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-   -   Totally Tubular (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154679)

smontanaro 09-04-23 09:58 PM

1989Pre I have a fragment of a memory which I want to attribute to Jan Heine, but can't find the reference for just now. It goes like this.

To determine the maximum pressure for a clincher tire (the number molded into the sidewall), pump the tire up until it blows off the rim. Divide that pressure by two and publish it as the maximum tire pressure. Again, I couldn't find a reference for that story, but that's what I recall reading sometime in the past 5-10 years. It might have been Jan Heine (Renè Herse). Maybe it was Josh Poertner at Silca. In any case, assuming I haven't completely misremembered, it demonstrates that at least the max pressures has little, if anything, to do with performance. It's just low enough to provide a large safety factor.

Assuming such nutty procedures are used for clinchers, something equally performance insensitive is probably used for tubulars. Remember, lawyers get involved when considering product liability.

pastorbobnlnh 09-05-23 06:37 AM


Originally Posted by MooneyBloke (Post 23005705)
All I can say is wow! I think I'm more or less done with this place.

By the bye, we are all riding on less than perfect pavement. That's the damn point.

If you could only come to realize how off-putting your comments normally sound.

Instead of criticizing, judging, and telling a member they are wrong or foolish, why not begin by asking, for example, 1989Pre : "I've never inflated my tubulars to that high of pressure. My roads are rough and uneven. Did you experience any discomfort riding them in the 130-140 psi range?"

I don't expect you will notice the civil difference between how I phrased my question and how you normally phrase your comments. It's also interesting how defensive you become when a member pushes back at your lack of decorum or points out a correction to a statement or assumption you've made.

Now back to our normally civil Totally Tubular content!

1989Pre I've been running my Clement tubulars on my Schwinn 974 at approximately 135psi and really enjoying them. My ride takes me on new asphalt, cracked asphalt, chip-seal, and a concrete MUP with miles of relief and expansion joints. I don't know, maybe it is the expensive Effetto Mariposa gluing tape I used to mount them absorbing the less than perfect pavement, but I'm not experiencing any dental issues or discomfort. :thumb:

DiabloScott 09-05-23 07:26 AM


Originally Posted by 1989Pre (Post 23005600)
Does anyone else want to take a shot at why I should not use 140psi?

Not me. But I would suggest you try riding at 80-90 and see if you like it. Not just because your pump broke but a real ride on roads you know well and purposefully used the lower pressures. Make your choice from a real comparison test ride rather than just the way you've always done it.

I used 22mm tires with high pressure in my criterium days; and I was a hard convert to lower pressure and wider tires... but now I like it a lot.
For me it's not about power output or road buzz, it just feels nicer and I feel more confident carving my line in the downhill hairpins of imperfect pavement I ride all the time.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...23335835fc.jpg

Sedgemop 09-05-23 08:14 AM


Originally Posted by Het Volk (Post 23005179)
I would not be shocked if in 5 years basically tubular tires are down to only a few brands and of those brands, fewer options

Does seem like we're being nudged into tubeless. Not ready to go that direction just yet.

1989Pre 09-05-23 08:50 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 23005934)
Not me. But I would suggest you try riding at 80-90 and see if you like it. Not just because your pump broke but a real ride on roads you know well and purposefully used the lower pressures. Make your choice from a real comparison test ride rather than just the way you've always done it.

I used 22mm tires with high pressure in my criterium days; and I was a hard convert to lower pressure and wider tires... but now I like it a lot.
For me it's not about power output or road buzz, it just feels nicer and I feel more confident carving my line in the downhill hairpins of imperfect pavement I ride all the time.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...23335835fc.jpg

That sounds reasonable. I mentioned in one of my comments, above, that I rode a short (7M) ride at 50psi and found it perfectly acceptable. I've been using 130psi for most of the summer. I'm listening to what you are saying, but will probably do a few more rides at 140psi and then drop to 90psi, just to see the difference. I can see that adjustment paying off when the roads get harder in the cool weather. Side note: I did feel like I was riding on air or hardly touching the ground when I used 140psi on my last ride. I did not feel anything un-desirable, but thanks for the good suggestion. I think some flexibility is probably in-order.
p.s: That is one cool photo! Don't blink!

