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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

thumpism 12-11-19 12:02 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 21241397)
I almost don't see how you could pay someone enough to do this if you don't have the determination, tools etc. to do it yourself.

You need to have been in a shop where this had to be done because the cotter began to bend. Good times.

Ged117 12-11-19 06:14 PM

The cotter press from Mark at bikesmith is my favourite bicycle tool in the arsenal. It takes away all of the worry. Cotters out in like a minute or two and after a BB service, the new ones go back in in about the same time. Taking my Peugeot crank apart I could sense the cotter pins resistance and likelihood to ruin my weekend in short order. The press removed them with no fuss. 90 percent of the time it works every time :) for the other moments, consult the Chief.

bluesteak 12-11-19 07:30 PM

Cotters
 
I usually put sewing machine oil in the hole after I take the nut off and let it soak for at least an hour. Then drive it out with a framing hammer supporting the crank arm with a pipe against a solid floor.

I have had to drill a few out.

BigChief 12-11-19 08:08 PM

After all these years of wrenching 3 speeds, I still don't have solid explanation of what causes cotters to be so tight that you have to battle to get them out. I do have a suspicion though. Here's my evidence. (1) I have never noticed any rust or corrosion on a nasty cotter after I won the battle. (2) When I have a stuck cotter, penetrating oil doesn't ever seem to help. (3) I have never had any trouble removing a cotter that I pressed in myself. I suspect that cotters that cause trouble are simply pressed or hammered in too tightly. The threaded top can only take so much pressure before it bends. When I press cotters in, I have a feeling of where to stop. I've never measured the torque but I'll guess it's around 50 ft lbs. Perhaps the person installing it had gorilla arms and gave it all he had. Or maybe hammered on it excessively. In any case, the torque I apply seems to work fine. I've never had one come loose on me. edit: I should mention that in recent years where Raleigh cotters weren't available, I have been using Raleigh taper cotters from Mark at Bike Smith.

BigChief 12-11-19 09:26 PM

One other thing I should pass along. The approach I take with cotters that start to bend when I try to press them out is simply...More Power! I don't use the flat end Starrett punches. I have a big honkin punch with a tapered shaft and a dull pointed end. I saw off the bent end of the cotter, center punch and drill it until I have a countersink that the punch fits nicely into. I think the countersink is important because I'm not kidding around when I hit that punch with the big ball peen hammer. It would be a disaster if the punch slipped off and made a mess of the crank arm. Besides the countersink centers the force from the hammer. You must have a solid support for the crank arm when you do this. This system puts much greater force against the cotter than you can get from a press. It hasn't failed me...so far. We need more POWER Scotty!!!

Goosecheck 12-11-19 09:44 PM

Pair of Threes
 
I picked up this pair of 3-speeds a couple of weeks ago. 1979 Raleigh and a 1970 Humber Sports. Dates are based on the date stamps on the SA hubs, not ironclad but thatís what Iím going with. I wanted the Humber but the Raleigh was part of the sale (I flipped in the next week).

The Humber is a Christmas gift for my 15 yr old son (he like old bikes too). It has patina (a little rust, faded paint, etc) and a good look. Needed some cleaning and minor repair. Replaced all three cables with NOS with ribbed white housing, NOS Fibrax brake pads, and a new shift cable pulley. Added a NIB Top-Lite chrome bike light and a new chrome replica pump (Sunlite). The new Brooks saddle just delivered today will replace the mattress style seat. After going over everything it became evident that the cracked plastic shifter cover would not withstand retightening the screw again without completely splitting. So I jury-rigged a new one from some spare 1/8 in thick plexiglass. Printed out a reverse image of a shifter on a clear adhesive backed Avery sheet, stuck it on the underside of the plexiglass and ground it to shape. For a one hour bodge it didnít turn out too bad. Just need to stitch up a new saddle bag and it will be ready to go.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4a81712e7.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e5ed9e343.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ca7fe461e.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8388c61da.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ecb07180c.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0d7877e9d.jpeg

nlerner 12-11-19 10:19 PM

Nice job on the repro shift lever cover. Those are notoriously fragile.

gster 12-12-19 07:10 AM

yes, quite clever.

