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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

johnnyspaghetti 06-29-18 07:53 AM


Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti (Post 20418857)
Stole my 62 Sports .I cut up the schwinns with the Sawzall. because why would i want that if it was destin put in the garbage. Traded for a 62 Hercules Hathorne . It was a better deal

Sorry about the schwinn attitude but i have Raleigh's I trade for what ever I can get. It works out for nice parts.I don't Schwinn.

SirMike1983 06-29-18 07:59 AM

An FYI - selling the tall frame 5-speed Sprite. Check C&V Sales forum for the thread if you're interested.

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...43-jpg.830472/

johnnyspaghetti 06-29-18 08:32 AM

Looks out of the buget i blew.

Nokton 06-29-18 02:17 PM

A Couple of Additions to My 3 Speed Fleet
 
I have one English three-speed that I bought about a year ago--a virtually untouched AMF Hercules built by Raleigh. Since that bike is so nice, I just replaced the wear parts (tires, brake pads, saddle, handlebar grips, cables and housings) and use it as an occaisional "wow this bike is amazing for almost 50 years old" ride".

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2c713ee1de.jpg

Since I got the Hercules I've been looking for another English three-speed that I could use as the basis for a more ambitious project. Until last week, I hadn't seen anything that really piqued my interest. Today, I made a two hour drive to pick up three what I believe are 1974 Raleighs, two of which are three speeds.

My current plan is to restore the smaller of the two Sports using the best parts of the two bikes, add a Pletscher rack, and turn it into a "touring" bike in case I'm ever able to go on the Lake Pepin three speed tour. I think it looks sound enough to do this. I will use the best fenders from both bikes. I also have an old chrome plated pump that I'd like to mount on the frame if I can find the right mounting hardware. I'd appreciate suggestions about where to find the right "gizmos" for this.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8d07945207.jpg

My plan for the bigger bike is to build either a "scorcher" or a Clubman-type bike with updated parts--aluminum rims, handlebars, stem and seatpost. I will remove the fenders and chain guard and have a nice riding, fun build. I haven't decided which of these two bike type to build and I'd love to have input on what the best use of this bike is.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4aa6dede7d.jpg

Thanks for any input anyone has on putting these bikes, which have been stored for many years, back on the road.

Nokton 06-29-18 02:24 PM

What to do with a 1970s Raleigh Grand Prix?
 
Sorry. I thought I was posting a new thread in "Classic & Vintage", but it's a reply here instead. I guess it's okay if I decide to use an internally geared hub:)

As part of a package deal, I picked up what I think is a 1974 Raleigh Grand Prix. I have a couple of projects underway that will make use of some of the parts from this bike (hubs, handlebars, stem and possibly derailleurs and shifters). I'll be left with a decidedly utilitarian, but still very pretty frame as well as some other parts. I'm trying to decide what to do with the frame. The thoughts of building either another single speed (I have a 1970 Raleigh Record that I converted to a single speed) or of getting an internally geared hub and building a drop bar three or five speed have occurred to me, but I'm really undecided. I got the bike for very little as a throw-in on two Raleigh Sports that I really wanted, but I don't want to pass up the opportunity for a fun build.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do with this frame?

Thanks
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4ea68737e5.jpg

clubman 06-29-18 06:06 PM

I see it as an easy flip. Nice shape, it's only real value is intact and original. Otherwise you'll just be putting your time and resources into another low-ish quality bike build. 2 cents, of course.

