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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

clubman 12-03-23 06:39 PM


Originally Posted by Small cog (Post 23089376)
I would think not very much at all, here is my Carlton which had a derailleur originally and I fitted a SA hub, you could use a clamp on cable pulley on the top tube if you wanted the gear cable to run that way or run it down the down tube as I have done, either way it will probably be better for it.

The pulley at the top tube/seat tube is generally a better setup. If the wheel shifts in the drop-outs, the SA indexing stays unchanged as the cable joins the indicator at about 90 degrees to the axle movement. The lower chainstay path can be harder to keep aligned and in gear. Then again, finding the older fulcrum stop/pulley/clamps assembly with a proper length of cable can be harder to find. Sorry to nit-pick, cool Carlton.

Cyclespanner 12-04-23 04:19 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 23089845)
The pulley at the top tube/seat tube is generally a better setup. If the wheel shifts in the drop-outs, the SA indexing stays unchanged as the cable joins the indicator at about 90 degrees to the axle movement. The lower chainstay path can be harder to keep aligned and in gear. Then again, finding the older fulcrum stop/pulley/clamps assembly with a proper length of cable can be harder to find. Sorry to nit-pick, cool Carlton.

I have 2 cycles on the road currently, both with the lower chain-stay path.
Once the correct tension is set, that method is as good as any.

My opinion (for what it's worth) if the axle moves in the drop-outs, something requires attention.

Wheel removal with either method means the cable has to be detached anyway.

BTW I was brought up to call the 'axle' a spindle. Cars and trucks have axles.
On 2 wheeler's; it's a spindle.

Compared to a brake cable, a gear cable tension should not be enough to unduly compress the cable outer (once it's 'bedded in) and the diligent operator should already have the cable thoroughly lubricated and waterproofed.

clubman 12-04-23 06:52 AM

Cranks have spindles and hubs have axles in my world. Canadian nomenclature parallels the Kings as a rule. It's not always about improper maintenance, sometimes you need to fix a flat on the road so getting that exact position in the slots is a little important. Of course readjusting the indicator works too.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to be a fussy little nerd. I've had more than a few 3 speeds with chainstay routing. Worked fine but I prefer the classic path.

Cyclespanner 12-04-23 07:23 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 23090131)
Cranks have spindles and hubs have axles in my world. Canadian nomenclature parallels the Kings as a rule. It's not always about improper maintenance, sometimes you need to fix a flat on the road so getting that exact position in the slots is a little important. Of course readjusting the indicator works too.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to be a fussy little nerd. I've had more than a few 3 speeds with chainstay routing. Worked fine but I prefer the classic path.

My response wasn't intended as a criticism, merely my own view of the issue.

Returning a dismounted wheel exactly isn't critically important; the wheels alignment and security is.
Both cable routing solutions still require fine adjustment when the re-connection is completed.
We can both agree, both methods have merit.

My Seasons Greetings to you and all.

SirMike1983 12-04-23 07:52 AM

The only small issue I've had with the lower shifter cable path is gunk accumulating on the pulley. It was never enough to stop the shifting from working, but I did occasionally have to clean gunky dirt on and around the pulley. I still have two bikes with this set up (1974 Sports and 1978 DL-1), and they both shift fine. I commuted on that 1974 Sports for a few years and it always served me well in that regard, low cable and all.

elcraft 12-04-23 08:04 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 23089845)
The pulley at the top tube/seat tube is generally a better setup. If the wheel shifts in the drop-outs, the SA indexing stays unchanged as the cable joins the indicator at about 90 degrees to the axle movement. The lower chainstay path can be harder to keep aligned and in gear. Then again, finding the older fulcrum stop/pulley/clamps assembly with a proper length of cable can be harder to find. Sorry to nit-pick, cool Carlton.


My experience favors the top tube/seat tube pulley set up; but for different reasons. I find that my comically large feet will occasionally strike the indicator shift cable whilst pedaling (particularly in traffic or commuting situations), if the chain stay routing is used. Not great for cable wear and perfect for finding that misalignment caused “neutral” gear in the hub! The cable also tends to remain cleaner and grit free, in this location.

