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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

gster 04-29-19 06:48 AM


Originally Posted by PeterLYoung (Post 20905613)
Like you I need a project, I also like to see further projects so I don't run out!!
The boat when finished with that lovely decking Lacquered the upholstery done and the refurbish Mercury 1965 engine everyone will want a ride in it!!!!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bb754ea4c8.jpg
Many people would not see the potential in a bike like this, nor have the will to see it put right.
Looking forward to the progress reports.

PeterLYoung 04-29-19 06:54 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20905661)
Yes, I spent some time searching this out.
I actually bought 2.
The 1965 as pictured was missing the lower unit.
So I bought a 68 parts motor with a decent lower unit.
The seller was a vintage car/boat guy and he had a good
story about the 65 being a old guy's spare engine....
He only took it to church on Sundays...
We'll see.

You did well, most of that vintage are either scrapped years ago or so beat up to not be worth the effort!!

Ged117 04-29-19 01:13 PM

Hello all

I'm finished with the bottom bracket overhaul and now I want to reinstall the cranks. I've got a cotter press and new pins from Mark at Bikesmith. However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

Salubrious 04-29-19 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906366)
However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

That doesn't sound right. Why won't the press 'fit over the top'?

Ged117 04-29-19 01:53 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20906426)
That doesn't sound right. Why won't the press 'fit over the top'?

I'm a little confused about the angle. There isn't room to place the press overtop of the cotter and align the bolt properly above the cotter pin. During disassembly, the press fits with the crank arm inside the 'C', and I just pushed out the cotter pin.

It may be something obvious I'm missing. I also can't seem to get the AG hub cone adjustment done correctly today either. I did take apart the right (drive) side to have a look inside and service the bearings. Now I can't get thr adjustment right - it also seems like I have less space on the drive side axle end. I think the right side cone isn't correct. One of those shop days...

Salubrious 04-29-19 02:08 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906437)
I'm a little confused about the angle. There isn't room to place the press overtop of the cotter and align the bolt properly above the cotter pin. During disassembly, the press fits with the crank arm inside the 'C', and I just pushed out the cotter pin.

The press should be at a right angle with respect to the crank arm. Are you coming at it from the side?

clubman 04-29-19 03:13 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906366)
Hello all

I'm finished with the bottom bracket overhaul and now I want to reinstall the cranks. I've got a cotter press and new pins from Mark at Bikesmith. However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

Sounds like you're saying the pin sits too 'high' for the press to engage? By all means, tap it down a little, heeding the orientation of the bevel and finish the job as soon as the press fits. And remember the cotter pins orient 180 degrees to each other, so that your pant cuffs won't catch on the nut end, rather the domed top end of the cotter. If that makes sense?

gster 04-29-19 03:34 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906366)
Hello all

I'm finished with the bottom bracket overhaul and now I want to reinstall the cranks. I've got a cotter press and new pins from Mark at Bikesmith. However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

If the cranks are properly aligned with the spindle, the cotters should fit in by hand and
seat themselves about 1/2 way in. Then use the press (or hammer) to fully drive them home.
Not sure about your hub...
You should back off the non drive side cone and then tighten the drive side cone (finger tight)
Hub adjustment is then completed by tightening the non drive side (finger tight) and then
backing off perhaps a 1/4-1/2 turn to allow for play.
Once installed with the chain attached, the non drive side can be further adjusted.
Ideally the hub should spin freely with little or no spinning of the crank and a little
side to side play of the hub.
It's all a matter of "touch".
Over tightening the hub can mess up the innards...

Ged117 04-29-19 04:00 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20906590)
Sounds like you're saying the pin sits too 'high' for the press to engage? By all means, tap it down a little, heeding the orientation of the bevel and finish the job as soon as the press fits. And remember the cotter pins orient 180 degrees to each other, so that your pant cuffs won't catch on the nut end, rather the domed top end of the cotter. If that makes sense?