PeterLYoung 12-12-19 07:38 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 21239997)
It is good that they stopped, but in my experience once the threaded section starts to bend, a press will only bend it more. Then, even if it does come loose, it won't fit out the hole past the spindle.I think it would be best to tape up the crank arm and hack saw off the bent section of the cotter. I suppose it's not necessary, but I like to center punch the new end and start with a small drill and work up to bigger drill so the top of the cotter has a counter sink that will hold the punch so it won't slip off and mar the crank arm. The counter sink also helps direct the force of the hammer blows in the direction it's needed. The important part is that I support the crank arm as I drive the cotter. Luckily I have a cement floor in my cellar. I put the bike in the stand, up off the tires. Then I fit a 2x4 with a hole drilled in the end grain to clear the cotter between the hard floor and the crank arm. Then I drive the cotter out with a hefty punch and hammer. So far, this has always worked for me, but I have seen other posts here where people had to drill all the way through to weaken the cotter enough to be able to drive it out. Good luck.

I never remove the nut and washer just slacken it a little (say quarter to half a turn) then use the press every time the press pushes the nut down onto the crank slacken it a little until the cotter pin is ready to fall out, then completely remove the nut and washer. This way you are unlikely to bend the threaded section because it is supported by the nut. I have always found this to work, of course there will always be the exception but for me has been rare.

Ged117 12-12-19 08:33 AM

Filter Switch Unit
 
So my 1950 Superbe came with its Dynoluxe system largely intact. The front and rear lamps, and wiring connected to the Filter Switch Unit (Details and schematic here https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...l#post13983796

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/ed...7fb598b520.jpg

Note that I do not have the "accumulator" unit, but you get the idea with this image. That was pre-Filter Switch Unit, with leaky late 1940s rechargeable cells. They switched to the FSU for that reason.

The wiring is now 70 years old, and my new drop-in LED lights from Nicelite don't work. One of the wires into the rectifier unit is cut (it has red shrink wrap, so a positive) and the bike came to me with the wiring disconnected from the AG hub, so it wasn't working decades ago prior to the bike being put into stasis. The hub has been tested, and it does produce the electron juice.

There are excellent, straight forward ways of using small bridge rectifiers inside the headlamp with a capacitor to include standlight function with modern LED lamps. I could do that, and bypass the Filter Switch Unit. Or, I would re-wire the Dynoluxe system, use some Sanyo Eneloop rechargeable units in the battery tube, and be on my way. The trick is that the rectifier unit where the torn wire goes into does not come apart. I could break it open and I suppose glue it back together once I've reconnected new wiring, but I'm not sure about that. I'd like to keep the Dynoluxe FSU system and have it working since it is original to the bike and its paint is in good shape. On the other hand, I could create a new rectifier / capacitor system in the lamps, wire them to the AG hub, and just keep the Dynoluxe tube on the bike with the wires removed for looks. That seems like a good compromise. Thoughts?

Salubrious 12-12-19 11:37 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21242614)
I could break it open and I suppose glue it back together once I've reconnected new wiring, but I'm not sure about that. I'd like to keep the Dynoluxe FSU system and have it working since it is original to the bike and its paint is in good shape. On the other hand, I could create a new rectifier / capacitor system in the lamps, wire them to the AG hub, and just keep the Dynoluxe tube on the bike with the wires removed for looks. That seems like a good compromise. Thoughts?


I'd break open the old rectifier. Inside is a selenium rectifier, which has probably gotten dreadfully inefficient over the decades since it was made. A new silicon rectifier to do the job is a lot smaller, meaning you can make it fit, and if a bit clever about it, unnoticeable.

Ged117 12-12-19 12:30 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 21242849)
I'd break open the old rectifier. Inside is a selenium rectifier, which has probably gotten dreadfully inefficient over the decades since it was made. A new silicon rectifier to do the job is a lot smaller, meaning you can make it fit, and if a bit clever about it, unnoticeable.

Fascinating! So do you think if I put one inside, and fashion perhaps a black rubber cap over-top, it would do the job? I'd have to figure out a way to connect it with the existing battery tube connector so that the batteries would power the standlight. It would need four terminals since there are four on the existing rectifier.

Do you think I could use the same rectifier this fellow did? Classic Three Speeds: LED Lighting: Circuit Board and LED's

The wiring is no good now, so I will re-wire it and use new copper connectors / hooks at the hub. I have some speaker wire I could use. I've never re-wired anything before, so this should be fun.

Thanks Salubrious.

Salubrious 12-12-19 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21242924)
Fascinating! So do you think if I put one inside, and fashion perhaps a black rubber cap over-top, it would do the job? I'd have to figure out a way to connect it with the existing battery tube connector so that the batteries would power the standlight. It would need four terminals since there are four on the existing rectifier.

Do you think I could use the same rectifier this fellow did? Classic Three Speeds: LED Lighting: Circuit Board and LED's

Yes to both. That rectifier is smaller and has far more capacity than the original!