79pmooney 09-05-23 09:00 AM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 23005934)
Not me. But I would suggest you try riding at 80-90 and see if you like it. Not just because your pump broke but a real ride on roads you know well and purposefully used the lower pressures. Make your choice from a real comparison test ride rather than just the way you've always done it.

I used 22mm tires with high pressure in my criterium days; and I was a hard convert to lower pressure and wider tires... but now I like it a lot.
For me it's not about power output or road buzz, it just feels nicer and I feel more confident carving my line in the downhill hairpins of imperfect pavement I ride all the time.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...23335835fc.jpg

Thanks Scott! That photo takes me back a few years! Early '80s when I lived in Alameda and had to climb Pinehurst to get there.

Classtime 09-05-23 09:03 AM

I weigh 155 and I run 110psi in my 22mm Continental Sprinters. If the roads are rough like EroicaCA or The BWR, I run 90 in my Sprinter Gatorskins.

1989Pre 09-05-23 09:07 AM

MooneyBloke, I have indicated, several times, the condition of the road surface(s) I ride on. Please point specifically to the statement I made prior to and provoked your comment "Road buzz is not speed" that you found discourteous. I will apologize for it.

Het Volk 09-05-23 10:22 AM

Why are people caring what tire pressure other are running? Jan Heine has cursed us all.

DiabloScott 09-05-23 11:03 AM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 23006025)
Thanks Scott! That photo takes me back a few years! Early '80s when I lived in Alameda and had to climb Pinehurst to get there.

This one's just for you.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a2ca30b75d.jpg
I downsize all my blog photos so people see them on their phones easier - so not high-res, but I love when people comment that they moved away and miss Diablo and my photos bring them back.

Just to keep on topic, here's me on my 22mm 120psi CGs and GP4s and SR hubs.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...32132de9ca.jpg
1986

smontanaro 09-05-23 11:38 AM


Originally Posted by Het Volk (Post 23006157)
Why are people caring what tire pressure other are running? Jan Heine has cursed us all.

I don't think Jan has been a curse on the cycling community. He and Josh Poertner applied more rigor to the evaluation of a very complex setup (pressure, diameter, volume, weight, aerodynamics, ...).

That said, I rode very high pressures BITD. I was 20 pounds lighter, rode much skinnier tires and probably rode on better pavement than I do now. I'm a convert to lower pressures and sometimes encourage others to consider letting a little air out of their tires and see how it feels.

Het Volk 09-05-23 11:51 AM


Originally Posted by smontanaro (Post 23006266)
I don't think Jan has been a curse on the cycling community. He and Josh Poertner applied more rigor to the evaluation of a very complex setup (pressure, diameter, volume, weight, aerodynamics, ...).

That said, I rode very high pressures BITD. I was 20 pounds lighter, rode much skinnier tires and probably rode on better pavement than I do now. I'm a convert to lower pressures and sometimes encourage others to consider letting a little air out of their tires and see how it feels.

it was in jest, but tire pressure is melting people’s brains

1989Pre 09-05-23 12:47 PM


Originally Posted by Het Volk (Post 23006157)
Why are people caring what tire pressure other are running? Jan Heine has cursed us all.

My only point was that I enjoyed the ride. I thought I would invite others to join me on that.

"I'm just going to say what the kids say: Whatever. Whatever!"

-Paul Blart, Mall Cop-

79pmooney 09-05-23 05:37 PM


Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 23006217)
This one's just for you.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a2ca30b75d.jpg
I downsize all my blog photos so people see them on their phones easier - so not high-res, but I love when people comment that they moved away and miss Diablo and my photos bring them back.

Just to keep on topic, here's me on my 22mm 120psi CGs and GP4s and SR hubs.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...32132de9ca.jpg
1986

I remember that stretch of road but not those yellow lines! Nor those rude yellow bumps. And second photo, half the brake cables out in the wind, half buried. I went buried about that year and never looked back.