That's what I meant, thanks. How do I position the beveled side? I was a bit confused by that. This is my first cottered crank service, so I appreciate the help.

clubman 04-29-19 04:18 PM

If you slip the crank arms on the axle, rotate them and peer through the cotter pin hole, you'll see the axle flats line up with the hole and it becomes evident that the cotter's bevelled face will mate with the axle flat. You should review Sheldons page and look up a video before attempting for the first time.

Ged117 04-29-19 04:49 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20906613)
If the cranks are properly aligned with the spindle, the cotters should fit in by hand and
seat themselves about 1/2 way in. Then use the press (or hammer) to fully drive them home.
Not sure about your hub...
You should back off the non drive side cone and then tighten the drive side cone (finger tight)
Hub adjustment is then completed by tightening the non drive side (finger tight) and then
backing off perhaps a 1/4-1/2 turn to allow for play.
Once installed with the chain attached, the non drive side can be further adjusted.
Ideally the hub should spin freely with little or no spinning of the crank and a little
side to side play of the hub.
It's all a matter of "touch".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNxwMwzS3Jo
Over tightening the hub can mess up the innards...

Thanks. I'll do as you suggest. I think I got the order off with the hub and everything got a bit wonky. The inside of the hub was greasy but in great condition for 70 years old.

browngw 04-29-19 07:52 PM

I have never had a replacement cotter fit a Raleigh crank without filing the angle enough to get a tight fit and proper insertion. If it doesn't want to go, something is wrong . Lots of good ideas here for you to try. Good luck!

gster 04-29-19 08:03 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906719)
Thanks. I'll do as you suggest. I think I got the order off with the hub and everything got a bit wonky. The inside of the hub was greasy but in great condition for 70 years old.

The first time I tried to work on one (years ago) I removed the drive side and pumped
the hub full of grease.....
It seemed like a good idea at the time....

Ged117 04-30-19 06:55 AM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20906671)
If you slip the crank arms on the axle, rotate them and peer through the cotter pin hole, you'll see the axle flats line up with the hole and it becomes evident that the cotter's bevelled face will mate with the axle flat. You should review Sheldons page and look up a video before attempting for the first time.

This makes sense now. I think that is what I was missing in terms of practical theoryisms...thanks.


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 20906966)
I have never had a replacement cotter fit a Raleigh crank without filing the angle enough to get a tight fit and proper insertion. If it doesn't want to go, something is wrong . Lots of good ideas here for you to try. Good luck!

These were filed by the Bikesmith fellow, and match the original 1950 cotters. It inserted quite a bit, just needs a bit more before I can get the press on it. I think it should be OK as long as I align it properly.


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20906978)
The first time I tried to work on one (years ago) I removed the drive side and pumped
the hub full of grease.....
It seemed like a good idea at the time....

I wish I'd have adjusted the left side only, but I wanted to get in there and take a look. I will have lots of practice at any rate with this AG, my parts bin AW, and the FW destined for the Peugeot. Thanks all, I'll update when I get back there this weekend.

carfreefamily 04-30-19 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906366)
Hello all

I'm finished with the bottom bracket overhaul and now I want to reinstall the cranks. I've got a cotter press and new pins from Mark at Bikesmith. However I'm not sure how to get them started (since the press won't fit over top). Do I encourage them with a hammer and then use the press to finish the job? I don't want to mess up since those cotter pins are precious.

Thanks.

That doesn't sound right to me either. Given the way I end up working, that's a clear sign to stop what you're doing and take a close look. Are the cranks lined up with the cutaway portion of the bottom bracket axle? Are you putting the cotter pin in with the angle toward the cutaway? Sometimes when I'm tired, I forget those essential, simple things. The cotter pin should just slip in almost all the way. The press doesn't really force it into place, (speaking as someone who has used my press on exactly on job, and also as someone who has broken too many things by forcing them), I think it just sets it in place a little more firmly. Everyone else with more experience there feel free to chime in!

