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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 05-30-19 07:10 PM


Originally Posted by 88Tempo (Post 20954269)
My first experience with a Sturmey Archer 3 speed was the Rudge I mentioned. I was pleasantly surprised how well a either 1951 or 1954 ( I can't remember) bike worked.

The priority for parts and stuff right now is my Tempo and then the Nashbar Road LP. With a limited budget for bike stuff I absolutely have to have some priorities.

Well, I hope you join our ranks again someday. It could be anything from a classic club machine, a big 28" wheeled rod brake roadster, an early or late model light roadster and even a Twenty folder. They all fit in here. And...they don't break the bank.

88Tempo 05-30-19 07:28 PM

@BigChief
If the right bike comes along at the right price I'll grab it. Speaking of which the Super Course you mentioned earlier. A Super Record just popped up in the Colorado Springs Cragslist? It looks like a mid to late 70's to me and in my size. $130 is the asking price. How do they compare to the Super Course?

clubman 05-31-19 09:03 AM


Originally Posted by 88Tempo (Post 20955107)
[MENTION=398265]
How do they compare to the Super Course?

Poorly, imo. Hi ten tubes, less chrome, different geometry. I've never liked the ride, at least in the 54 cm size.

paulb_in_bkln 06-01-19 06:54 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20953293)
There is another option. A daydream of mine that unfortunately isn't practical for me since my old body can't take much time on drop bars anymore. I'd start with a Raleigh Super Course frameset. Find a suitable crank, vintage trigger shifter, Sturmey Archer S5 hub and mudguards that looked as much like vintage Bluemels as possible. I'd strip and repaint the frame in a more vintage style with vintage style transfers. I bet I could even get used to toe straps again although it's been a while. I don't see this happening at this point. I'll just stick to my roadsters.

Following up the daydreaming theme, I noticed that if I'm willing to forego the Reynolds 531, it's not difficult or even that expensive to find a 70s or 80s Trek/Miyata/Fuji/Nishiki etc. road frame made with excellent, but not prestigious, Japanese DB tubing from Ishiwata or Tange. Project-wise I have a full plate right now and I'm still enjoying the novelty of the Peugeot mixte conversion, but for the future I might like using one of these for an FW or S5 based bicycle.

BigChief 06-01-19 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20957124)
Following up the daydreaming theme, I noticed that if I'm willing to forego the Reynolds 531, it's not difficult or even that expensive to find a 70s or 80s Trek/Miyata/Fuji/Nishiki etc. road frame made with excellent, but not prestigious, Japanese DB tubing from Ishiwata or Tange. Project-wise I have a full plate right now and I'm still enjoying the novelty of the Peugeot mixte conversion, but for the future I might like using one of these for an FW or S5 based bicycle.

I have this nifty NOS 36H 1985 S5.2 hub just begging for some hot rod project. This one doesn't use a bell crank for the left side. Pull chains on both sides. No idea how well it works.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f44b8b2736.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 06-01-19 08:58 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20957209)
I have this nifty NOS 36H 1985 S5.2 hub just begging for some hot rod project. This one doesn't use a bell crank for the left side. Pull chains on both sides. No idea how well it works.

You are set! I'll be keeping my eyes open for one of those, or an FW, at a good price. Too bad our local twice-yearly bike jumble offers nothing, but nothing, for IGH users.

gster 06-01-19 11:38 AM

This is Progress?
I'm cleaning/tuning a mountain bike for a friend of mine.
Not a piece of junk but somewhat ok.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bf55ff1933.jpg
1984(?) Renegade.
Look at the handle bar array.
There's absolutely no room to adjust anything as all the space is taken up
by the 2 massive shifters and brake levers....
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4e5b4021f9.jpg
Compare to the simplicity of a standard 3 speed array.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d1ae42db0e.jpg

paulb_in_bkln 06-01-19 09:38 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20957402)
This is Progress?
I'm cleaning/tuning a mountain bike for a friend of mine.
Not a piece of junk but somewhat ok.

1984(?) Renegade.
Look at the handle bar array.
There's absolutely no room to adjust anything as all the space is taken up
by the 2 massive shifters and brake levers....

Compare to the simplicity of a standard 3 speed array.

