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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

RobbieTunes 04-15-12 12:47 PM


Originally Posted by lotek (Post 14032283)
Robbie,
I had a pair of Tufo Elite Roads about 5 or 6 years ago, I didn't like the fact they were not
repairable, I also had a horrid time with the tape, I used the original tape which created a sticky
gooey mess on my rims. The other issue I had with them was I thought they were rather dead
feeling, worse than the original barum tubulars. Maybe I should give them a second chance,
any recommended models?

Marty

Sorry to get back so late, Marty,

I've not had that problem with the tape, at all.
In fact, it came off with the tires on a swap, and I used Mineral Spirits to clean the rim pretty easily.

I like the S 33 Pro tires. They're not "dead" but they have a very wide PSI range.
I've used them from 95 to 135, and they go to 160. I've had best results around 120-125. They get a little hard after that.

I'd love to try their ultralight models, but my experience with 700x18 Panaracer Tecnovas felt like a simple rubber coating on the rim; super hard.

due ruote 05-31-12 05:06 PM

Base tape questions.

I have a few old tubulars in various states of removal from their base tape. I know latex is the prescribed method of re-attachment, but can someone tell me what would be so wrong about using Weldwood contact cement? My experience with latex hasn't been so good, actually. I can't get it to stick very well, and then the container dries up before my next attempt, and I throw it out.

Also, the last time I tried this I re-glued the tape onto a loose tire, and when I went to use it (on the road, as a spare, of course) I discovered the base tape was too short. I wound up tearing it while stretching it onto the rim. So I gather that the glue-up should take place on a rim. My plan is to stretch the base tape onto a dry rim, glue the tire onto it, inflate, let the glue cure overnight, remove tire, and glue to the rim as usual. Does that sound right?

clasher 05-31-12 06:37 PM

Tubular folks, I have some questions. First off, I had a nice tubular wheelset I rebuild from a sweet score last year... one fiamme rim and one with no markings but the same ERD, they were laced to campagnolo record hubs. I rebuilt the wheels with stainless spokes and used some panaracer practice 23mm tires. I hit a pothole and I think the rear rim is beyond saving, so I left the bike over the winter and somehow lucked out and scored some normandy hubs laced to some mavic sport rims. The sticker on the rims is pretty old old school and they are stamped with "mavic sports" beside the sticker. Are these rims a worthy replacement for the fiamme that I destroyed?

Also, I realise that a big fella at 220 or so shouldn't be on such narrow tires, so I want to upgrade to something wider, like 28 or 32mm and the only gumwall options in that range seem to be the tufo diamond at 28 and the paragi roubaix at 27mm. Tufo diamonds are apparently made in 30mm width but only have a red sidewall and that would be unacceptable to me and my 60s px-10.

So tubular gurus... should I relace the campy hubs to the mavic rims or hold out for a fiamme replacement? And should I swtich to paragi-roubaix or tufo and go with the whole tape thing?

smontanaro 07-08-12 07:53 PM

I'm pretty thoroughly disgusted with the Continental Gatorskin tubulars I got not that long ago. I was looking to get something else and thought the Tufos looked pretty reasonable. I have a silly question about them though. Can I use plain old rim cement or must I use their rim tape?

Thx,

Skip Montanaro

Dawes-man 07-09-12 08:05 PM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 14455476)
I'm pretty thoroughly disgusted with the Continental Gatorskin tubulars I got not that long ago. I was looking to get something else and thought the Tufos looked pretty reasonable. I have a silly question about them though. Can I use plain old rim cement or must I use their rim tape?

Thx,

Skip Montanaro

I can't give a definitive or informed answer, I'm afraid, but given that most tubular tyres are made with cement in mind but are absolutely fine with rim tape (which I have only ever used, but by Miyata, not Tufo) I would think using Tufo tyres with cement will be fine. The other thing to consider is that Tufo wants to sell their tyres to everyone and many people shun rim tape so they are unlikely to develop a tyre that can ONLY be used with tape. I hope this helps...

smontanaro 07-10-12 04:12 PM

Thanks. I went ahead and got a pair.