julius rensch 04-30-19 10:19 AM

love the Brit 3 speeds
 

Originally Posted by PolishGuy (Post 10450210)
This thread gets more interesting with each new post. As Sixty Fiver said, one isn't enough so I've attached pics of the three other Raleighs in my stable. They all have SA AW three speed hubs except the Trent Sports, shown on a prior post, which has a FW four speed laced into the new 700c wheels I had made up last year. Cobrabyte, where did you get the Tufflex tires? I put some Panaracer Col de la Vie tires on the Sports in December but I don't think they ride any better that the el cheapo Kendas I had on it previously. I also agree that the R20 is a great bike for kickin' around town. The next item I'm thinking of aquiring is a Raleigh Sports with a SA S5 gear hub. I've seen a few on e-bay but it's been a while. PG.

.................................................................................................... .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................
Thanks Polish Guy..for the memories...love your bikes, I do...
My first English 3 peed Sturmey Archer was a 1952 Indian Scout....loved it. The came a new 1955 New Hudson with Twist Grip 3 speed, folowed by a new 1960 Dunault.
Currently riding a 1972 Raleigh Tourer (purchased new, for me by my wife) This is my all time fav...with just over 60,000 miles on it.
Did a have a Raleigh Superb, with Dynamo Hub...nice bike but perhaps a little to "spindly" for height and weight.
as ever, Julius in Ohio

Salubrious 04-30-19 10:50 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906648)
That's what I meant, thanks. How do I position the beveled side? I was a bit confused by that. This is my first cottered crank service, so I appreciate the help.

One tip- often cotter pins often only go in correctly in one direction; if you are trying to insert the pin from the wrong side it might not go in very far. So try both sides of the crank. Be sure to work the crank arm back and forth with respect to the bottom bracket axle as you work the pin in place. It should go in easily!! Only then do you use the press to seat the pin. Never, ever use a hammer! You will mushroom the cotter pin and risk damaging the cotter pin face as well as the crank arm, bearings and axle!

Its an old and very wise tale that all mechanics know- if you have the right tools there is never a need to force anything. Cotter pins are such a great example of that- if they are stubborn coming out, you need to treat them with a good penetrating oil like Kanolabs.com Kroil and let it sit. Who knows what sort of abuse the bike might have had- a poor mechanic might have used a hammer to insert the pins and put a ridge on the cotter pin, or it may have sat in the rain for decades. You just don't know, but not knowing that is not a reason to use a hammer. Use finesse.

clubman 04-30-19 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by carfreefamily (Post 20907596)
The cotter pin should just slip in almost all the way. The press doesn't really force it into place,

In a perfect world. All it takes is the slightest burr on either the pin or the crank hole to cause the insertion to hang up. Nothing to worry about, tap it down.

Post WWII cotters were more precisely made with harder steel. Bevels were usually cut to fit a model of crank and they'd last decades. I've reused a set of cotters on a couple of old restorations for fun and they worked fine because they were hard enough to resist distortion when they were removed. Even with a hammer. :innocent:

Ged117 04-30-19 12:32 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20907769)
One tip- often cotter pins often only go in correctly in one direction; if you are trying to insert the pin from the wrong side it might not go in very far. So try both sides of the crank. Be sure to work the crank arm back and forth with respect to the bottom bracket axle as you work the pin in place. It should go in easily!! Only then do you use the press to seat the pin. Never, ever use a hammer! You will mushroom the cotter pin and risk damaging the cotter pin face as well as the crank arm, bearings and axle!

Its an old and very wise tale that all mechanics know- if you have the right tools there is never a need to force anything. Cotter pins are such a great example of that- if they are stubborn coming out, you need to treat them with a good penetrating oil like Kanolabs.com Kroil and let it sit. Who knows what sort of abuse the bike might have had- a poor mechanic might have used a hammer to insert the pins and put a ridge on the cotter pin, or it may have sat in the rain for decades. You just don't know, but not knowing that is not a reason to use a hammer. Use finesse.