It came that way? This must have been the very early days of twist shifters. Next to one of those you use a grip that's a shorty, about 85mm. Allows everything to fit. Although those shifters are very deep, so maybe a grip even shorter than that. The setup in the photo is a headscratcher, to me.

gster 06-02-19 05:24 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20957988)
It came that way? This must have been the very early days of twist shifters. Next to one of those you use a grip that's a shorty, about 85mm. Allows everything to fit. Although those shifters are very deep, so maybe a grip even shorter than that. The setup in the photo is a headscratcher, to me.

It did have short gel grips that were all sticky as well as those
bull horn extensions that I removed.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b1020da1f1.png

paulb_in_bkln 06-02-19 07:45 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20958132)
It did have short gel grips that were all sticky as well as those
bull horn extensions that I removed.

Somewhere online I read an article about the decline and demise of Sturmey Archer (the original UK company). It was written by someone who's a career wrench and bike shop owner, and he thinks it was predominantly Grip Shift, appearing right around the time of this bike--early 80s--that so weakened the demand for IGH bikes that TA or whoever owned SA at the time finally sold off the business.

gster 06-02-19 09:43 AM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20958226)
Somewhere online I read an article about the decline and demise of Sturmey Archer (the original UK company). It was written by someone who's a career wrench and bike shop owner, and he thinks it was predominantly Grip Shift, appearing right around the time of this bike--early 80s--that so weakened the demand for IGH bikes that TA or whoever owned SA at the time finally sold off the business.

A lot of time and money is spent developing and promoting new technologies.
Whether they're needed or not.
Driverless cars?
Is there actually a demand?

dweenk 06-02-19 12:34 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20958379)
A lot of time and money is spent developing and promoting new technologies.
Whether they're needed or not.
Driverless cars?
Is there actually a demand?

Not by people, but by companies that see an opportunity to inflate the price of vehicles yet again. On the other hand, drunk and aggressive driving would be diminished.

I have seen it promoted for truck caravans, but don't we already have a means of moving goods by train?

horatio 06-02-19 06:09 PM

Update on the '52 Sports. WD40 flush of the IGH got things moving again, but I've been unable to hook up and ride, as the front tire has succumbed to dry-rot. Anyone successfully coax a modern 700c wheel with 100mm hub into these forks? I'm not quite strong enough to pry them apart, so I may do a cold set with threaded rod.

Road Fan 06-02-19 08:00 PM

[QUOTE=BigChief;20953426]The Super Course was a medium priced model. The important factor is that it has a Reynolds 531 tube frame like the original club bikes. What you're talking about is what we call a scorcher. That is stripping down a regular light roadster like a Sports. I made this one from a 21" 1955 Rudge Sports. I need upright bars, so this has a tall Sunlite touring stem and long seat post so it fits me. It has alloy rims, alloy shell AW hub,a light weight seat, alloy ESGE kickstand, rat trap pedals, Tektro brakes and no mudguards or chainguard. It's pretty sporty. I put a lot of miles on this one. There is a misconception that these frames are "gas pipe" but they are not the same mild steel as the cheapo department store bikes or even electro welded Schwinns. Those are 1010 steel. The Raleigh Sports frames are more like 1018 or 1020, but still not as hard or light as the more exotic alloys like 531. Still, you can have plenty of fun on a scorcher!/QUOTE]

I'm not too clear on scorchers, but I have the 1952 Rudge Aero special frame and the 1973 Super Course frame nearby, both abour 54 or 55 cm seat tube.

Let's compare the geometries:

Seat tube length: Rudge 55 cm, SC 54 cm
Seat tube angle: Rudge 71 deg, SC 73 deg
TT length: Rudge 57 cm, SC 56 cm
Head tube angle: Rudge 73 deg, SC 73 deg
Fork offset: Rudge 63 mm, SC 59 mm
Front Center: Rudge 65 cm (estimated), SC 62 cm
Chain stay length: Rudge: 44.5 cm, SC 45.5 cm.
Wheelbase: Rudge 106 cm, SC 103 cm.

And some of the rest of the specs:

Braze-ons: both have f/r fender mounts, both take caliper brakes with center bolt (Rudge cabled for side pulls, SC cabled for center-pull). Rudge is set up for Sturmey-Archer integrated gear hub, AM, AW, FM, FW. SC set up for 2x5 derailleurs with downtube friction shifting.

My expectation is that both will make excellent descendants of the original British Clubmen, and an excellent tool for as close as I can train up to a (local version of) Lands End to John o Groats, or local long rides or day brevets. With a Carradice or Brooks bag on the rear, either would do well for an inn overnighter. Now, an International, my Woodrup refurbished, or that new Mercian I've envisioned since high school might just surpass a hot-rodded Rudge or a Super Course. But, a Clubman and a Super Course were both the dream bikes of the normal working man. Needless to say, both should be suited to supported multi-day tours.

