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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

paulb_in_bkln 06-22-19 07:22 PM

Has anyone experience with the cottered cranksets from the top end Raleighs, the ones used on the RRA for example? Are they lighter than the usual Sports cranksets? Is the finish different, or better?

BigChief 06-22-19 08:17 PM

What I think of as club bikes were the higher performance English bikes of the mid 20th century. They lacked some of the endearing features of the roadsters like chain cases, chain guards and those wonderful stylized chainrings. They had higher cost materials and more business like styling. Nice features like Bluemel mudguards, fluted crank arms, unsprung seats, wing nuts on the axles, rat trap pedals and drop bars.

gster 06-23-19 05:31 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20991824)
gster, Go to a local cheaper tool store (Canadian Tyre?) and buy a cheap roofing angle finder - should be about $10. My Rudge angles are 71 deg seat tube and 73 deg head tube, and the Raleigh/Rudge original sales documents say the same thing. It's really not hard to measure them well enough. Relaxed seat tubes were a feature of the times, on roadsters and sport bikes as well as Clubman types. I think I read spec printed 15 years earlier, and there were 67 degree seat tubes. Yours looks steeper than I think mine is.

I use "Club" or "Clubman" the way Raleigh used it and in turn Peter Kohler used it in his blogs on British bikes of the middle-ish 20th Century. There were actual models, really numerous models and variants called "Clubman." Raleigh's patter said they are designed for the discerning customer like club members and other aspirational cyclists who wanted a bicycle with the potential for higher performance than the norm. Sounds to me like the difference between a Peugeot PX-10 and a Peugeot UO-8, no? The 1970's and later trend in USA was for light weight, a lively feel, comfort and stability, long distance comfort, and excellent durability. It sounds like what these Raleighs and other brands offered in the late '40s and '50s (and yes, they had drop bars). And I think the earlier higher end road bikes from Raleigh in the early '60s, like the wonderful gold-colored Grand Prix of the early '60s, were a design evolution from the earlier Club-styles, like the Raleigh Super Lenton (sibling to my Rudge). The Raleigh Competition and International from the 1969-ish time frames were also very similar the geometry of my Rudge. Both models were later transitioned to more upright geometries.

Recall Peter Weigle converted a few Raleigh Comp's of that era into his first 650b bikes. The trail figures for my Rudge calculate out to about 39 mm for the 27 x 1 ¼ for my Rudge, and will probably be in the mid-30s with 650 x 42b tires. But once you have measured your angles and made a best-possible measurement of fork offset and wheel diameter, you can calculate your own trail.

What are the names on your mystery bike?

Link:
The Raleigh Lentons: 1948-1961 - ON THE DROPS


https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-raleigh-lentons-1948-1960.htmlNumerous articles on that blog.

Good advice on the roofers tool.
My friend, Dan, down the street probably has one.
Despite my appreciation for the Mystery Bike
I can'y really ride it, and I don't want
to swap out the bars for uprights.
it has a metal tab on the rear fork for
a derailleur option that appears unused.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fff9814d5e.jpg
perhaps designed for one of these...
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7def47a55c.jpg

I'm going to use it as a prop in a movie I'm working on
and hang it on the wall of the main character's apartment.

gster 06-23-19 06:14 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20991970)
What I think of as club bikes were the higher performance English bikes of the mid 20th century. They lacked some of the endearing features of the roadsters like chain cases, chain guards and those wonderful stylized chainrings. They had higher cost materials and more business like styling. Nice features like Bluemel mudguards, fluted crank arms, unsprung seats, wing nuts on the axles, rat trap pedals and drop bars.