S

caloso 07-10-12 04:24 PM

Re Vittoria Rally: I'd bought a couple as spares a few months ago because the price was right. Mounted one on Saturday and took it out for a test ride on Monday's commute. Very round and smooth riding, as good as the much more expensive Schwalbe it replaced. I only have about 10 miles on it so I can't comment on the the durability, but it wasn't the hard, lumpy mess that some folks have had with Rallys. Maybe I lucked out and got a good batch.

Chombi 11-19-12 07:37 PM

I would have to disagree with WesternBikeworks about the Schwalbe Milanos. I have them on two of my bikes already and they are so much better than the Vittoria Rallies that they recommended to you, hands down. Quality control on the tire is so much better, straighter base tapes, straighter treads, clean construction, no lumpiness at the valve area and the tires are nice and supple not so stiff like the Rallies that seem to need some road break in to properly bed them down to the rim completely, and sometimes they still have some gaps under the valve area even after some miles. Best thing is, they ride a lot smoother than the Rallies. I love the Milanos so much that I'm buying another set for my project bike soon, so that will be three bikes on Mianos soon.

Chombi

Originally Posted by lotek (Post 14031505)
I wrote to WesternBikeworks since I see they don't list Gommitalia anymore (they were special promotion and they won't carry them again),
shame since I could get Espressos for under $50.
I asked about the Schwalbe Milano and they said they stopped carrying them due to lots of customer complaints
about quality. They felt the Vittoria Rallye was a better training tire.
Has anyone used the Vittoria Rubino tubular, or any of the Kenda tubulars?
need to find new general use tire since I can't get espressos cheaply anymore

anymore.


iab 11-20-12 07:33 AM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 14455476)
I'm pretty thoroughly disgusted with the Continental Gatorskin tubulars I got not that long ago. I was looking to get something else and thought the Tufos looked pretty reasonable. I have a silly question about them though. Can I use plain old rim cement or must I use their rim tape?

Thx,

Skip Montanaro

I have used glue with the Tufos with no problems.

Don't like the tires much. Rode like a truck.

smontanaro 11-20-12 12:57 PM


Originally Posted by iab (Post 14967331)
I have used glue with the Tufos with no problems.

Don't like the tires much. Rode like a truck.

Thanks Dave. I've really had nothing to compare them with other than the Gatorskins which didn't last that long. I'm in the market for some new tubulars. (I can't recall what my RRB came with, and the tires on my Medici are old and crusty.) I've been out on the RRB a few times so far and really like it. The Medici has only had an around-the-block shakedown. Its tires are so old I wouldn't trust them farther than I'm willing to walk. (I'm also short on pedals now, having four bikes and ony two sets of Looks which I have to rotate among them.)

I think I will try some of the Schwalbe Milanos mentioned here and pick up a pair-and-a-spare from Yellow Jersey. That should give me a couple different tires to compare, and leave me with some spares.

Skip

SJX426 11-20-12 01:15 PM

I look forward to your evaluation of the YJ 2+1 compared to those you have ridden.

Chombi 11-20-12 01:43 PM

I recently snagged a pair of NOS, "Made in Italy" 23mm(?...Measured, no markings saying such) Veloflex Criterums (Yah,....the one with the "7/8" bars label on them...:rolleyes::p) and I'm excited to try them out as soon as I finish the project bike they are going on. I've read good reviews on them on this and other forums, but I'm kinda suprised how unimpressive the tires look compared to my Schwalbe Mlanos, as they seem to have some sort of thick latex coating over the edges of their base tapes that might affect the tire's suppleness and maybe make them a bit heavier than the Milanos. I guess the proof will be in the riding of the tires....
BTW, I also noticed that they seem to lose air a bit faster (I have them inflated and stretching on a wheelset already) than my Schwalbes. Could they maybe have latex tubes in them??
Any feedback on Veloflex Criteriums will be very appreciated.....:thumb:

Chombi

lotek 11-20-12 02:14 PM

The veloflex criteriums are based on the Clement Criterium, and yes I do think they're latex tubes.
As for the latex coating on the base tape I seem to recall that some tires had latex on the base tape
that some users scraped off, issues with adhesion of glue to latex?
FWIW I haven't ridden them but from what I've heard they ride like the old Clements, a true
tubular experience.