Ged117 12-12-19 05:45 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 21243236)
Yes to both. That rectifier is smaller and has far more capacity than the original!

Great. I'm not exactly sure how I would connect the rectifier to the batteries in the tube. Alternative: I could wire a capacitor like he used into the circuit (I'm not sure which wire / connection I would interrupt to connect it - perhaps his project is a good guide for that). Then, I could hide the parts inside the battery tube, and with the capacitor, I won't need the D cells!

There won't be room for the capacitor and the rectifier in the tube (I think). I wonder if I could put the rectifier in the tube, and the capacitor inside the headlamp somehow on a circuit board? The bulb holder might be in the way. Hmm.

Ged

BigChief 12-12-19 09:49 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21243277)
Great. I'm not exactly sure how I would connect the rectifier to the batteries in the tube. Alternative: I could wire a capacitor like he used into the circuit (I'm not sure which wire / connection I would interrupt to connect it - perhaps his project is a good guide for that). Then, I could hide the parts inside the battery tube, and with the capacitor, I won't need the D cells!

There won't be room for the capacitor and the rectifier in the tube (I think). I wonder if I could put the rectifier in the tube, and the capacitor inside the headlamp somehow on a circuit board? The bulb holder might be in the way. Hmm.

Ged

This is a fascinating project. I'm going to enjoy seeing what you come up with.

Salubrious 12-13-19 01:25 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21243277)
Great. I'm not exactly sure how I would connect the rectifier to the batteries in the tube. Alternative: I could wire a capacitor like he used into the circuit (I'm not sure which wire / connection I would interrupt to connect it - perhaps his project is a good guide for that). Then, I could hide the parts inside the battery tube, and with the capacitor, I won't need the D cells!

There won't be room for the capacitor and the rectifier in the tube (I think). I wonder if I could put the rectifier in the tube, and the capacitor inside the headlamp somehow on a circuit board? The bulb holder might be in the way. Hmm.

Ged

If you are using batteries, there is no need for the capacitor. That is simply there to reduce the flashing that otherwise occurs when the LED is operating and the wheel is spinning. When you have batteries it won't be flashing. The rectifier will simply be charging the batteries as the wheel spins. Its important that the rectifier get no energy from the wheel if the lighting system isn't on. Otherwise you can overcharge and damage the batteries.

Ged117 12-13-19 01:39 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 21244306)
If you are using batteries, there is no need for the capacitor. That is simply there to reduce the flashing that otherwise occurs when the LED is operating and the wheel is spinning. When you have batteries it won't be flashing. The rectifier will simply be charging the batteries as the wheel spins. Its important that the rectifier get no energy from the wheel if the lighting system isn't on. Otherwise you can overcharge and damage the batteries.

How could I connect the D batteries in the tube to a new rectifier? If there is a way to do that, it sounds like my preferred option. I"m just not sure what the interface between the D cells and silicon bridge rectifier would look like.

The connection would be AG hub > rectifier + battery tube / head lamp and tail lamp wiring.

Thanks for your suggestions. I would likely ride with the lights on all the time to prevent damage to the batteries. I also ride the Superbe very "gently", except for that time the cycling club passed me. I downshifted and let the lion roar for a few minutes.

Salubrious 12-13-19 02:50 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 21244322)
How could I connect the D batteries in the tube to a new rectifier? If there is a way to do that, it sounds like my preferred option. I"m just not sure what the interface between the D cells and silicon bridge rectifier would look like.

The connection would be AG hub > rectifier + battery tube / head lamp and tail lamp wiring.

The old rectifier should already be connected to the batteries.

gster 12-14-19 10:55 AM

Still Out There
Here's a Raleigh, year unknown for sale @ $80.00 OBO here in
Toronto.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...802c17578d.jpg

FBOATSB 12-14-19 08:38 PM

Started the tear down on the '74 Sports today. It shifts through the gears on the stand even without any lube on the cable or shifter. The chain has many stiff links as well so it goes into a mineral spirits bath before I even bother to check for stretch.
The cotters pressed out without a hitch, cranks came off easily. I'll let some penetrating oil work on the cups before I attempt to remove them and see what shape the spindle is in. Feels dry as a bone.
The rear fender appears to have a broken tab or missing hardware, as there was a zip tie holding it to the chain stay bridge, looks like a P-clamp could fix that when I reassemble. One of the screws on the front fender was stuck tight so I put some penetrant on it and called it a night.
This bike has the original tires on it. Raleigh branded with a 74 in a circle molded in the sides. Judging by the tread wear I'd say it's got pretty low miles on it.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9cae0eebfa.jpg