BigChief 06-29-18 06:21 PM

Here's something for those of us interested in old Raleigh details. This kickstand type is new to me. I'll take more photos later. Also seen is the 1950s style lower rear mudguard tab. Not sure when this was changed to the U clip. My 55 Rudge had the tab, my 64 Sports has the clip.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9389376d33.jpg

browngw 06-29-18 09:16 PM


Originally Posted by Nokton (Post 20419834)
Sorry. I thought I was posting a new thread in "Classic & Vintage", but it's a reply here instead. I guess it's okay if I decide to use an internally geared hub:)

As part of a package deal, I picked up what I think is a 1974 Raleigh Grand Prix. I have a couple of projects underway that will make use of some of the parts from this bike (hubs, handlebars, stem and possibly derailleurs and shifters). I'll be left with a decidedly utilitarian, but still very pretty frame as well as some other parts. I'm trying to decide what to do with the frame. The thoughts of building either another single speed (I have a 1970 Raleigh Record that I converted to a single speed) or of getting an internally geared hub and building a drop bar three or five speed have occurred to me, but I'm really undecided. I got the bike for very little as a throw-in on two Raleigh Sports that I really wanted, but I don't want to pass up the opportunity for a fun build.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do with this frame?

Thanks
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4ea68737e5.jpg

I happen to like the old Records and Grand Prix. I have used a few of them as pleasant work for winter weather. Some have been cleaned up and sold (tires, cables bar tape, etc .) and sold in the $150-180 range. Others were given up right bars and stem shifters and sold for the same dollars. One was up-graded from the parts bin and sold for $200. In some respects it is unfair to consider them "cheap" when our beloved 3speeds used the same materials and are even heavier. Have fun with it! Looks like a 23" frame, wouldn't mind having it myself.

SirMike1983 06-29-18 09:28 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20420214)
Here's something for those of us interested in old Raleigh details. This kickstand type is new to me. I'll take more photos later. Also seen is the 1950s style lower rear mudguard tab. Not sure when this was changed to the U clip. My 55 Rudge had the tab, my 64 Sports has the clip.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9389376d33.jpg

Raleigh made a kickstand specifically for that style of fender - the kickstand had a notch cut into the top plate and the plate surrounded the fender bolt. The kickstand shown here is a 1960s-style stand that had a turnable top plate (the plate can go the long way on a narrower frame. These stands are notorious for making deep dents on the tops of the chainstays. This was the type of stand that dented the stays on my Raleigh Sprite. The earlier specially-made stands and the later Raleigh 1970s stands with wedge-shaped top plates are better. These stands are losers, in my book and I dump them whenever they start giving trouble.

Johno59 06-30-18 12:31 AM

A deadly combination. The crushing of the chainstays by the stand clamp and the fender bolt thru the chainstay stiffner means this section of the frame can suffer serious/irreparable damage from rust. No stand and a clip on attachment for the fender eliminates both of these potential hazards. When I buy an old English bike the underside of the view in your photo is the first place I look. Not to see if there is any damage but to assess how bad it is. The prevalence of the damage in this area across all of Raleigh's bikes from the 60s onwards suggests it was a design feature reflecting the inbuilt obsolescence/redundancy mindset that ending up destroying a industrial colossus that had a global reputation grounded in the complete opposite of such folly.

BigChief 06-30-18 04:45 AM

I tend to use the Pletscher ESGE stands from the 70s Raleighs on my bikes, even if they were not original. Especially if they had the tippy cast Sir Walter style stand. I hate it when bikes fall over. It wouldn't bother me to learn this stand was added sometime in the 60s si I could replace it with a Pletscher, but I don't think it was. The hub date here is 1951, the bike is in exceptionally original condition and I don't see any sign of a different clamp used. There is some deformation of the left chainstay, but nothing out of the ordinary. No rust issues. But...I'd love to know more about what steel kickstands Raleigh was using during this period. I'm sticking as close as I can to originality on this project.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3b93f872d5.jpg

Johno59 06-30-18 05:52 AM

My Holdsworth was knocked over last night which is always a depressing sight to behold. But I can't stand these things despite the sensibility of the concept. The nylon bush securing it in the up position wears out and they rattle. They deform the frame tubing and misguided folks used to tighten them even more - and therein lies the rub. A tapered sleeve on both stays would probably stop the carnage but I have never seen this done.

As a kid many an ankle bone was exposed by these things dangling down and leaving you with bloodied socks and very tender bits sticking out.