Marty

gomango 11-20-12 05:35 PM

The Criteriums are on three bicycles here.

I just counted.

A De Rosa Giro d' Italia, a second set of wheels for my Colnago Elegant and my older Chris Kvale.

One of the nicer high performance tubs I've ever ridden.

Extra smooth on varied roads and confidence inspiring on descents.

Really made for fast recreational and racing applications, mine seem to wear fairly quickly though.

They don't seem to flat all that much and that's saying something on the crappy blacktop roads up in Ely by our cabin.

In fact, they survive a two mile stretch of class 5 gravel to even make it out to the paved roads.

I've seen some decent pricing at Ribble and Velomine.

Hard to beat a high quality tub. :)

Chombi 11-20-12 06:13 PM

Thanks for the feedback so far on the Veloflex Crits guys! Maybe they will push me to finally finish my project over the holidays....now if my relative would just give me cash for X-mas to buy the missing handlebar, longer stem, cables, brake lever hoods and toe straps for the bike, It might have a chance to happen before the year's end!:D...Oi. I still have a wheelset to build too!.....:eek:

Chombi

gomango 11-20-12 06:21 PM


Originally Posted by Chombi (Post 14969520)
Thanks for the feedback so far on the Veloflex Crits guys! Maybe they will push me to finally finish my project over the holidays....now if my relative would just give me cash for X-mas to buy the missing handlebar, longer stem, cables, brake lever hoods and toe straps for the bike, It might have a chance to happen before the year's end!:D...Oi. I still have a wheelset to build too!.....:eek:

Chombi

The only danger you will face with the tires is over use!

Very, very nice, as are all of the Veloflex tires I use.

iab 11-20-12 07:58 PM


Originally Posted by Chombi (Post 14968656)
Any feedback on Veloflex Criteriums will be very appreciated.....:thumb:

Chombi

I rode the Criteriums for 3 seasons. Loved them. Best 23mm tire, period, atmo. Then I tried their 25mm Roubaix.

Even better.

As for the YJ 3 for $50. Worse than the Tufos. I think the Tufos are great compared to the YJ. The YJ should only be carried as spares. And pray you don't get a flat.

Peugeotlover 11-20-12 08:26 PM


Originally Posted by iab (Post 14969824)
I rode the Criteriums for 3 seasons. Loved them. Best 23mm tire, period, atmo. Then I tried their 25mm Roubaix.

Even better.

As for the YJ 3 for $50. Worse than the Tufos. I think the Tufos are great compared to the YJ. The YJ should only be carried as spares. And pray you don't get a flat.


I bought my Raleigh Int'l from vicsclassicbikes.com in 8/2011. Vic supplied the bike with two new tanwall Servizio Corse tires. I have been riding it for over a year now. The tires are round, they will hold their 110 psi for close to a week, they grip well when I lean low in corners, I have ridden on gravel for short distances. I always use tire savers.

I am just wondering why you are making them out to be junk? What am I missing?

gomango 11-20-12 08:36 PM


Originally Posted by Peugeotlover (Post 14969928)
I bought my Raleigh Int'l from vicsclassicbikes.com in 8/2011. Vic supplied the bike with two new tanwall Servizio Corse tires. I have been riding it for over a year now. The tires are round, they will hold their 110 psi for close to a week, they grip well when I lean low in corners, I have ridden on gravel for short distances. I always use tire savers.