If one is running multiple cogs on the hub, as in a hybrid drive situation, then the chain stay path remains accessible for one’s derailleur control. This would, of course, be a rarer issue than most would face.

markk900 12-04-23 08:20 AM

Another perspective for cable routing on a converted derailleur frame: use the original rear derailleur path and a bare cable from the upper cable stop. On my Trek conversion this meant running the bare cable over the original plastic guide under the BB. No pulley needed. Works great too.

Cable stops to replace the down tube shift lever are readily available as well, or just get a cable stop for a three speed.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bb9ae47a6.jpeg

Cyclespanner 12-04-23 08:26 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23090160)
The only small issue I've had with the lower shifter cable path is gunk accumulating on the pulley. It was never enough to stop the shifting from working, but I did occasionally have to clean gunky dirt on and around the pulley. I still have two bikes with this set up (1974 Sports and 1978 DL-1), and they both shift fine. I commuted on that 1974 Sports for a few years and it always served me well in that regard, low cable and all.

Of course the realization became apparent that the lower pulley could be discarded altogether, to be replaced by a continuous shrouded cable (needing periodic lubrication to retain smoothness).

I must admit there's a certain 'Steampunkt' appeal to exposed cables and pulleys.

In the end, I don't see any modern cycles festooned with these obsolete features.

I can't deny, for the older machines, these items are period correct, are functional and contribute to the esthetic ethos and charm they represent.

thumpism 12-04-23 08:48 AM

"Extremely rare shifter" on this old, old rod-brake Raleigh.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...07759660175421

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...bA&oe=6572BA45

tcs 12-04-23 08:53 AM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23090089)
BTW I was brought up to call the 'axle' a spindle. Cars and trucks have axles.
On 2 wheeler's; it's a spindle.

Okay. The Sturmey-Archer part is called an 'axle' in both the gear hubs and Dynohubs™️ and has been from the earliest days. The little doowhicky that does the shifting is called an axle key. The hold-it-to-the-bike fasteners are called axle nuts. :)

Fun fact: The BSA 1949 hub instructions refer to a spindle, but the 1954 instructions call it an axle.

Cyclespanner 12-04-23 09:20 AM


Originally Posted by tcs (Post 23090209)
Okay. The Sturmey-Archer part is called an 'axle' in both the gear hubs and Dynohubs™️ and has been from the earliest days. The little doowhicky that does the shifting is called an axle key. The hold-it-to-the-bike fasteners are called axle nuts. :)

Fun fact: The BSA 1949 hub instructions refer to a spindle, but the 1954 instructions call it an axle.

After a little research I'm persuaded that an axle remains stationary while a spindle rotates.
Am I reduced to eating my hat?

SirMike1983 12-04-23 10:02 AM

Very nice early Raleigh project there. I have a 1938 Raleigh US market catalog, which dates the arrival of Raleigh in the US formally to around 1933. I'm thinking that bike is a one-off 1920s era bike (looks like old nickel plating rather than chrome to me). Looks like a good challenge project for someone. Not easy to find appropriate parts for the early ones here in the US.

Cyclespanner 12-04-23 11:02 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23090264)
Very nice early Raleigh project there. I have a 1938 Raleigh US market catalog, which dates the arrival of Raleigh in the US formally to around 1933. I'm thinking that bike is a one-off 1920s era bike (looks like old nickel plating rather than chrome to me). Looks like a good challenge project for someone. Not easy to find appropriate parts for the early ones here in the US.

Yes, 1933.
An Oxford graduate named Hamilton Osgood, after his return to his US roots and wishing to become the USA agent for Raleigh and persuade the company of his convictions he personally ordered 8 Raleigh bicycles from Nottingham and assembled them in his cellar.
One of these he rode up the streets of Manhattan to keep an appointment with the president of Abercrombie and Fitch and made a favorable impression.
That became Raleigh's initial introduction to the USA.
Osgood moved to Boston from where he took delivery of cases, each containing 25 partially assembled bicycles, becoming Raleigh Cycle Distributor, USA.
That answers the 'mystery' of why Raleigh's are so common in Boston.