I wanted that in 1977. Used to dream of being able to drape my palms over the hoods on my many long days in the saddle. That and have shifters my knees wouldn't hit. 42-13 going up 20% walls got old fast. Now, my '83 Pro Miyata is about to ride Cycle Oregon with hidden brake cables and SunTour Symmetric shifters. But I've learned the hard way - if I am not careful I jam my fingers hard on the front tire when I reach for the shifters. That bike has little tire clearance. I've gotten very spoiled going for my longer Superbe levers on my fat tubes ti bike with fender clearance for considerably bigger tires. I'm getting too old to just suck it up and do bone jarring jambs every day. So the bike now sports a "twig guard" under the DT to keep those flesh and blood twigs off the tire.

And to the thread topic - tubbies! Yes, they're on. To that first photo - I've never ridden Mt Diablo on anything else. (I'm bring a lot of tires because it's a pretty good bet that there will be no other tubulars among the 1000 or so of us. And 24c is the absolute max this bike can handle in back. 25s only spin about two revolutions. (I could take the rear brake off. Naw.) The mechanics might bring one pair but I doubt it. Right now I have the front, a 25c VItt G+ glued to a GP4 with the Tubasti Carbone glue, the rear 23c taped with Jantex. We will see very real descents I will have little knowledge of but I am a 70 yo riding with considerably less zeal than I did 40 years ago. Comments guys? Should I change either of those systems? (The Jantex is the first tape I have used in 47 years (when I rolled a tire off the old Jantex rim tape). I love how the tires mount on this new stuff. So easy to get the tire as perfect as it is made!

DiabloScott 09-11-23 08:17 AM

Interesting turn of events here - on Amazon I bought what was advertised as "Continental rim cement, box of 12", for about $18 total. Then I received a single tube of glue, filed a complaint, and they refunded the whole amount... so I got one tube of free glue.

gkamieneski 09-11-23 09:02 AM

Amazon has been in the news a lot lately for how they are having to deal with counterfeit goods. I had an issue with several fake KMC X10 chains, and like you, Amazon made good and refunded me, but still because of their business model it's buyer beware.

Dean51 09-11-23 09:43 AM

I'm transitioning from glue to tape. Somewhere.....I read that I should leave a gap in the tape, 180 degrees from the valve stem, to simplify removal of a flat tire. Are any of you tape users doing this? For those that are, how much of a gap are you leaving?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Dean

pastorbobnlnh 09-11-23 11:39 AM

I use Effetto Mariposa tape and don't leave a gap. I've not had any issues removing the tire when I needed to.

HM70 09-11-23 04:29 PM

Under Pressure
 

I used 22mm tires with high pressure in my criterium days; and I was a hard convert to lower pressure and wider tires... but now I like it a lot.
For me it's not about power output or road buzz, it just feels nicer and I feel more confident carving my line in the downhill hairpins of imperfect pavement I ride all the time.

I too am a convert to lower tire pressure because I appreciate the apparent increased ride comfort. What I don't like is when you get out of the saddle up a hill to put down more power and see the front tire. It seems to be deforming left then right with each stroke of the pedals. I know It's because I've got too much weight on just one tire but it's still unsettling. So I'm starting to inch that pressure back up. Tubulars are such a superior ride to clinchers no matter the pressure.

Aardwolf 09-12-23 01:02 AM


Originally Posted by Dean51 (Post 23012237)
I'm transitioning from glue to tape. Somewhere.....I read that I should leave a gap in the tape, 180 degrees from the valve stem, to simplify removal of a flat tire. Are any of you tape users doing this? For those that are, how much of a gap are you leaving?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Dean

I just taped some Vittoria Rubino 28mm with Jantex tape, left 2 spokes untaped,
Haven't had to remove any yet though.

SwimmerMike 09-12-23 09:46 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 23012415)
I use Effetto Mariposa tape and don't leave a gap. I've not had any issues removing the tire when I needed to.