Another good description.
Thanks

gster 06-23-19 07:11 AM

Still Out There
Triumph 3 speed at $50.00
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6bda3c538b.jpg

Johno59 06-23-19 07:19 AM

Ree
 

Originally Posted by gster (Post 20992259)
Good advice on the roofers tool.
My friend, Dan, down the street probably has one.
Despite my appreciation for the Mystery Bike
I can'y really ride it, and I don't want
to swap out the bars for uprights.
it has a metal tab on the rear fork for
a derailleur option that appears unused.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fff9814d5e.jpg
perhaps designed for one of these...
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7def47a55c.jpg

I'm going to use it as a prop in a movie I'm working on
and hang it on the wall of the main character's apartment.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...79cb694e8f.jpg
Or one of these

gster 06-23-19 07:26 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20992347)

That looks cool.
What is it?

gster 06-23-19 09:03 AM

I Should Have Stayed in Bed
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c0a5bd03d1.jpg
I thought I'd finish off the front brake installation on the '30 Hercules.
Despite being annoying and difficult to install I got it done.
I was just about to take it for a quick spin and decided to tighten up
the rod locking bolts.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...27766d504d.jpg
One 1/2 turn managed to shear it off.
F*CK!!!!
I've got a spare that I hope fits....
As Homer Simpson said:
"Never try."https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b3e66066e.jpg

Road Fan 06-23-19 09:48 AM

Can you share a picture of the headbadge on that red bike? Based on the angle and the derailleur tab, I'd guess 1950 or earlier. Any idea what the BB shell threading is? How about the seat tube and stem diameters? Here we need a decent quality caliper, $30 at Harbor Freight.

3speedslow 06-23-19 11:54 AM

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...015f6435f.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ab11f1874.jpeg
Working on the Phillips 67. I’ve never had these models before even if they are Raleigh made. I am pulling the seat and taking out the seat pin, I release the bolt clamp give it some lube and pull. It does move a little then becomes easier. I continue pulling and it comes out, and out, and out. I have never seen a 15” seat pin on these bikes. Heck, I’ve never seen a 15” 25.4 English pin period!

markk900 06-23-19 12:05 PM

Funny you should mention that. Last winter while I was working on the 49 Humber I happened to look down the seat tube and noticed something there. After a lot of work and swearing I pulled a 10.5” post that had been hammered down into the seat tube and topped with a regular seat post. Mine did not say “made in England” but it had clearly been there a while!

gster 06-23-19 12:17 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20992572)
Can you share a picture of the headbadge on that red bike? Based on the angle and the derailleur tab, I'd guess 1950 or earlier. Any idea what the BB shell threading is? How about the seat tube and stem diameters? Here we need a decent quality caliper, $30 at Harbor Freight.

Head badge is Gold Medal (an American company) but looks as if it
was added later.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...98e8ab0234.jpg
Made (assembled) in Canada sticker
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0c0c124a40.jpg
1954 Hub.
I haven't had the BB apart but it's English (Bayley Wiless)
Phillips pedals
Brake levers look Canadian and the original tires
were Dunlop Speedsters at 28" x 1 1/4" (Canadian sizing)
The seat stays and lugs are also interesting/unique.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...353cf522ba.jpg

Johno59 06-23-19 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20992353)
That looks cool.
What is it?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f39674e30.jpg

It's a 1954 Resilion derailleur. The lever is to the left in the foto. It bolts onto the bracket braized in the original foto.

gster 06-23-19 12:52 PM

1930 Hercules
Before
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...60b80448b2.jpg
After
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c7f985d56c.jpg
The little pinch bolt fit the brake rod..
It still has a 16T S/A freewheel on the back which makes it a bit
of a dog but will find something bigger in time.
I still plan to make some transfers as well.

gster 06-23-19 01:33 PM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20992750)
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f39674e30.jpg

It's a 1954 Resilion derailleur. The lever is to the left in the foto. It bolts onto the bracket braized in the original foto.

Interesting......
The hub is dated 1954 and the last 2 digits of the
serial number are...54
and the pedals are stamped Phillips......

Murray Missile 06-23-19 05:11 PM

Well, my goal this year was to sell bikes and not buy anymore, to that end 2 complete bikes left and one frame, 3 others are almost ready to go on the market. Sold one, junked one and gave a very rough '63 Schwinn Traveler frame to a young lady that collects old Schwinns. One frame tooks it's place, an '85 Raleigh Grand Prix and now it appears I have another Raleigh. I sold the one bike to a co-worker and he asked me if I wanted his old bike, I thought it was a Huffy or WalMart bike so I declined. He posted a garage sale on FB this morning and this was one of the pics. His old bike...........



