminum frame that actually folds really well. It's an entirely excellent little bike. And its dynamo is a Sanyo.
The smaller wheel, rotating faster, puts out considerably higher voltage than most lights can handle. I destroyed several before I learned to make very primitive but robust lights using LEDs from various internet sources and copper plumbing parts (especially 3/4" pipe caps, which conveniently hold an LED star and its collimator).
The lights I make are so primitive they don't have any kind of switch. If the wheel is turning, the lights are on. I've had this bike since August 2010, ridden it almost 9,000 miles, and the lights haven't burned out yet. The illumination is probably a bit less than what you'd get from properly engineered electronics, but what can I do. I really know nearly nothing about electronics.

gna 06-20-15 04:29 PM


Originally Posted by rubah (Post 17911517)
Hi all,

After getting my '65 Raleigh Sports stolen last year, I finished restoring a green '67-'68 Sports and have been riding it to work 1-2 times a week. In the last week, I've noticed a new clicking sound below me that I can't really reproduce when I get off and put my head down low, and seems to occur about 1x per pedal revolution. Twice since then, I've felt something slip while pedalling a few times, then resolve itself after about half a block or so.

The shifter doesn't seem to be coming out of alignment (something I've had trouble with since none of my cable clamps seem to fit right to hold it still, but liberal application of masking tape has done OK for now), so I don't think it's the hub. The chain however looks pretty loose, and pulling on it, I can move it up and down about an inch or more.
picture

Would the loose chain explain the periodic slip feeling? If so, should I just move the wheel back for now while I wait for a new chain, and if I get a new chain, do I also need new cogs?

You've got plenty of room to move the chain back. Try that first. It could be a cotter, too.

My Sports made an unusual clicking sound when I was pedaling hard. I thought it was a pedal, but changing them out didn't solve it. Finally, I checked the cranks in just the right position. I had to snug up the bottom bracket a bit.

BigChief 06-20-15 05:51 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17911063)
@Sixty Fiver - your bikes are gorgeous. You're right about the fender spacers - mine has those. Thanks for giving me the rundown on what worked for you. Who, in Portland, would have die for Raleigh threading? I wonder if A Better Cycle would? What color paint is that on Forrest. It looks to be similar to the Raleigh "coffee" color, which I love.
@BigChief - your Sprite is very handsome. Is it coffee color? In the photo it almost looks very dark Eggplant color (purple). Please tell me more about the left side shifter. There is a step through Triumph for offer now on CL and it has cables coming out of both sides of the rear hub. It seems I've read about this before, but thought you might like to take a minute to educate those who might be searching for info. like this. Will you ride this bike or ???

Got the front brake recabled/housing last night and oh boy, what a difference. Today I'll get brake cable for the rear and a new SA cable kit. If I'm inclined I might remove the rear wheel and clean up the AW hub. The chrome on it is very nice and after oiling yesterday, seems to shift (on the stand) just great. I'll post photos later.

Have happy riding and productive wrenching!

OH! I wanted to ask: What would happen if I laced a SA GH6 front dyno to, say, a 451 rim? A 406 Rim? Would the faster rotating wheel burn out the bulb or anything? What is the difference if I used a modern LED headlight vs vintage?

Also, do you think a 350MM seat post would suffice? I'm 5'6" & have my saddle top about 27.25" above crank center. Thanks.

What chain do you like to use on something like this? Single speed, 1/8"? Any particular model?

I wouldn't call it coffee color. It's more of a purple-ish dark red. Looks to be a candy apple type paint job with a
metallic undercoat. I've always had an issue with AW hubs. Mostly, it's the overdrive (3rd) is too tall for me.
I've never found a medium ratio (AM) hub but thought I would like it better than the wide ratio AW. The S5 is like
having an AW and AM in one. The left side bell crank will shift from a medium ratio when slack to a wide ratio when
engaged. 2nd is the same in either mode, so you have a total of 5 ratios. The highest and lowest available in wide mode
and 3 closer middle ratios available in medium mode. I like this hub a lot. We'll see how reliable it is. I'll be riding
the Sprite daily. I did have to change the shifting system. The original top tube mounted shifters just plain didn't work.
They were awful. The way I have it set up now seems to work well.