Well said. I think I had them in wrong, and didn't ensure the cranks were situated properly. I'll try again armed with this knowledge. The cotters I pulled out were original, and I let them soak in PB for a day or so before I used the cotter press (an excellent tool; I think it took all of 3 minutes to finish the job on both sides). I was very careful however one of them had a slight bend afterward; otherwise I would have used the originals. Since Bikesmith makes excellent replacements, I feel good using those. This weekend I'm going to install the cranks, adjust the AG hub and install the wheels, brake components, and new shifter cable (I think I have to pry the shifter pawl up a bit to fit the cable, as per instructions here). Fulcrum clip, etc. Once I have the hub shifting nicely, I'm going to bolt on the Cyclo 3-speed derailer after it gets some grease and lube for the cable. Set up looks tricky for it. I'll take a bunch of photos since the paint has come out of the clean and polish process reasonably well but with lots of age marks. The front wheel needs truing as well...

carfreefamily 04-30-19 01:17 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20907956)
adjust the AG hub and install the wheels, brake components, and new shifter cable (I think I have to pry the shifter pawl up a bit to fit the cable, as per instructions here). Fulcrum clip, etc. Once I have the hub shifting nicely, I'm going to bolt on the Cyclo 3-speed derailer after it gets some grease and lube for the cable. Set up looks tricky for it. I'll take a bunch of photos since the paint has come out of the clean and polish process reasonably well but with lots of age marks. The front wheel needs truing as well...

I haven't been following the thread closely enough to know how much you are doing with your AG hub, but I can say I spent a good deal of time, after cleaning all the innards and repacking the bearings on mine, trying to get the bearings adjusted. It's the same old story that tightening the locknut seems to tighten the cone a little bit, and it's hard to gauge everything because of the dynohub. I've read that there's supposed to be a little bit of play, so I aimed for the smallest little wiggle to the hub when I rock the rim back and forth, that I could detect. It took many, many tries.

gster 04-30-19 02:23 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20907388)
This makes sense now. I think that is what I was missing in terms of practical theoryisms...thanks.



These were filed by the Bikesmith fellow, and match the original 1950 cotters. It inserted quite a bit, just needs a bit more before I can get the press on it. I think it should be OK as long as I align it properly.



I wish I'd have adjusted the left side only, but I wanted to get in there and take a look. I will have lots of practice at any rate with this AG, my parts bin AW, and the FW destined for the Peugeot. Thanks all, I'll update when I get back there this weekend.

The hubs can be a bit confusing the first few times but
once you've got the hang of it they start to go back together
fairly quickly.
That video is quite helpful.

3speedslow 04-30-19 04:49 PM

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4921931f4.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b3b852f1e.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...de73fb967.jpeg
Had a nice ride over to the river for a high tea.

gster 04-30-19 05:56 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20907804)
In a perfect world. All it takes is the slightest burr on either the pin or the crank hole to cause the insertion to hang up. Nothing to worry about, tap it down.

Post WWII cotters were more precisely made with harder steel. Bevels were usually cut to fit a model of crank and they'd last decades. I've reused a set of cotters on a couple of old restorations for fun and they worked fine because they were hard enough to resist distortion when they were removed. Even with a hammer. :innocent:

The cotters on the 1930 Hercules came out like butter...
And I think that they'd been in there a very long time.
Much easier than most modern bikes...
I also hit them with a hammer, both in and out.
BTW, your rim is being built and should be ready
by tomorrow.

Ged117 05-01-19 07:16 AM


Originally Posted by carfreefamily (Post 20908023)
I haven't been following the thread closely enough to know how much you are doing with your AG hub, but I can say I spent a good deal of time, after cleaning all the innards and repacking the bearings on mine, trying to get the bearings adjusted. It's the same old story that tightening the locknut seems to tighten the cone a little bit, and it's hard to gauge everything because of the dynohub. I've read that there's supposed to be a little bit of play, so I aimed for the smallest little wiggle to the hub when I rock the rim back and forth, that I could detect. It took many, many tries.