That would be a feather in someone's cap; to find one of the original 8 Osgood imported.

Presumably any earlier dated cycles would have been imported by private individuals or anytime afterwards for that matter.

Small cog 12-05-23 12:37 AM

An interesting Raleigh 3 speed on UK Ebay in Lincolnshire if anyone is in that area, the headbadge is 1960s and it is in pretty good condition with a red paint job, GB alloy brakes and a starting price of 99p, I am not sure if I am allowed to post links to sales here so search vintage Raleigh bicycle with settings to newly listed it should come up, this is the best photo.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a8616e9dac.jpg

FML123 12-05-23 09:42 AM

Perfect! this is exactly what I’m looking for! https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sutherl...-5-sturmey.pdf

Cyclespanner 12-07-23 02:26 PM

I'd like to compile a list of Raleigh 3 speed upright utility roadsters (UK, US, Canadian post war, until their demise in the 1990's?).
Model names, when introduced and discontinued.
During that period the frames changed in subtle ways, including basic geometry.
So it would be a nice 'historical' catalogue, which as far as I know hasn't been put together before.
As these common, everyday cycles were Raleigh's 'bread and butter' it seems a shame these details aren't recorded in one place.

I've posted this on a UK based forum asking for UK home models.
It's obvious to me the cycles sold over the pond were different to UK examples, so that would be an interesting sub-list.
To minimize the list I think it sensible to exclude the none Raleigh branded machines, at least for now.

I continue my saga, reading through all past posts on this thread; up to page 674, post 16,844!
I'm pretty certain there are active members here who probably know more about this subject than we in the UK.

Your contributions will be very welcome.

Small cog 12-07-23 07:52 PM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23093739)
I'd like to compile a list of Raleigh 3 speed upright utility roadsters (UK, US, Canadian post war, until their demise in the 1990's?).
Model names, when introduced and discontinued.
During that period the frames changed in subtle ways, including basic geometry.
So it would be a nice 'historical' catalogue, which as far as I know hasn't been put together before.
As these common, everyday cycles were Raleigh's 'bread and butter' it seems a shame these details aren't recorded in one place.

I've posted this on a UK based forum asking for UK home models.
It's obvious to me the cycles sold over the pond were different to UK examples, so that would be an interesting sub-list.
To minimize the list I think it sensible to exclude the none Raleigh branded machines, at least for now.

I continue my saga, reading through all past posts on this thread; up to page 674, post 16,844!
I'm pretty certain there are active members here who probably know more about this subject than we in the UK.

Your contributions will be very welcome.

Not quite as bold as your project but I have saved photos of every colour Raleigh Sports I have seen and have 14 including 2 tone models mostly from the 60s and 70s.
I have also complied photos of the different marques the Sports model was sold under that were owned by Raleigh, the same cable braked 26" wheel model again mostly from the 60s and 70s and have 23 including those made for chain stores such as Halfords, I feel I am able to admit this now.

Cyclespanner 12-08-23 04:15 AM


Originally Posted by Small cog (Post 23093983)
Not quite as bold as your project but I have saved photos of every colour Raleigh Sports I have seen and have 14 including 2 tone models mostly from the 60s and 70s.
I have also complied photos of the different marques the Sports model was sold under that were owned by Raleigh, the same cable braked 26" wheel model again mostly from the 60s and 70s and have 23 including those made for chain stores such as Halfords, I feel I am able to admit this now.

I'm also 'hoovering' photographs from the net, of these cycles.
Catalogues can be found online, but are often in a format other than my favoured jpeg files.
Also, not all are there. It's a shame Tony Hadland's book is so expensive as I'm sure many of my questions may be answered there.
BTW I opened the bidding on the red cycle you highlighted, which I'm sure is a mid 1960's 'Riviera'.

SirMike1983 12-08-23 08:27 AM

The Hadland Raleigh book and the newer Sturmey Archer book are my two favorite bicycle books. They aren't cheap, but the writing is clear and they're loaded with photographs, advertisements, and other material. After going through those two books, found myself wishing someone had done the same for the Schwinn and Columbia brands. I have other bicycle books, but the level of detail and visual materials in those two Hadland books are a cut above. Good items to have on the Christmas list this year if you don't have them already.