Same here. I've never had a problem removing a taped on tire by hand.

squirtdad 09-13-23 12:32 PM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 23012415)
I use Effetto Mariposa tape and don't leave a gap. I've not had any issues removing the tire when I needed to.


Originally Posted by SwimmerMike (Post 23013873)
Same here. I've never had a problem removing a taped on tire by hand.

ok you guys got me, I was wavering on tape or glue but will try tape on the tires I am about to mount.....FMB cobblstone 29mm

I used tufo tape with tufo tires on my first tubular setup and it really messed up the tires when taking them off

Aardwolf 09-13-23 01:17 PM

I used Tufo tape on 2 sets of tyres, I've now switched to Jantex and I think it's easier to use but haven't tried removing it yet.

I did managed to peel the tufo tape off some Vittoria Rubino 28mm and replace in with Jantex.

obuckler 09-13-23 01:36 PM

Don’t forget tape costs more than glue
 
A quick online check on prices shows Effetto Mariposa tape at $13-17 per tire versus Continental glue at $3 per tire (recent purchase from my LBS) based on half the cost of tube of under $6, which will do more than two tubes.

Also not sure in the case of a flat if you have to clean off the old tape and spend money again on another roll when you remount a new tire after a flat? With tape you just refresh the existing glue base on the rim and add a layer to a brand new tire if needed.

SwimmerMike 09-13-23 02:08 PM


Originally Posted by obuckler (Post 23014504)
A quick online check on prices shows Effetto Mariposa tape at $13-17 per tire versus Continental glue at $3 per tire (recent purchase from my LBS) based on half the cost of tube of under $6, which will do more than two tubes.

Also not sure in the case of a flat if you have to clean off the old tape and spend money again on another roll when you remount a new tire after a flat? With tape you just refresh the existing glue base on the rim and add a layer to a brand new tire if needed.

I buy the shop roll that is 16m. Still more expensive but closer to $8 per tire.

obuckler 09-13-23 02:34 PM

I see jantex tape from merlin at lower prices and in their case a roll will do two wheels. Probably all over the map…

pastorbobnlnh 09-14-23 06:17 AM

I don't mind it when a member points out the difference in costs between different approaches in bike maintenance, but it doesn't need to be a criticism. Such decisions are choices.

Yes, there is a difference in cost between tape-mounting and glue mounting a tubular tire. However, I chose the more expensive route for my own personal reasons, which include:
  1. Quick installation (about two minutes to mount tape to rim and another five minutes or less to mount tire)
  2. Neat installation (no residual glue on rim, tire, hands, etc.)
  3. Near perfect tire alignment (well, nothing is ever "perfect," but it is easy to center the tire on the rim, check for any humps, slanting valve stems, etc.)
  4. It is easy and not messy to remove the tire before pulling out the tape backing strip (just in case the tire needs to be removed, i.e. you realize the labels are on different sides, etc.)
To me, the extra $5-10 per tire is worth the expense (especially when compared to the cost of quality tubular tires).

SJX426 09-14-23 10:53 AM

Can't argue with 1 and 4.
2. I have done well to not have residual glue on the rim or tire. Gloved hands take care of the rest.
3 Not a problem for me when following the time part of the instructions for Mastic. Can;t say I have had issues with humps, slanting valve stems or etc.

That being said to each there own. I love options and individuality.

obuckler 09-14-23 03:43 PM

Well. if you read my posts in this thread I don’t think you will find me being critical of anyone’s method.

It is always a personal choice in finding the best way for you.

i reread my recent post and did not feel I hid any criticism.

It was a don’t forget…no criticism intended.

pastorbobnlnh 09-14-23 03:51 PM


Originally Posted by obuckler (Post 23015776)
Well. if you read my posts in this thread I don’t think you will find me being critical of anyone’s method.

It is always a personal choice in finding the best way for you.

i reread my recent post and did not feel I hid any criticism.

It was a don’t forget…no criticism intended.

None taken and I was really thinking more about this post earlier in the thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/22998341-post3020.html


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