BigChief 06-20-15 06:00 PM


Originally Posted by rubah (Post 17911517)
Hi all,

After getting my '65 Raleigh Sports stolen last year, I finished restoring a green '67-'68 Sports and have been riding it to work 1-2 times a week. In the last week, I've noticed a new clicking sound below me that I can't really reproduce when I get off and put my head down low, and seems to occur about 1x per pedal revolution. Twice since then, I've felt something slip while pedalling a few times, then resolve itself after about half a block or so.

The shifter doesn't seem to be coming out of alignment (something I've had trouble with since none of my cable clamps seem to fit right to hold it still, but liberal application of masking tape has done OK for now), so I don't think it's the hub. The chain however looks pretty loose, and pulling on it, I can move it up and down about an inch or more.
picture

Would the loose chain explain the periodic slip feeling? If so, should I just move the wheel back for now while I wait for a new chain, and if I get a new chain, do I also need new cogs?

Not sure about the slipping, but worn out bearings in the pedals can cause a clicking sound. 1x per revolution sounds a lot like pedal bearings to me.

Velocivixen 06-20-15 10:18 PM

My update to the R20 involved the SA AW hub disassemble & very deep clean, finish brake & shifter cabling, and reinstalling the drive side chain ring/crank arm. I am waiting to find a Raleigh cotter for the other side, so unless I want to try riding with one pedal (which I might try), I'm not going anywhere. I installed a 22t cog and a new 1/8" single speed chain.

https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3832/1...8c3ef7c6_z.jpgSA AW Hub Parts by velocivixen, on https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3827/1...55f91b3c_z.jpgSA AW 3 Speed Hub by velocivixen, on Flickr

I think I will go with 451 bsd wheels, despite the fact there there are fewer choices for rims/tires. I hope that if I go with the larger wheel I can get some modern brakes on there. Thoughts?

BigChief 06-21-15 04:59 AM

I see that your hub came with a 15t cog. I figure Raleigh used that to make up for the smaller wheel diameter. Won't the gearing be too low with a 22t cog?

noglider 06-21-15 07:40 AM

The gearing will be too low. Do the arithmetic. I'm surprised that Raleigh got the original gearing right on the Twenty.

Your idea to use 451 rims is a good one, since you might be able to put good brakes on it that way.

There are dynohubs for small wheels. Check it out at Peter White Cycles. If you use a hub meant for big wheels, you get too-high voltage, as Rudi says, and you also get more friction. You could get by this way. Lots of lights can handle the excessive voltage, and maybe you won't care about the friction, either. But ideally, you would use a purpose-built hub.

Velocivixen 06-21-15 08:54 AM

Good Morning. OK, so you think I should just try the bike with the origina 15 tooth & go from there? I also have the original 18 tooth cog from the Phillips bike if I needed an in between.

Thanks for the advice.

noglider 06-21-15 09:26 AM

Yes try the 15T or do the arithmetic. I don't remember the chainring size. If 15T is too high, the 18T will be low enough or too low.

Sixty Fiver 06-21-15 09:49 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17913058)
Good Morning. OK, so you think I should just try the bike with the origina 15 tooth & go from there? I also have the original 18 tooth cog from the Phillips bike if I needed an in between.

Thanks for the advice.

The 15 tooth cog is going to make the 3rd gear really high... and here is a little bit of obscure information.

R20's usually need odd numbered cogs because the chainstay and dropouts don't offer much adjustment for chain tension and almost functions like a bike with vertical dropouts... even numbered cogs tend to not fit as well.

The dropout is normal length but slopes upward at a sharp angle, I have fitted even numbered cogs but to do that have had to mill the dropout a little... a replacement cog only costs $5.00 (new).

Our 20's all have a 19 in the rear... this made things like climbing Clinton street fairly easy and I even rode her 20 over the mountain and up to the to the start point for zoobombing one night. With this you give up a little top gear but a 20 is not a racing bike and spinning is good for the knees. :D

My wife found that with the lower gear she could climb hills rather painlessly and Portland has enough of those.