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6aeba7d9f3.jpg

Raleigh Sports, guessing late 70's? '77-ish? He's bringing it to work tomorrow or the next day, he told me $30 but would take less. Since he's hauling it to work for me I told him I'd go the full 30. He's been riding it up until he got the bike from me so I know it's at least functional and except for possibly the saddle it looks all original. I have a gently used brown "Pashley" branded Brooks B-72 I think would be right at home on it, definitely better than that thing that is on it now.

clubman 06-23-19 06:28 PM


Originally Posted by Murray Missile (Post 20993090)
Raleigh Sports, guessing late 70's? '77-ish?

Maybe later, maybe assembled in Canada. The rear reflector and odd bar bend were typically early 80's.

But the AW will tell the story. It's a bigger frame, bonus!

Murray Missile 06-23-19 07:22 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20993185)
It's a bigger frame, bonus!

I see these for sale fairly often but never with the tall frame and usually for at least double the money, when I saw this I had to have it. I'm 6' 1-1/2" but I can make a 23" work pretty easily. I would have preferred an older Nottingham built bike but when opportunity knocks...... The rear reflector is what made me think 77-ish, in the catalogs the 80's bikes had black reflector housings, this style reflector with white housing started in '77 but the '78 bikes showed a black band on the frame and the head tube between the lugs was painted black. Then again none of those I found showed red as an available color. Whatever it is, it's mine now!

Update:

Looks like it's an LTD not a Sports, the LTD was available in red or "Carmine" as they called it. Matches the 1977 version the best.

browngw 06-23-19 09:23 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20991970)
What I think of as club bikes were the higher performance English bikes of the mid 20th century. They lacked some of the endearing features of the roadsters like chain cases, chain guards and those wonderful stylized chainrings. They had higher cost materials and more business like styling. Nice features like Bluemel mudguards, fluted crank arms, unsprung seats, wing nuts on the axles, rat trap pedals and drop bars.

When I think of a club bike , my 1958 Sun Cresta always pops into my mind. The 5 speed Benelux derailleur even kind of shifts with a chain indicator. Slim simple and lightweight (for the time)https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ee416618fd.jpg

BigChief 06-24-19 03:43 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20992779)
1930 Hercules
Before
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...60b80448b2.jpg
After
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c7f985d56c.jpg
The little pinch bolt fit the brake rod..
It still has a 16T S/A freewheel on the back which makes it a bit
of a dog but will find something bigger in time.
I still plan to make some transfers as well.

That's looking great. From what I see in the 1930 catalog, the only transfer is the round head badge. Pretty sure this one from Lloyd's is a perfect replica. https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com/search?q=hercules
Are you planning on painting the black center stripe on the rims?

BigChief 06-24-19 03:59 AM

I'm still amazed you found the correct short grips. Those, the shallow mudguards and the L shape seat post are the features that stand out as pre war.

gster 06-24-19 04:14 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20993639)
That's looking great. From what I see in the 1930 catalog, the only transfer is the round head badge. Pretty sure this one from Lloyd's is a perfect replica. https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com/search?q=hercules
Are you planning on painting the black center stripe on the rims?

Thanks for the input.
yes on the head badge decal and there was a vertical Hercules on the seat tube
that I can make myself.
Unlikely that I'll paint the rims.
I took it out for a short shakedown yesterday which
revealed a few issues.
-rear cog/too small
-valve on rear wheel is hitting the brake pad
-seat post was loose
-handle bars were loose.
I don't think that this bike will make
it into regular riding rotation but
I've enjoyed the process.
It's certainly the oldest bike in the fleet

gster 06-24-19 05:18 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20993650)
I'm still amazed you found the correct short grips. Those, the shallow mudguards and the L shape seat post are the features that stand out as pre war.