I mean to say look at the quality of the forging - a plumbers delight.

The upright bi-pod ones wherein you rock the bike back and the whole bike is lifted to the standing position were much better made but 3 times the weight.

Johno59 06-30-18 06:22 AM


Originally Posted by Dannihilator (Post 20418604)

Really nice condition and the original decals are some of the most interesting I've seen.

Cute Boy Horse 06-30-18 06:26 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20420588)
The prevalence of the damage in this area across all of Raleigh's bikes from the 60s onwards suggests it was a design feature reflecting the inbuilt obsolescence/redundancy mindset that ending up destroying a industrial colossus that had a global reputation grounded in the complete opposite of such folly.

The death of Raleigh comes from them being a subsidiary of a larger company, and the belief that the bicycle as a method of adult transportation was now only for the very poor. Produce such products without investment until they met an expense sales figures couldn't justify then drop them. As such Raleigh died at the TI takeover. Their planned destiny was always to be shuttered and the name put on racing and children's bikes.

The bike enthusiast mass neuroses about kickstands never ceases to amuse me. Enthusiastishly finding lamp posts and walls to lean it against every time you get off, and then looking back to make sure it's not going to roll slightly and tip over, all because you think you're definitely going to ruin the frame by screwing them on too tight. Meanwhile millions of bikes a year leave the factory with them and their owners never notice this terrible catastrophe has happened to them. Similarly Harley Davidson owners often believe the front brake should never be used, and a particular type of wealthy music fan will spend hundreds of dollars on mystery devices that claim to improve sound but are actually totally inert. It's all hokum. Some sort of collective delusion spread by internet.

BigChief 06-30-18 06:48 AM

I can see not wanting to bolt a stand on your high performance chromoly touring bike, but to me they belong on a roadster.
The rims are turning out very nicely. Just did a quick clean up here on the front. Didn't even pull the old Dunlops off yet. Say what you want about Raleigh, but their chrome was excellent. These Westrick rims are Raleigh stamped with a matte finish on the raised section. The stainless spokes are still perfect. What a shame they stopped using them.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...61b1f6af92.jpg

BigChief 06-30-18 06:52 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20420795)
Really nice condition and the original decals are some of the most interesting I've seen.

I especially like the Ride awheel on Sheffield steel transfer.

Johno59 06-30-18 08:04 AM


Originally Posted by Cute Boy Horse (Post 20420804)
The death of Raleigh comes from them being a subsidiary of a larger company, and the belief that the bicycle as a method of adult transportation was now only for the very poor. Produce such products without investment until they met an expense sales figures couldn't justify then drop them. As such Raleigh died at the TI takeover. Their planned destiny was always to be shuttered and the name put on racing and children's bikes.

The bike enthusiast mass neuroses about kickstands never ceases to amuse me. Enthusiastishly finding lamp posts and walls to lean it against every time you get off, and then looking back to make sure it's not going to roll slightly and tip over, all because you think you're definitely going to ruin the frame by screwing them on too tight. Meanwhile millions of bikes a year leave the factory with them and their owners never notice this terrible catastrophe has happened to them. Similarly Harley Davidson owners often believe the front brake should never be used, and a particular type of wealthy music fan will spend hundreds of dollars on mystery devices that claim to improve sound but are actually totally inert. It's all hokum. Some sort of collective delusion spread by internet.

Well in the lands where bikes are king - Holland, Denmark and Sweden, kickstands are the rule rather than the exception. So you are in good company there.
In the UK and Sweden it is my experience that not locking your bike to something immovable virtually guarantees it wil be stolen by the next day.

Having ridden motorcycles for nearly 50 years I must confess I have never heard anyone ever mention your front brake rant. I dare suggest the fact that under hard braking 90% of your stopping power is on your front wheel - just like a bicycle - might have something to do with it.