Sixty Fiver 06-21-15 09:54 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17912449)
My update to the R20 involved the SA AW hub disassemble & very deep clean, finish brake & shifter cabling, and reinstalling the drive side chain ring/crank arm. I am waiting to find a Raleigh cotter for the other side, so unless I want to try riding with one pedal (which I might try), I'm not going anywhere. I installed a 22t cog and a new 1/8" single speed chain.

https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3832/1...8c3ef7c6_z.jpgSA AW Hub Parts by velocivixen, on https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3827/1...55f91b3c_z.jpgSA AW 3 Speed Hub by velocivixen, on Flickr

I think I will go with 451 bsd wheels, despite the fact there there are fewer choices for rims/tires. I hope that if I go with the larger wheel I can get some modern brakes on there. Thoughts?

Wanna come and work for me ?

I always tell folks that AW hubs rarely need to be torn down because they almost never fail... the dog clutch on your hub looks pretty fresh and most of the 20's you come across tend to be pretty low mileage as many saw them as a portable / travel bike and not a serious daily driver.

As for the 451 rims... I am sure Universal stocks them or can order them in for you and these will usually be high quality BMX wheels, the recumbent shop should also have stock as 451 wheels are used on a number of 'bents.

If I had not given away my last set of stock 451 wheels I'd pop them in the mail for you... those also had a dynahub in the rear which is a plus.

w1gfh 06-21-15 09:55 AM

The 18T sprocket on my Twenty feels a bit "too low" for my taste. I may swap it for a 15T.

Also, being new to the Twenty, I'm getting a little confused by wheel options:

• Stock wheels: Steel rims, 20 x 1.75, 36H, 451mm?
• 406mm alloy Option: more choices? Stock brakes must be replaced?
• 451mm alloy Option: fewer choices? Stock brakes can be used?

Velocivixen 06-21-15 09:58 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17913140)
Yes try the 15T or do the arithmetic. I don't remember the chainring size. If 15T is too high, the 18T will be low enough or too low.

OK, so given my wheel/tire size a 46 chainring with 15t cog gives 59.8 gear inches. I'll try that out for awhile. Thanks!

Velocivixen 06-21-15 10:02 AM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 17913230)
The 18T sprocket on my Twenty feels a bit "too low" for my taste. I may swap it for a 15T.

Also, being new to the Twenty, I'm getting a little confused by wheel options:

• Stock wheels: Steel rims, 20 x 1.75, 36H, 451mm?
• 406mm alloy Option: more choices? Stock brakes must be replaced?
• 451mm alloy Option: fewer choices? Stock brakes can be used?

Hi, I'm with you on being new to the Raeigh Twenty (aka R20). Here's the scoop. In the UK this bike came with 451 bsd wheels and the tires will have fractional numbers such as 20 x 1 3/8". When exporting to the US, Raleigh decided to go with the 406 because it's standard with BMX bikes. Those tires will read, for example, 20 x 1.75". You will find far more rims and tires going with the 406. However, the 406 rims require long reach brake arms, and the 451 can go with shorter brake arms because of the height difference (won't explain the math). Sheldon Brown shows how to make a drop bold to essentially lower the mounting spot for a modern brake to work.

In order for us to help you tell us what your wheel and or tire size is.

Sixty Fiver 06-21-15 10:08 AM


Originally Posted by w1gfh (Post 17913230)
The 18T sprocket on my Twenty feels a bit "too low" for my taste. I may swap it for a 15T.

Also, being new to the Twenty, I'm getting a little confused by wheel options:

You may have got one of those 20's that was built on a Friday by a drunken Welshman... every once in a while I have found one, or a secondary brand like a Phillips, that has just enough variance in the chainstay length to make even cogs fit well.

They usually sit too far forward or cannot be pulled back far enough for proper chain tension.

The R20 was originally designed with a 451 wheel and had steel calipers and levers, the export version was fitted with 406 wheels and had long reach alloy brakes and alloy levers which do not make for solid braking.

The 406 is a common wheel size on this side of the pond so this made sense, 451 wheels still tend to be harder to find.

If you live somewhere flat the stock 15 tooth gear is ok but gives the bike steps of 43/57/76 gear inches and the 76 can be a little high for some folks and 57 gear inches is not a good primary gear... second is supposed to be the main gear but on a three speed this turns the third gear into a masher.