I am just wondering why you are making them out to be junk? What am I missing?

Here's the thing.

I have experienced a short attempt at using those tires.

The batches are highly inconsistent.

My pair were out of round and very bumpy near the stems.

I had a sidewall bulge that scared me.

Mind you, I grew up on tubs. I didn't just read an article and hop on the bandwagon. Nor their cheap price!

The real trick is to buy a very nice set of tires like Chombi did.

I will be utterly surprised if he isn't thrilled, as he will be the first unhappy customer I have heard of.

Try some for yourself, as I will give a shot to the 25mm Roubaixs iab recommended.

I would listen to his recommendations.

Road Fan 11-20-12 08:40 PM


Originally Posted by Peugeotlover (Post 14969928)
I bought my Raleigh Int'l from vicsclassicbikes.com in 8/2011. Vic supplied the bike with two new tanwall Servizio Corse tires. I have been riding it for over a year now. The tires are round, they will hold their 110 psi for close to a week, they grip well when I lean low in corners, I have ridden on gravel for short distances. I always use tire savers.

I am just wondering why you are making them out to be junk? What am I missing?

I'm confused, too. It's fashionable to talk about the crappiness of low-priced tubulars, but usually it's by people who haven't used them for a significant time, or don't have realistic expectations of tubulars in general. But Iab, that's not you. Wha' hoppen? I've had some in use for a while, though not more than 1000 miles, with no real problems. Not as nice as my Challenge 27 mm Paris-Roubaix or the 21 mm Gommitalia Espresso, but better than Conti Giro.

Six jours 11-20-12 08:52 PM

I wonder if it depends upon expectations, or perhaps the definition of "acceptable".

I've had uniformly poor results with Giros and Servicio Corsas. Most have been lumpy enough that I can feel it on a smooth road, and few have lasted long enough to wear out - most puncture every few hundred miles for me.

I've also had decidedly mixed results with Challenge tires, both tubular and clincher. Perhaps 25% have been very badly out of round, which I consider unacceptable for a fairly expensive tire. When they're right, they're great, but I hate having to exchange so many of them.

I grew up racing on Italian-made Vittoria CGs, CXs, and Paves. They lasted a long time, gave no mounting troubles, and could be counted on to be round and smooth. I expect the same from tubulars today, but have found that Dugast and FMB are the only tires that consistently deliver those results. Which is why most of my bikes use clinchers these days...

Road Fan 11-20-12 09:08 PM

It could be my metrics are off, too. It's been a long time since I've ridden a set of Italian Vittorias. I have a couple, but still. The trucklike properties and twisty-snake look of Giros are unforgettable - yuck! Most of my Rallyes have not been bad, but one out of four had a carcass failure, and I got a surprise box from BG a while back full of the strangest Rallye failures I've ever seen. But honestly most of my riding the past couple of years has been on a 32 mm Pasela, Challenge P-R tubulars, Conti 3000 28 mm clinchers, and Hetres. The tubulars are getting left home more often, being on non-fendered bikes.

My first tubular bike (the parts were mostly '60s) had latex-tubed D'Allessandros that absorbed glass but were easy to repair, and amazingly supple to ride. I don't recall back then thinking the CG/CXs were comparable replacements. I'm feeling some of the same old zing and smooth bump-handling with my Challenges. The Conti 3000 clinchers (an old design) have very thin casings and lots of little tiny threads visible in the sidewalls, so I think they are also quite supple.

gomango 11-20-12 09:08 PM


Originally Posted by Six jours (Post 14969995)
I wonder if it depends upon expectations, or perhaps the definition of "acceptable".

I've had uniformly poor results with Giros and Servicio Corsas. Most have been lumpy enough that I can feel it on a smooth road, and few have lasted long enough to wear out - most puncture every few hundred miles for me.

I've also had decidedly mixed results with Challenge tires, both tubular and clincher. Perhaps 25% have been very badly out of round, which I consider unacceptable for a fairly expensive tire. When they're right, they're great, but I hate having to exchange so many of them.