Johno59 06-30-18 10:24 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20420833)
I can see not wanting to bolt a stand on your high performance chromoly touring bike, but to me they belong on a roadster.
The rims are turning out very nicely. Just did a quick clean up here on the front. Didn't even pull the old Dunlops off yet. Say what you want about Raleigh, but their chrome was excellent. These Westrick rims are Raleigh stamped with a matte finish on the raised section. The stainless spokes are still perfect. What a shame they stopped using them.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...61b1f6af92.jpg

In the UK the solution to the danger posed by icy roads is to put down heavily salted grit. The effect on metal is horrendous. It is a selling point to declare a bike to be never ridden in winter. (owing to the comparitive lack of salt on summer roads).
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3b226233b8.jpg

This Raleigh wheel was kept out of the weather for nearly 70 years.

You have a rust problem with steel and galvanising problem with all metals. Even stainless steel is attacked by the corrosive environment created by salt and moisture.

Cute Boy Horse 06-30-18 11:01 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20420912)
Having ridden motorcycles for nearly 50 years I must confess I have never heard anyone ever mention your front brake rant. I dare suggest the fact that under hard braking 90% of your stopping power is on your front wheel - just like a bicycle - might have something to do with it.

Of course, and motorcyclists and Harley Davidson owners very rarely overlap, Harleys aren't motorcycles but more of a fantasy object for fat old men who have lead financially successful but very unsatisfying lives. Bank managers, dentists, etc. So they buy lots of branded jackets, trousers etc for their once a week ride around their neighborhood and back home again. So naturally when they congregate together they tell each other very strange things.

But still. In my mind a bicycle without a kickstand is unfinished.

Johno59 06-30-18 12:34 PM

You never can tell what people actually believe or are.

Good example was today. It is a beautiful summer's day here in SE England. They don't happen often but when they do it's glorious.

For many, many years an unassuming Frenchman (retired) stops every afternoon at the local pub and has a half-pint of ale and leaves. Never says a word and is considered by the regulars as a bit of an oddball. He rides an old (they went broke in the 1970s) Lambretta scooter with a very rare, skirted canvas fairing that covers your legs. Old ladies back in the day used this wraparound fairing to keep their dresses/shoes/stockings/handbags etc out of the wind and rain. Sure - no worries - a bit of an odd configuration (especially in the summer) but there you go. Quiet unassuming guy - nice but dull.

Today the same French guy rides in for his half-pint. But today he's riding a water-cooled Indian Scout Bobber with tear-drop leather saddles latched with brass buckles to scoop the bikes skeleton cut-down leather upholstery.

It was like damn.....America has just entered the building!

People just WTF! Who knew? - old half-pint Frenchie is bad-ass Captain America in disguise.

Sonofa*****!

Goes to show you never can tell.

markk900 06-30-18 12:56 PM

So getting “inspired” these days with all of your posts. Went for a 10-15km ride on the 49 Humber the other day. To be honest it was wonderful - the panaracer tires were perfect; the ride was smooth; and the inevitable stopping to talk to folks was a pleasure. The the dilemma is: strip it down and repaint? Currently it wears 60+ years of patina with the original royal blue being mostly a reminder of the past...I am ok with it as is but as I see you all doing these gr at restorations I wonder if preservation of a story that starts and ends with me is enough - I have a full decal set ready to apply and a new head badge waiting in the wings... so tell me: how important is patina when you know nothing of the past history?

browngw 06-30-18 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by Cute Boy Horse (Post 20420804)
The bike enthusiast mass neuroses about kickstands never ceases to amuse me. Enthusiastishly finding lamp posts and walls to lean it against every time you get off, and then looking back to make sure it's not going to roll slightly and tip over, all because you think you're definitely going to ruin the frame by screwing them on too tight. Meanwhile millions of bikes a year leave the factory with them and their owners never notice this terrible catastrophe has happened to them. Similarly Harley Davidson owners often believe the front brake should never be used, and a particular type of wealthy music fan will spend hundreds of dollars on mystery devices that claim to improve sound but are actually totally inert. It's all hokum. Some sort of collective delusion spread by internet.