Both have Reynolds straight gauge main tubes, the Rudge has all its tubes of Reynolds 531. Neither are gas pipe. Both are made in English factories: Rudge at Raleigh/Nottingham, SC in Raleigh-owned Carlton/Worksop. Both used steel cottered cranks. The Rudge used proprietary Raleigh threading BB and headset and will not accept a 68mm BSA BB spec. The SC was in transition from traditional Raleigh to 68 mm BSA specs. The Rudge can of course accept the original 630x32c tires with the grace that suggests the frame was designed for them. The SC is a less tight-fitting frame, but mine might accept 40 mm tires in a 622 rim. I have to do some more measuring and figuring. With the SC you can use a three, four, or five speed Sturmey Archer hub, or cold-set the frame for a Campy index-shifting 8-speed (or any other modern gearing), a full vintage French drivetrain as originally supplied, or what have you. For a dyno, either frame can have a wheel built with a modern SON or Shutter Precision hub, or a Sturmey Archer FG (wide-range four-speed gear hub with generator) or GH (front dyno hub).

Main point is that if you want to make your own modernized or S/A Clubman, a Raleigh Super Course is a nearly perfect platform. Mine is as I said a 54 centimeter one, 1973, and it is a little banged up needing an amateur alignment.

88Tempo 06-02-19 08:08 PM

@Road Fan
Thanks for the info. I'm keeping my eyes open. I would absolutely love to run into an Aero Special. More for the fact that most people have never heard of Rudge than anything.

Road Fan 06-02-19 08:11 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20958379)
A lot of time and money is spent developing and promoting new technologies.
Whether they're needed or not.
Driverless cars?
Is there actually a demand?

This does veer off topic, but as one who works in autonomous vehicles, I think the big benefit is to minimize the negative effects of human drivers who do not always make good decisions.

But the off-topic matter is not to be denied, and I have to say I'll only discuss it further in the Safety forum or on PM.

Road Fan 06-02-19 08:16 PM


Originally Posted by 88Tempo (Post 20959155)
@Road Fan
Thanks for the info. I'm keeping my eyes open. I would absolutely love to run into an Aero Special. More for the fact that most people have never heard of Rudge than anything.

Yes, I like that, too! You saw the picture of mine, I think it was in the Sport-Tour discussion?

Actually in the Rudge/SC comparison post, my point was that a Super Course could make a fantastic modern-man's Clubman-clone.

But here we'd likely be straying out of three-speed territory, as well!

paulb_in_bkln 06-03-19 07:04 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20959142)
I'm not too clear on scorchers, but I have the 1952 Rudge Aero special frame and the 1973 Super Course frame nearby, both abour 54 or 55 cm seat tube.

Let's compare the geometries:

Seat tube length: Rudge 55 cm, SC 54 cm
Seat tube angle: Rudge 71 deg, SC 73 deg
TT length: Rudge 57 cm, SC 56 cm
Head tube angle: Rudge 73 deg, SC 73 deg
Fork offset: Rudge 63 mm, SC 59 mm
Front Center: Rudge 65 cm (estimated), SC 62 cm
Chain stay length: Rudge: 44.5 cm, SC 45.5 cm.
Wheelbase: Rudge 106 cm, SC 103 cm.

It seems to me it's the seat tube angle that is the main, more difficult to duplicate, difference between your Rudge Aero and one of the many easy-to-find DB steel frames that would make good platforms for one of the more unusual old SA hubs, like the FW.

Salubrious 06-03-19 11:19 AM

One issue with many frames intended to be really light is that the frame geometry isn't optimized to also be comfortable. This might be the big difference between a daily rider as opposed to a bike intended for racing. So many bike designs are based on racers, even though most people never race them- they just ride and are uncomfortable :foo:

If you're trying to build a scorcher this might be the thing to keep in mind!

There's a bike company called 'Jones' that is a mountain bike that is intended to be comfortable- and has some interesting geometry that many with 3-speeds will find familiar. I have a Jones and the riding position is the same as my three speeds. In both cases this allows me to be on the bike for really long times.