I grew up racing on Italian-made Vittoria CGs, CXs, and Paves. They lasted a long time, gave no mounting troubles, and could be counted on to be round and smooth. I expect the same from tubulars today, but have found that Dugast and FMB are the only tires that consistently deliver those results. Which is why most of my bikes use clinchers these days...

I'm sure it does depend on expectations.

I like to go out for a ride and not worry that my equipment will fail.

So, I like to to buy from a company I admire and trust.

I like Veloflex.

BTW Six Jours, I really do enjoy seeing the bicycles you have built.

Really distinctive.

Also, what clinchers are you using and recommending?

Six jours 11-20-12 10:03 PM

I have no experience with Veloflex, but need to change that. I guess I've just been so happy with Dugast and FMB (except for the prices, of course) that when I think about tubulars, those are the names I immediately go to.

For clinchers, I've settled on Challenge PRs for 700c and Hetres for 650b.

In 700c I loved the ride of the Grand Bois Cypres but those tires cut more easily than any tire I've ever used - including uncoated "white strip" pursuit tires for board tracks! The Challenges don't roll quite as well, I don't think, but I've had very good luck with longevity (although folks I trust tell me they've had just the opposite experience.) Everyone seems to love the Gatorskins and Paselas, but they feel like riding through mud to me - they make the difference between barely hanging on to a super-fast paceline and getting dropped, ie. with Challenges or Cypres I can hang, but with Paselas or Gatorskins (or anything from Rivendell, unfortunately) I lose contact. I am definitely looking forward to the new Challenge 30mm Eroicas...

In 650b I've tried fewer tires - including the lightweight Pari-Motos - but haven't found anything with the combination of comfort, speed, and puncture resistance of the Hetres.

gomango 11-20-12 10:43 PM


Originally Posted by Six jours (Post 14970213)
I have no experience with Veloflex, but need to change that. I guess I've just been so happy with Dugast and FMB (except for the prices, of course) that when I think about tubulars, those are the names I immediately go to.

For clinchers, I've settled on Challenge PRs for 700c and Hetres for 650b.

In 700c I loved the ride of the Grand Bois Cypres but those tires cut more easily than any tire I've ever used - including uncoated "white strip" pursuit tires for board tracks! The Challenges don't roll quite as well, I don't think, but I've had very good luck with longevity (although folks I trust tell me they've had just the opposite experience.) Everyone seems to love the Gatorskins and Paselas, but they feel like riding through mud to me - they make the difference between barely hanging on to a super-fast paceline and getting dropped, ie. with Challenges or Cypres I can hang, but with Paselas or Gatorskins (or anything from Rivendell, unfortunately) I lose contact. I am definitely looking forward to the new Challenge 30mm Eroicas...

In 650b I've tried fewer tires - including the lightweight Pari-Motos - but haven't found anything with the combination of comfort, speed, and puncture resistance of the Hetres.

I am also looking forward to the Eroicas.

Checked at the shop today and they will be spendy.

About $75 or so.

There is another version on their way, the Almonzo.

I need a 30mm tire for a new build, so I'll have to wait and see what shows up first.

iab 11-21-12 07:11 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 14969961)
I'm confused, too. It's fashionable to talk about the crappiness of low-priced tubulars, but usually it's by people who haven't used them for a significant time, or don't have realistic expectations of tubulars in general. But Iab, that's not you. Wha' hoppen? I've had some in use for a while, though not more than 1000 miles, with no real problems. Not as nice as my Challenge 27 mm Paris-Roubaix or the 21 mm Gommitalia Espresso, but better than Conti Giro.

I used the YJs for 1 season, probably 2-3K miles on that bike. Never used Conti Giro.