Well said! The damage we see on vintage bikes is almost always much worse on bikes without stands. Paint and decals are chewed away by leaning on hard surfaces. I recently sold a 2010 Giant Cypress Hybrid. The new owner took the fenders and kickstand off. I'll never understand. I guess most people hop on for a half hour on sunny days and lean it back up against the junk in their garage when they return. Go figure.

BigChief 06-30-18 01:34 PM

I don't know about the UK, but the Harley culture here in America is much more working class. Nice folks, most of em. One did say to me that my Bonneville was a good girl's bike. With a totally straight face I said that it was a light bike, but you do have to kick start that high compression engine. There's no "little button" to push.

browngw 06-30-18 01:54 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 20421302)
So getting “inspired” these days with all of your posts. Went for a 10-15km ride on the 49 Humber the other day. To be honest it was wonderful - the panaracer tires were perfect; the ride was smooth; and the inevitable stopping to talk to folks was a pleasure. The the dilemma is: strip it down and repaint? Currently it wears 60+ years of patina with the original royal blue being mostly a reminder of the past...I am ok with it as is but as I see you all doing these gr at restorations I wonder if preservation of a story that starts and ends with me is enough - I have a full decal set ready to apply and a new head badge waiting in the wings... so tell me: how important is patina when you know nothing of the past history?

The "patina" word has come up again. In my opinion the word often describes degradation, not something the normal signs of wear on a carefully maintained object. For the past 25 years, I have been the custodian of a Triumph TR7 convertible. The motto of our club (Toronto Triumph Club) is "All to preserve and drive the Triumph" Basically I have done that with my TR and my bikes. I have done "restomods" on bikes and carefully restored and replaced parts, but never a factory restoration. In recent years, there a few "preserved" TRs either. Most have been treated to very expensive restorations that are not in line with their value or usage. Because I deem that the next generations may not take good care of an unsightly bike, I will continue to make them usable and attractive, hopefully without changing their essence. This recent '72 Holdsworth rebuild is an example of careful detailing and paint touch https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...53f9268779.jpg
up to that end. As the owner and custodian of your bikes, you get to decide.

BigChief 06-30-18 02:00 PM

Found it! I knew I had one. I really need to organize my collection of bike stuff. I think I'll swap out the threaded driver with this straight leg splined one. For all I know a shouldered one would work also, but this is a sure thing. Nice to have cog options and it is a reversible mod. Right now, the hub won't engage low gear. Good chance it's tired pawl springs. I need new guitar strings anyway.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5e1137cb79.jpg

markk900 06-30-18 02:28 PM

@browngw - of course you are correct; and in the case of my Humber I think a repaint will be worth it! However, then I may be tempted to replace the rims too!

Johno59 06-30-18 02:48 PM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 20421302)
So getting “inspired” these days with all of your posts. Went for a 10-15km ride on the 49 Humber the other day. To be honest it was wonderful - the panaracer tires were perfect; the ride was smooth; and the inevitable stopping to talk to folks was a pleasure. The the dilemma is: strip it down and repaint? Currently it wears 60+ years of patina with the original royal blue being mostly a reminder of the past...I am ok with it as is but as I see you all doing these gr at restorations I wonder if preservation of a story that starts and ends with me is enough - I have a full decal set ready to apply and a new head badge waiting in the wings... so tell me: how important is patina when you know nothing of the past history?

Lloyds Decals in the UK reproduce faithfully most English-made bike decals going back to before WW1.

No business can afford to completely refurbish a rusty old bike for less than $1000. As we all know you'd be lucky to get a quarter of that back - no matter how faithful/exquisite the end product. For this reason they push the so-called exotica aspect of unrestored/original bikes.

I prefer to appeal to someone who will be still alive in 20, 30, 50 years who could still be riding the bike. A vinegar, beeswax, lemon juiced 'sympathetic restoration' won't last for more than a few years if the bike is used as a means of transport instead of something wheeled out once a year at Thanksgiving..