BigChief 12-15-19 06:27 AM


Originally Posted by FBOATSB (Post 21245574)
Started the tear down on the '74 Sports today. It shifts through the gears on the stand even without any lube on the cable or shifter. The chain has many stiff links as well so it goes into a mineral spirits bath before I even bother to check for stretch.
The cotters pressed out without a hitch, cranks came off easily. I'll let some penetrating oil work on the cups before I attempt to remove them and see what shape the spindle is in. Feels dry as a bone.
The rear fender appears to have a broken tab or missing hardware, as there was a zip tie holding it to the chain stay bridge, looks like a P-clamp could fix that when I reassemble. One of the screws on the front fender was stuck tight so I put some penetrant on it and called it a night.
This bike has the original tires on it. Raleigh branded with a 74 in a circle molded in the sides. Judging by the tread wear I'd say it's got pretty low miles on it.

Glad to hear that cotter pressed out. I was expecting you to have to go to plan B on that one. The rear mudguard had a small clip that attached it to the bridge. The drive side bottom bracket cup is a bear to remove. It's easy to service without taking it off. I just reach in with a stick and rag soaked in solvent to clean it. On a 70s Sports, you will either find 11 1/4" loose bearings on each side or 7 bearings in plastic cages. Personally, I think it makes more sense to use the greater number of bearings since the BB get so much stress on it, so I use loose bearings. When putting it back together, the grease will hold the 11 bearings in place on the spindle as you thread it through the still in place drive side cup. If you want to remove the DS cup, remember that it is a left hand thread. Bikesmith sells a tool that makes the job much easier. edit: another trouble saving tip is to buy new cotters with the proper Raleigh taper cut from Bikesmith. http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/CotterPress/cotters.html

gster 12-15-19 10:14 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 21245797)
Glad to hear that cotter pressed out. I was expecting you to have to go to plan B on that one. The rear mudguard had a small clip that attached it to the bridge. The drive side bottom bracket cup is a bear to remove. It's easy to service without taking it off. I just reach in with a stick and rag soaked in solvent to clean it. On a 70s Sports, you will either find 11 1/4" loose bearings on each side or 7 bearings in plastic cages. Personally, I think it makes more sense to use the greater number of bearings since the BB get so much stress on it, so I use loose bearings. When putting it back together, the grease will hold the 11 bearings in place on the spindle as you thread it through the still in place drive side cup. If you want to remove the DS cup, remember that it is a left hand thread. Bikesmith sells a tool that makes the job much easier. edit: another trouble saving tip is to buy new cotters with the proper Raleigh taper cut from Bikesmith. Bicycle Crank Cotters

I've never found caged bearings on a Raleigh bike, although I've only had mid 70's and earlier bikes.
I agree on loose, a bit harder to install but well worth the effort.

FBOATSB 12-15-19 10:45 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 21245797)
Glad to hear that cotter pressed out. I was expecting you to have to go to plan B on that one. The rear mudguard had a small clip that attached it to the bridge. The drive side bottom bracket cup is a bear to remove. It's easy to service without taking it off. I just reach in with a stick and rag soaked in solvent to clean it. On a 70s Sports, you will either find 11 1/4" loose bearings on each side or 7 bearings in plastic cages. Personally, I think it makes more sense to use the greater number of bearings since the BB get so much stress on it, so I use loose bearings. When putting it back together, the grease will hold the 11 bearings in place on the spindle as you thread it through the still in place drive side cup. If you want to remove the DS cup, remember that it is a left hand thread. Bikesmith sells a tool that makes the job much easier. edit: another trouble saving tip is to buy new cotters with the proper Raleigh taper cut from Bikesmith. Bicycle Crank Cotters

+1 That massive press from Bikesmith shoved that cotter right out without hesitation. It came out the bottom straightened out. Here is the crank after cleaning.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0829a118f2.jpg
OK I see that fender clip now. Looks like it's designed for quick assembly but very easy to lose after the fact. Here's a pic of one on ebay.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4a6234d77.jpeg
I think I'll use one these P clips readily available at the local hardware.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5df6b6aa7.jpeg
I have that cup tool as well. It fits on both sides on this particular bike. I'll take this fixed cup out so I can get some proper anti-seize in there since it is possible it has never been removed since leaving the factory and who knows what they used on it if anything. First I'll address the stuck screw on the fork eyelet and let the spindle soak. Normally when I get a new/old bike the first thing I do is totally strip the frame and put all the loose parts in a bucket to deal with later. I'm going to take my time with this one as it has to last all winter. Seems it's going to need little in the way of repair/replace.