The bars and lever array are actually Raleigh and came with the
short grips.
In truth all that's really left of the original bike
is
-the frame
-the brake parts and linkages
-the spindle and cups
-the headset

Alloyboy 06-24-19 06:53 AM

We had a beautiful sunny day here in Ontario Canada yesterday. I put in an enjoyable three hours on my 3 speed.
Once again a big thank you to Dan Burkhart for supplying me with the 22 cog. What a big difference from the 18 that was on there. Mosquitoes are in abundance this year. Regards.

BigChief 06-24-19 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20993700)
The bars and lever array are actually Raleigh and came with the
short grips.
In truth all that's really left of the original bike
is
-the frame
-the brake parts and linkages
-the spindle and cups
-the headset

Well, you could also think of it as a long term project. I tend to like those. Personally, I wouldn't think twice about updating this bike with a 3 speed hub. That would put you on the lookout for a quadrant shifter. Or maybe a 32/40h pair of westwoods will come along. Think stripes! It's very likely that a good crank like the original can be found. That's a pretty common design. And then...there's the pinstripes. As you already know, I'm a tool junkie. A Beugler pinstripe tool has been on my wish list for a while now. Although, I'm a bit discouraged this morning. Maybe I'm just out of shape because of all this rain, but after a short ride today, my knee isn't happy.

Road Fan 06-24-19 07:52 AM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 20993437)
When I think of a club bike , my 1958 Sun Cresta always pops into my mind. The 5 speed Benelux derailleur even kind of shifts with a chain indicator. Slim simple and lightweight (for the time)https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ee416618fd.jpg

I keep thinking, these are so much like randonneuses.

Road Fan 06-24-19 08:14 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20992711)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...015f6435f.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ab11f1874.jpeg
Working on the Phillips 67. I’ve never had these models before even if they are Raleigh made. I am pulling the seat and taking out the seat pin, I release the bolt clamp give it some lube and pull. It does move a little then becomes easier. I continue pulling and it comes out, and out, and out. I have never seen a 15” seat pin on these bikes. Heck, I’ve never seen a 15” 25.4 English pin period!

25.4 is the same diameter as for my 1952 Rudge Aero Special, made of straight gauge tubing by Raleigh Nottingham. So your wall thickness is (28.6-25.4)/2 = 1.6 mm.

Road Fan 06-24-19 08:21 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20992750)
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f39674e30.jpg

It's a 1954 Resilion derailleur. The lever is to the left in the foto. It bolts onto the bracket braized in the original foto.

This would not fit the red Mystery Bike (now seems that it might be a Gold Medal). The bolt holes might line up, but on the red bike and the blue one with a Simplex the mounting tab is as far back as possible and not occlude the dropout. On the Resilion you show here the mount is maybe 4 cm ahead of the dropout, and if you look at how the chain wraps, it most likely needs to be that far forward.

markk900 06-24-19 08:58 AM

@Alloyboy - yes it was a great day yesterday and the mosquitoes are horrible. Got to take 2 of the three speeds out for a jaunt: the 49 Humber in its first “official” ride since the repaint this winter - all
went well though I think the new paint allowed the axle to move just a hair as the wide Col de Vie tire started running on the bottom of the fender (fixed).

Later her I took out the IGH converted Trek 600 and it was a joy to ride, other than an irritating creak. Turned out to be a not quite fully done up pedal. All is good and that 531 frame and https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9554f704d.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8148dbe8e.jpeg
modern 700c wheels really made it fly.

BigChief 06-24-19 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 20994021)
@Alloyboy - yes it was a great day yesterday and the mosquitoes are horrible. Got to take 2 of the three speeds out for a jaunt: the 49 Humber in its first “official” ride since the repaint this winter - all
went well though I think the new paint allowed the axle to move just a hair as the wide Col de Vie tire started running on the bottom of the fender (fixed).
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9554f704d.jpeg

I love this bike. It's got all the goodies. Tall pre 55 frame, duplex fork, window shifter and that wonderful chain ring. Great bike. Good color choice too.


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