They were round. They weren't lumpy. As near as I could tell, there was little to no wear (first red flag). Grip was OK but certainly not great. Their problem is the sidewall. Seems to be made out of leather for shoe soles. Its almost like they put steel belts in the sidewalls. Needless to say, they are stiff. Even at low pressure it was like riding a solid tire. Every bit of road noise was felt even in my bladder. I had to stop and pee every 30 minutes (OK, I'm kidding there).

I tried the Tufos. Somewhat better. Not great. Not better the Conti 3000 clinchers I ran at the time.

Then instead of being the cheap bastard I usually am, I tried the Criteriums. Trumpets blared. Pigeons were let loose. And the heavens opened. OK, that's crap too, but man those are some smooth tires. I haven't looked back and it is well worth every penny of the extra $60/tire for the Criteriums over the YJs

lotek 11-21-12 08:20 AM

For me it's not about bashing the less expensive tires, it's about the difference between
say the YJs or Giros and the Criteriums, Espressos FMBs or Dugasts.
I think with the less expensive tires one gives up a large portion of what makes tubulars
special. I tried tufos, not particularly inexpensive, and found the ride rather dead, they just
didn't sing like a tubular tire should.
One thing I have noted is that the older less expensive tires for the most part rode
better than their current counterparts. Up to the Clement Futurox they generally
rode pretty well.
Anybody else have that experience? and not don't tell me about buh bump Barums they
were and continue to be terrible!

Marty

repechage 11-21-12 08:34 AM


Originally Posted by lotek (Post 14971030)
...
One thing I have noted is that the older less expensive tires for the most part rode
better than their current counterparts. Up to the Clement Futurox they generally
rode pretty well.
Anybody else have that experience?
Marty

Yes, older tires of middle quality ride pretty darn well.
I have ended up with some, a few by strategic ebay winnings and others on wheels or bikes.
The rubber is well aged, the tires have been good at not picking up puncture inducing debris and the only problem has been the need to rotate them to not wear out the rear prematurely.
Not as ultimate handling as say a high quality silk casing tire but good enough.
For whatever reason, (feedback memory?) I have more confidence cornering aggressively on a tubular than a clincher.

Six jours 11-21-12 10:41 PM


Originally Posted by lotek (Post 14971030)
For me it's not about bashing the less expensive tires, it's about the difference between
say the YJs or Giros and the Criteriums, Espressos FMBs or Dugasts.
I think with the less expensive tires one gives up a large portion of what makes tubulars
special. I tried tufos, not particularly inexpensive, and found the ride rather dead, they just
didn't sing like a tubular tire should.

This sums it up perfectly. It's hard for me to think of any reason to ride cheap tubulars today. Decent clinchers are better in pretty much every way.


Originally Posted by lotek (Post 14971030)
One thing I have noted is that the older less expensive tires for the most part rode
better than their current counterparts. Up to the Clement Futurox they generally
rode pretty well.
Anybody else have that experience? and not don't tell me about buh bump Barums they
were and continue to be terrible!

Marty

Honestly, I can't remember any satisfactory experiences with cheap tubulars. They were just as fragile, out of round, and generally crummy as they are today. I do, though, remember decent mid-priced tubulars. For example, I put about a zillion miles on Conti Sprinters, back when they were $25 apiece (and cheap tires were $9, and handmade cotton racing tires were $50) and thought they were just fine. That, IMO, is what is missing today: decent middle-of-the-road tubulars that do the job without breaking the bank. (And why we're supposed to pretend that Sprinters are good quality racing tires worth $75 each today is completely beyond me!)

sced 11-22-12 08:54 AM


Originally Posted by Six jours (Post 14973549)
This sums it up perfectly. It's hard for me to think of any reason to ride cheap tubulars today. Decent clinchers are better in pretty much every way.

This sums it up perfectly....too.

I've used Ralleys, YJs, and Giros and they neither ride well nor last very long before wearing out. I'm seriously skeptical about spending $150+ for a pair of tires when something like a $22 Lithion has a noticeably nice, supple ride and lasts great.


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