Cyclespanner 12-08-23 09:42 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 23094252)
The Hadland Raleigh book and the newer Sturmey Archer book are my two favorite bicycle books. They aren't cheap, but the writing is clear and they're loaded with photographs, advertisements, and other material. After going through those two books, found myself wishing someone had done the same for the Schwinn and Columbia brands. I have other bicycle books, but the level of detail and visual materials in those two Hadland books are a cut above. Good items to have on the Christmas list this year if you don't have them already.

Yes I have the revised S/A volume.
The seminal work but not well edited (occasional conflict between the two authors) and reams of repetition. A dull read in my humble opinion.
Though there are lots of photo's, many of them are too small.
You'd think the initial description of the workings of the hub would be more elaborate; instead there are only a few lines and a description assuming you know already.
Ok, this is the only game in town, but I'd like to examine the Raleigh book thoroughly before shelling out the high prices being asked.

markk900 12-08-23 08:57 PM

Which is the “newer S/A book”? I have both Hadland books (Raleigh and S/A) and a couple of other Raleigh histories but not aware of a newer S/A tome….

Cyclespanner 12-09-23 05:10 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 23095089)
Which is the “newer S/A book”? I have both Hadland books (Raleigh and S/A) and a couple of other Raleigh histories but not aware of a newer S/A tome….

Hi Mark.
The revised S/A book has ISBN 978-1-9993429-2-0 (2020).
It has a green and yellow cover.

Here's 'news' for you, the Hadland Raleigh book has just been revised and published.
At the moment only available via the VCC at £55. Unfortunately you have to be a member, their annual subscription is £36. So I'm toying with going down that rabbit hole.

Edit: joined the VCC and bought the book....a total of £91.
OUCH!!!

Edit 2. The new revised Hadland Raleigh book arrived today.
Better make sure I don't drop it on my foot!
Only had time for a quick glance.
I used to be a book designer and frankly could have done a better job.
It is well printed and bound.
A couple of criticisms; nearly all photographs are too small for detail identification purposes. Why print a working frame drawing so small none of the caption details are readable? Pre-war models seem to be well covered as are the postwar lightweight racers. BUT very little coverage of the later 3 speeders (which I was hoping to see).
Going in for kidney surgery tomorrow, so if I'm spared, I'll bring a more considered review afterwards.

bikamper 12-09-23 06:40 PM

Out and about this cold evening on the the 68 Superbe.
https://i.imgur.com/wahCHz8l.jpg

Cyclespanner 12-11-23 02:19 PM


Originally Posted by Small cog (Post 23091047)
An interesting Raleigh 3 speed on UK Ebay in Lincolnshire if anyone is in that area, the headbadge is 1960s and it is in pretty good condition with a red paint job, GB alloy brakes and a starting price of 99p, I am not sure if I am allowed to post links to sales here so search vintage Raleigh bicycle with settings to newly listed it should come up, this is the best photo.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a8616e9dac.jpg

Phew!
Just 'bagged' the above cycle for £31.
Looking at the photo's, very original; all it needs is a shine, a lube job and a decent Brooks saddle and a pair of pedals.
Waiting to hear from the vendor, to agree payment an arrange my trip to him; 4hrs there and back.
Lord knows where I'm going to put it.

Thanks to 'small cog', it's all his fault!

EDIT
191 mile round trip, 2 days before kidney surgery. 6 hours total, having had to stop every 20 miles to pass blood. Never again!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1963df33c9.jpg

1989Pre 12-11-23 03:37 PM


Originally Posted by Cyclespanner (Post 23097474)
Phew!
Just 'bagged' the above cycle for £31.
Looking at the photo's, very original; all it needs is a shine, a lube job and a decent Brooks saddle and a pair of pedals.
Waiting to hear from the vendor, to agree payment an arrange my trip to him; 4hrs there and back.
Lord knows where I'm going to put it.

It looks about a '67? I did not know GB brakes appeared on Raleigh Sports. Thanks for saving this one. The red should look stunning pretty soon.


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