The 17 gives 38/50/67 and the 67 is a nice cruising gear for a 35 pound upright bicycle.

The 19 gives 35/45/60 which is good for 35 pound upright bikes that always tend to be toting groceries and need to climb more hills.

The 17 or 18 (if you can fit it) seems to be the sweet spot... it makes third gear your main cruising gear.

noglider 06-21-15 10:32 AM

You're right that 406 was (and is) a very common size here, but BMX bikes didn't exist yet then. We rode "high rise" bikes with tall handlebars and banana seats. Mine had an AW hub and giant stick shift.

w1gfh 06-21-15 08:21 PM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17913264)
Hi, I'm with you on being new to the Raeigh Twenty (aka R20). Here's the scoop. In the UK this bike came with 451 bsd wheels and the tires will have fractional numbers such as 20 x 1 3/8". When exporting to the US, Raleigh decided to go with the 406 because it's standard with BMX bikes. Those tires will read, for example, 20 x 1.75". You will find far more rims and tires going with the 406. However, the 406 rims require long reach brake arms, and the 451 can go with shorter brake arms because of the height difference (won't explain the math). Sheldon Brown shows how to make a drop bold to essentially lower the mounting spot for a modern brake to work.

In order for us to help you tell us what your wheel and or tire size is.

20 x 1.75 (ISO 47-406) steel rims, alloy Altenberger brakes, TCWIII hub

https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3817/1...b30a255c_z.jpgIMAG0660 by w1gfh

Close up of corrosion on front wheel rim
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/317/18...111fc940_z.jpgFront 20" wheel - corrosion by w1gfh

browngw 06-21-15 08:22 PM

The time has finally come! I now own a Raleigh 3 speed. Years in the waiting and lots of work to do but looking forward to it. 1979 DL1. AW hub dated 79.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1432920152

Velocivixen 06-21-15 08:33 PM

@browngw - what a beauty. What are your plans for it?

I bought new Kenda Kwest tires & new tubes for the R20 today, added a 1970's red rear reflector to the back of the Pletscher rack since the one on the fender is missing. Reinstalled the 15 tooth cog and shortened the chain accordingly. I filed a cotter as best I could to be similar to a Raleigh and installed. I removed and cleaned the grips, reinstalled and adjusted along with the brake levers and shifter so they're just right. Added a Crane Suzu striker bell and away I went for about 3 miles total. It's not perfect, but today was the FIRST day of real riding. I would ride around then stop at home thinking I was done, but then turned right around and went out again. It's super FUN!

I went to A Better Cycle Coop today and they said if I bring in my Raleigh cotter they would use a belt sander to file down the cotters they sell to match the angle/pitch of the raleigh. They also said they could & would shave/face the bb and rethread if I wanted. Won't make any big decisions now.

I will overhaul the lower part of the headset and overhaul the pedals in the coming days.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/271/18...341a392a_z.jpgNew Kenda Kwest 20" x 1.5" Tires by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/458/19...7c002377_z.jpg1970's Reflector by velocivixen, on Flickr
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/473/19...6f0256f8_z.jpgVV Out for Adventure R20 by velocivixen, on Flickr

BigChief 06-22-15 04:39 AM


Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 17914568)
I would ride around then stop at home thinking I was done, but then turned right around and went out again. It's super FUN

So glad to hear you got that feeling from your new bike. That's the thing I can't seem to explain to my friends that don't understand why I like to ride old fashioned bikes of , to them, "lesser quality". Some bikes are just plain fun.

SirMike1983 06-22-15 06:25 AM

Sometimes a light roadster type bike is neither English, nor a 3-speed, but still similar to English bikes. Some manufacturers took the light roadster design and incorporated their own way of doing things. That can mean different frame angles, hub configurations, and gear types. This Westfield Sports Roadster is an English-style bike, but made in Massachusetts with a single speed coaster brake in the American style rather than a Sturmey Archer hub.

The Bike Shed: 1940 Westfield Sports Roadster Bicycle

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zqd-_s4lLA...1.15%2B003.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SBDL1_tNqB...1.15%2B006.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GnRDHCigZq...1.15%2B007.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tT6uwrEYwV...1.15%2B013.JPG


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