No kid ever wanted a dull rusty old bike for Xmas regardless of the sentimental value.

Back in their heyday Raleigh, Sunbeam, Rudge, BSA, Phillips never had a dull, rusty scratched finished option listed in their catalogue - for obvious reasons. It's hardly likely to appeal to the current generation.

IMHO, bling the frame as much as you want with as bright colors as you want. To give it heritage - wire-brush the original pitted/scarred groupset / accessories, kill-rust them and seal them with a good catalysed two-pack clear lacquer. This 'distressed finish' on solid steel won't degrade the bike's mechanical integrity but will reflect a 'my granddad's old bike' kudos/heritage that will not degrade for decades. Brand new original-design decals on a flamboyant-colored frame satisfies the shiny new bike wish and in doing so might get a young person to still be riding the bike long after we're all dead.

Hopefully 50 years from now they will do it all again.

BigChief 06-30-18 07:03 PM

I've always been a historian at hart. I enjoy artifacts as windows into the past and a source of knowledge. Fortunately for our particular hobby, the artifacts are not one of a kind or even especially rare. We can indulge in balancing preservation and restoration in different ways without depriving anyone the experience of purely preserved examples. In my opinion preservation is always 100% valid, no matter the condition. So, there's plenty of room here for everything from total restorations and modifications to museum quality preservations... It's all good and a fun hobby.

Cute Boy Horse 06-30-18 09:20 PM

"Patina" vs repaint is a difficult one. When it was new my superbe had gold pinstriping everywhere. Mudguards, top tube, down tube, seat tube, forks. All faded to ghosts now, destroyed by the sun, except for a little bit hidden by the back mudguard clip. I don't know anyone who can do pinstriping, and I don't have accurate references for it. The paint has a ton of scratches, several chips that are rusting, a little rust starting to bloom near one of the lugs. Now I could get this sandblasted and probably even powder coated a very similar colour. But Raleighs were polished, rustproofed, then painted. Can I get a similar finish with a mystery powdercoat material over rough, sandblasted metal? Experience says no. It'd have a different shine and probably lose definition in the lugs. Then there is the decals. Copies are available, but not the bike shop's, and the ones that are will be printed on thick white vinyl, you can always see the edge of it. Even the "good" ones from H Lloyd. Not even getting into the need to clearcoat over them, which is honestly a huge pain in the ass with a big risk of going wrong.

It never looks right. So I don't bother with that sort of stuff anymore.


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20421357)
I don't know about the UK, but the Harley culture here in America is much more working class. Nice folks, most of em. One did say to me that my Bonneville was a good girl's bike. With a totally straight face I said that it was a light bike, but you do have to kick start that high compression engine. There's no "little button" to push.

I'm not so sure. Whenever the USA depicts what it calls "ordinary, working people" in it's export media it also calls them "the middle class" (a favorite platitude subject of politicians), and they're depicted owning big houses and multiple cars. The sort of American I'd associate with buying a new Harley would be like that except also owning a pickup truck that's never seen much work. Maybe owns a small plumbing business, loves the flag, doesn't read.

I mean, in all the time I spent in America, I met and spent time among quite a lot of proletarian people. Like my neighborhood growing up they weren't the type to afford something like a Harley and the associated fancy dress costume. They were mostly concerned with basic survival, both in food terms and also not getting shot by some blood or cop. But this would be politics.

Johno59 06-30-18 10:00 PM

" But Raleighs were polished, rustproofed, then painted. "
I was amazed to see that Raleigh's were dipped rather than painted. Literally it took a few seconds to cover them with the final coat. I have spent weeks preparing and painting a single bike without remotely getting anywhere near the finish the old boys in this video got in seconds!

'How a Bicycle is Made'


The jolly hockey sticks commentary grates a bit but I can assure you everyone else in the process spoke very differently to the actors with speaking roles in this great video.


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