This has been my experience. The dynohub makes it a bit difficult to see where you are at (especially the innermost lock ring that adjusts the cone on the dyno side). How much resistance ought there to be when I rotate the assembly? I'm figuring that if it doesn't bind, and you can't feel too much tolerance, it should be OK. Getting to that adjustment and then tightening the locknut is tricky. The videos are very helpful.

gster 05-01-19 08:01 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20909034)
This has been my experience. The dynohub makes it a bit difficult to see where you are at (especially the innermost lock ring that adjusts the cone on the dyno side). How much resistance ought there to be when I rotate the assembly? I'm figuring that if it doesn't bind, and you can't feel too much tolerance, it should be OK. Getting to that adjustment and then tightening the locknut is tricky. The videos are very helpful.

Adjusting/tuning the hub off the bike is good and then a final adjust in place. Once installed, you'll find more play
due too the leverage of the wheel itself.
You should try to find a pair of these little cone wrenches...
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...635a92ee82.jpg
Once set, you lock the cone against the retaining nut and it's almost impossible to do
without at least one of these (or something similar/thin).
The hub is set when
-minimum play at hub
-little or no rotation of crank when back wheel spinning
-Spinning crank= too tight
Shift through all gears and observe.
Crank may spin briefly but should stop/settle down.
Also chain should not be tight either, it also needs a little play..
Sounds complicated but you'll get the hang of it.

Ged117 05-01-19 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20909132)
Adjusting/tuning the hub off the bike is good and then a final adjust in place. Once installed, you'll find more play
due too the leverage of the wheel itself.
You should try to find a pair of these little cone wrenches...
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...635a92ee82.jpg
Once set, you lock the cone against the retaining nut and it's almost impossible to do
without at least one of these (or something similar/thin).
The hub is set when
-minimum play at hub
-little or no rotation of crank when back wheel spinning
-Spinning crank= too tight
Shift through all gears and observe.
Crank may spin briefly but should stop/settle down.
Also chain should not be tight either, it also needs a little play..
Sounds complicated but you'll get the hang of it.

Thanks gster. I've got the Park double ended cone wrenches, which I seem to use every time I do something on a bike now. I'll dial it in this Friday night after I install the cranks. Brakes are going on too, and I'm picking up some new brake cables today for that purpose. Much easier job with the '79 Sports brakes I took off the abandoned bike.

gster 05-01-19 08:23 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20909170)
Thanks gster. I've got the Park double ended cone wrenches, which I seem to use every time I do something on a bike now. I'll dial it in this Friday night after I install the cranks. Brakes are going on too, and I'm picking up some new brake cables today for that purpose. Much easier job with the '79 Sports brakes I took off the abandoned bike.

Please post some photos of your progress.

BigChief 05-01-19 11:09 AM

I don't know about the Park cone wrenches, but most wrenches are too thick for SA hubs. Not a problem if you have a bench grinder or some other way to thin them down a bit, but those little SA wrenches are perfect. Especially if you have 2 of em and you use them do the final adjustment with the wheel mounted on the bike.

3speedslow 05-01-19 12:59 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20909478)
I don't know about the Park cone wrenches, but most wrenches are too thick for SA hubs. Not a problem if you have a bench grinder or some other way to thin them down a bit, but those little SA wrenches are perfect. Especially if you have 2 of em and you use them do the final adjustment with the wheel mounted on the bike.

Would anyone know the span of the jaws for those? Also the thickness of them? There is a dark corner of dead tools at the LBS I play at. Might be some buried in the pile.

julius rensch 05-01-19 02:48 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20909478)
I don't know about the Park cone wrenches, but most wrenches are too thick for SA hubs. Not a problem if you have a bench grinder or some other way to thin them down a bit, but those little SA wrenches are perfect. Especially if you have 2 of em and you use them do the final adjustment with the wheel mounted on the bike.

Thanks for the tip Big Chief.

Julius in Ohio


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