BigChief 12-15-19 11:53 AM

Oh, that's great. I didn't know you already had all those good tools. Bikesmith has sure made my life with old 3 speeds better. I used to use an awkward clamp on bench vise and wrench socket to press cotters. I also spent hours filing modern cotters trying to get a good fit while getting a proper 180 degree spread of the crank arms at the same time. Even after all that work, I still ended up with cheap, crappy cotters. Now I'm on easy street with Mark's cotters. They press right in, come right out again when I want them to and the crank lines up perfectly every time.

BigChief 12-15-19 12:22 PM

That looks like a perfect clip for the mudguard. There's one other thing about these bottom brackets. At least it's something I've had to deal with mostly on later models and this can even happen on the adjustable cup. Most of the time, the cups will back out smoothly. The last half inch or so will back out by hand. But sometimes they are crabby and stiff backing out right to the very end. I clean up the threads with a brass brush and oil them, but still, they can be very stiff. Just too tight a fit. This makes it really hard to feel when the threads are properly engaging when you reassemble. The threads are fine and you sure don't want to cross thread them, but at some point you just have to trust to fate and start cranking the cup back in. I think it's a quality control issue. Raleigh seemed to have more of those as time went on.

markk900 12-15-19 02:02 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 21245797)
When putting it back together, the grease will hold the 11 bearings in place on the spindle as you thread it through the still in place drive side cup

I usually fill the DS cup with grease and put the loose bearings in, then slide the spindle in place. You can get a lot of grease in from the no DS side and smoosh it around through the spindle hole.

gster 12-15-19 04:00 PM


Originally Posted by FBOATSB (Post 21246001)
+1 That massive press from Bikesmith shoved that cotter right out without hesitation. It came out the bottom straightened out. Here is the crank after cleaning.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0829a118f2.jpg
OK I see that fender clip now. Looks like it's designed for quick assembly but very easy to lose after the fact. Here's a pic of one on ebay.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4a6234d77.jpeg
I think I'll use one these P clips readily available at the local hardware.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5df6b6aa7.jpeg
I have that cup tool as well. It fits on both sides on this particular bike. I'll take this fixed cup out so I can get some proper anti-seize in there since it is possible it has never been removed since leaving the factory and who knows what they used on it if anything. First I'll address the stuck screw on the fork eyelet and let the spindle soak. Normally when I get a new/old bike the first thing I do is totally strip the frame and put all the loose parts in a bucket to deal with later. I'm going to take my time with this one as it has to last all winter. Seems it's going to need little in the way of repair/replace.

That lower fender bracket does tend to rattle around a bit....
It's annoying.

gster 12-15-19 04:14 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 21246178)
I usually fill the DS cup with grease and put the loose bearings in, then slide the spindle in place. You can get a lot of grease in from the no DS side and smoosh it around through the spindle hole.

Smooshing sounds like a highly technical and complicated procedure.
I would leave that to a trained "Smoosher".
Most start off as Apprentice Smooshers and after 4 years (or more) graduate to
Master Smooshers, with all rights and privileges bestowed in a somewhat secret ritual.
I've probably said too much as is.
In Germany they're called "Schmoozers" which is essentially the same position
but the uniform is more ornate.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3d75d09956.png
"My name is Hans, may I schmooz your spindle?"

markk900 12-15-19 05:25 PM

Shhhhhh - donít give away all zee secrets...

FBOATSB 12-15-19 05:56 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 21246079)
That looks like a perfect clip for the mudguard. There's one other thing about these bottom brackets. At least it's something I've had to deal with mostly on later models and this can even happen on the adjustable cup. Most of the time, the cups will back out smoothly. The last half inch or so will back out by hand. But sometimes they are crabby and stiff backing out right to the very end. I clean up the threads with a brass brush and oil them, but still, they can be very stiff. Just too tight a fit. This makes it really hard to feel when the threads are properly engaging when you reassemble. The threads are fine and you sure don't want to cross thread them, but at some point you just have to trust to fate and start cranking the cup back in. I think it's a quality control issue. Raleigh seemed to have more of those as time went on.

I went ahead and pulled the cups and spindle today without too much trouble, totally dried out inside. While pulling out all the loose balls this little guy fell out with them. Alive and well.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5411b33699.jpg
I put it outside. It doesn't need to spend the winter in my basement.


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