Ged117 06-03-19 12:18 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20959563)
It seems to me it's the seat tube angle that is the main, more difficult to duplicate, difference between your Rudge Aero and one of the many easy-to-find DB steel frames that would make good platforms for one of the more unusual old SA hubs, like the FW.

Not unlike my Peugeot AO8. The frame isn't a DB frame, but it is as quick and enjoyable a ride as any other bike I've owned or ridden, with the possible exception of my DB Voyageur. Thanks to the experience and generosity of members here I'll be fitting a '53 FW to my Pug and creating my own near-Clubman type bike for commutes and day rides. I'm going to build the FW into a Velocity Dyad 700c wheel, and the front will be same but built around a Maillard 700 Professional hub. I considered going out and finding a Reynolds / Tange / Columbus tubeset to build it into, but I like the mid 1970s French bicycle aesthetic and price. Reynolds or DB frames in general are not cheap in my part of the world. Finding a 60 or 62 cm frame makes it even more difficult, so the A08 in 62cm was a great find for this four speed project.

Still, I eyeball the "barn find" 1950s Raleigh Lentons, Clubman etc. bicycles on ebay more often than I'd like to admit.

Road Fan 06-03-19 01:20 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20959563)
It seems to me it's the seat tube angle that is the main, more difficult to duplicate, difference between your Rudge Aero and one of the many easy-to-find DB steel frames that would make good platforms for one of the more unusual old SA hubs, like the FW.

Yes, I think that's correct that the frame angle cannot be duplicated

But at the same time, the effect of seat tube angle is setback of the seat tube lug from the BB plumbline. That added setback, measured at teh saddle, can be compensated with a seatpost that has a higher setback.

So while you can't duplicate the ST angle, you can achieve similar setback by using a deep-setback seat post such as a Nitto S-84 or one of the lower cost high-setback posts.

paulb_in_bkln 06-03-19 02:04 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20960088)
Not unlike my Peugeot AO8. The frame isn't a DB frame, but it is as quick and enjoyable a ride as any other bike I've owned or ridden, with the possible exception of my DB Voyageur. Thanks to the experience and generosity of members here I'll be fitting a '53 FW to my Pug and creating my own near-Clubman type bike for commutes and day rides. I'm going to build the FW into a Velocity Dyad 700c wheel, and the front will be same but built around a Maillard 700 Professional hub. I considered going out and finding a Reynolds / Tange / Columbus tubeset to build it into, but I like the mid 1970s French bicycle aesthetic and price. Reynolds or DB frames in general are not cheap in my part of the world. Finding a 60 or 62 cm frame makes it even more difficult, so the A08 in 62cm was a great find for this four speed project.

Still, I eyeball the "barn find" 1950s Raleigh Lentons, Clubman etc. bicycles on ebay more often than I'd like to admit.

What do you think of the Trek 410 that is on ebay?

Ged117 06-03-19 02:29 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20960261)
What do you think of the Trek 410 that is on ebay?

I like the blue. I don't like this:

Shipping:
US $124.15 (approx. C $167.84) International Priority Shipping to Canada | See detailsImport chargesUS $40.99 (amount confirmed at checkout) Ebay shipping to Canada prices are intense to say the least. Trouble is, local prices are not much better. People in Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal think '70s and '80s bicycles (Motobecane, Peugeot, Trek, Gitane, Raleigh, Bianchi or any other marque) are worth way more than I believe to be rational. Even bottom of the rung bikes cost.

paulb_in_bkln 06-03-19 06:57 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20960303)
I like the blue. I don't like this:

Shipping:
US $124.15 (approx. C $167.84) International Priority Shipping to Canada | See detailsImport chargesUS $40.99 (amount confirmed at checkout) Ebay shipping to Canada prices are intense to say the least. Trouble is, local prices are not much better. People in Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal think '70s and '80s bicycles (Motobecane, Peugeot, Trek, Gitane, Raleigh, Bianchi or any other marque) are worth way more than I believe to be rational. Even bottom of the rung bikes cost.

I get it. I put in a bid much lower than the asking price to allow for the S&H and it was immediately rejected.

tigervw78 06-03-19 07:48 PM

Finally worked on that dented '69 Sports fender.

Did the minimum as I have two nice Sports already and wanted this one as anytime commuter/utility bike.

Banged out fender
Added Schwalbe white walls from '67 Austrian Sears ladies bike I picked up from the co op.
Added 24T cog (for riding over harbor bridge)
Added Plescher rack from 19" Sports I picked up at co op.
Added Kool Stop pads
Added tool bag I picked up at co op
Took one of the Wald rear folding baskets from '74 Sports and installed on '69.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bc30ca7371.jpg

As is from co-op plus 24T cog
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ffe116bb4d.jpg

Dented fender
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ff0c3b6e70.jpg

Dented fender
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cc38c312fb.jpg

Good enough fender repair. Still need to add reflector tape
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7997e55c8d.jpg

Picture taken at dusk. Apologies for the poor lighting

BigChief 06-03-19 08:33 PM


Originally Posted by tigervw78 (Post 20960769)
Finally worked on that dented '69 Sports fender.

Did the minimum as I have two nice Sports already and wanted this one as anytime commuter/utility bike.

Banged out fender
Added Schwalbe white walls from '67 Austrian Sears ladies bike I picked up from the co op.
Added 24T cog (for riding over harbor bridge)
Added Plescher rack from 19" Sports I picked up at co op.
Added Kool Stop pads
Added tool bag I picked up at co op
Took one of the Wald rear folding baskets from '74 Sports and installed on '69.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bc30ca7371.jpg

As is from co-op plus 24T cog
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ffe116bb4d.jpg

Dented fender
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ff0c3b6e70.jpg

Dented fender
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cc38c312fb.jpg

Good enough fender repair. Still need to add reflector tape
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7997e55c8d.jpg

Picture taken at dusk. Apologies for the poor lighting

Nice work. A good example of how to make a classy vintage, but still practical utility bike without breaking the bank.

tigervw78 06-04-19 05:08 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20960825)
Nice work. A good example of how to make a classy vintage, but still practical utility bike without breaking the bank.

Thanks! I'm pretty proud of how far I've come mechanically. With the help of this thread and co-op, I feel like I can fix just about anything on these bikes now. I was hoping finally wrapping up my beater/utility bike would ease collector urges, but now I think I will try to fix up for others as I run across them.

That being said, the brake lever clamp on the Sears is broken. Any idea if I can find another clamp or how I can replace the whole lever? The bike has nice white vintage cables and I don't want to screw them up.

thumpism 06-04-19 05:43 PM

Two of the six bikes in this ad are pretty interesting.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/...904286855.html

vintage bicycles (Moseley)

bicycle frame material: steel
bicycle type: cruiser
frame size: several
wheel size: other/unknown

Lot of vintage bicycles. Purchase one or make an offer for them all. Dates of bicycles are estimates based on serial numbers and styles
Call or text Marty @ 804-five-0-2-7-two-85

1967 or late 60s Raleigh superbe - $300/obo
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...talog-1967.pdf

Late 60’s Raleigh sports ladies bike - $100/obo

Women’s 1980’s Murray 3-Speed Richland Touring Bike $100

Ross Europa 10 Speed from Allentown, PA manufacturing stopped in 1987
late 70s model (rare design) $50

Huffman Huffy 10 speed is a 1974 $20

Free Spirit women bike from Sears. Mid 80’s possibly ’86. $20

Call or text Marty @ 804-five-0-2-7-two-85

gster 06-05-19 04:48 AM


Originally Posted by tigervw78 (Post 20961119)
Thanks! I'm pretty proud of how far I've come mechanically. With the help of this thread and co-op, I feel like I can fix just about anything on these bikes now. I was hoping finally wrapping up my beater/utility bike would ease collector urges, but now I think I will try to fix up for others as I run across them.

That being said, the brake lever clamp on the Sears is broken. Any idea if I can find another clamp or how I can replace the whole lever? The bike has nice white vintage cables and I don't want to screw them up.

Loosen the lock nut on the caliper in question that holds the brake cable.
This will give you enough slack to get the ball end free of the lever.
Probably best to replace both levers with something similar so they match.
New bare cables are cheap ($2.00-$3.00) but keep the housings and
re assemble with some oil dripped down the housing.

BigChief 06-05-19 05:02 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20960088)

Still, I eyeball the "barn find" 1950s Raleigh Lentons, Clubman etc. bicycles on ebay more often than I'd like to admit.

Those higher end 1950s English bikes are just rare here in the US. As a kid, I rarely saw an adult on a bicycle. The English roadsters sold well to older kids because once you rode one, you discovered that they were far superior to the welded up gas pipe, coaster braked clunkers we were all used to. It wasn't just the 3 speeds. The whole design made them easier and more fun to ride. So at least the roadsters are plentiful this side of the Atlantic.


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