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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

52telecaster 11-06-21 04:07 PM


Originally Posted by ThermionicScott (Post 22298200)
My turn to get an unusually heavy VHS tape-sized box in the mail! :D

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...dfd0ac0664.jpg

Can't wait to try this out!

I got the cup remover too. Won't use it often but it sure works well.

thumpism 11-06-21 04:08 PM

Looks like a rod brake version of a 26 x 1 3/8 wheeled Raleigh for $100 in Brooklyn.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...71351567470417

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...84&oe=618BBC96

SirMike1983 11-06-21 05:24 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22298466)
Looks like a rod brake version of a 26 x 1 3/8 wheeled Raleigh for $100 in Brooklyn.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...71351567470417

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...84&oe=618BBC96

Yes - looks like a 1950s-era version of the "Dawn" series of bikes, which is the Sports-style frame and wheel set, but with rod brakes instead of cable brakes. For the person who wants something like a Sports but be just a little different.

thumpism 11-06-21 07:44 PM

Sturmey 5-speed on what might be a 23" ladies' frame for $200.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...35837557818814

https://scontent.fric1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...83&oe=61AB2BE4

vintagebicycle 11-07-21 07:09 AM

Way back in the day when I was just a kid working after school in a bike shop where I grew up the owner had a handful of tools for dealing with crank cotters. One was a huge Var pliers type tool, it was basically like a bolt cutter mechanism with an anvil and slot on the end to force the pins out. They worked well until you found one that was really stuck, then you either bent or broke the tool.
I used to take the broken tools home to repair for my own use. Many were just a matter of replacing the pivot pins, others were in far worse shape. They didn't break often but some really old bikes could be hard on the tools.
We saw a lot of French bikes, so the thing got used pretty much daily back then with the majority of the bikes which that shop sold having cottered cranks even into the late 70's or so.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...32bcc76369.jpg

Somewhere along the line the shop owner added a screw type press, this was around the time the shop started selling and working on Mopeds, I think the tool came from the Puch tool kit and it was made in Austria.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...93b55f9da7.jpg
These worked well but over time, the forcing screw would mushroom slowly jamming up as it spread further and further up the bolt until it would no longer open wide enough to get over the end of the cotter pin. We cut a few bolts and and made replacements but none worked as good as the original. The tool must have been cheap because the owner bought everyone their own one summer and told us to make it last for at least a year. I still have mine, although its now been through quite a few bolts. I think the bolts were threaded 14x1.50 mm. I finally got lucky a number of years ago and found an socket headed head bolt with the same threads that seems to work very well.
These tools saw more use on bikes than mopeds back then but they were a bit chunky, you had to hold the tool parallel to the chainring on many bikes to get on the pin. The sides were thinner than the front edge of the tool. I don't ever recall breaking one though. It would on occasion mushroom a pin over if not set just right or if the pin was really stuck. Some guys would put an impact gun to them, that usually ended up in either a bent pin or broken or stripped forcing bolt.

There was another tool which was a scissor action tool, in which the bolt was on the back side of the scissor action and tightening the bolt would close the opposite end. They worked but weren't nearly as strong as the other tools. They would on occasion fly off or the whole tool would twist leaving the ends miss-aligned, I think I only mess with that thing once or twice. It came from one of the lesser brand bike's tool sets, I seem to remember it saying only Czechoslovakia on the side of it. (It may have also been for one of the cheaper lines of mopeds that they sold too).

Another tool I remember from back then was homemade, at some point someone took an old, very large wrench, I think it was marked 1 7/8" and they drilled through on side of the open end through the other and threaded it much like the Bikesmith tool , but the basis for the tool was an open end wrench. They then ground the tips of the wrench flat.
It worked well, and never spread or stripped. I'm not sure who made it, I suspect it was something made by the owners father who had started the shop in the 30's.
The wrench it was made from was old, thinking back, it was likely from the 20's or 30's. The forcing screw was an old rear axle with a nut welded on the end. The opposite side was drilled straight through, not slotted.

Something like this:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2e4a1ac9b4.jpg

markk900 11-07-21 07:47 AM

There has been a lot of love in this thread lately for bikesmith's cotter press, and for the most part it is deserved. I have one and use it regularly (I also have the fixed cup tool which I have only used to try it out). The cotter press is well made and very simple, which is the mark of a good tool!

Having said that, you should be aware that it does have trouble with certain situations: for example, where the pin is closer to the chainwheel than the press allows (for example my CCM cottered crank); in this case you cannot align the press as recommended in line with the crank arm, you must go at an angle (and for the CCM that angle is almost 90 degrees), and even then the tips of the press are too deep to allow the press pin to self center correctly over the cotter. Still works fine but I can imagine a really tight pin being a problem. Also, in some cases (for example a Magistroni crank) because the head of the press screw is essentially the same width as the press itself and the edges of the hex head extend beyond the body, in tight situations it can be hard to turn the head as it can rub on the chainwheel (or in the case of the Magistroni on the spider and/or the chainring fixing bolts). Again angling the press is sometimes the answer but again it can cause misalignment of the press pin over the cotter.

I bring this up not to criticize the tool, as mine has seen regular use and it is a great addition to my toolbox. But I do want new or prospective owners to realize it is not a magic bullet for all situations.

rhenning 11-07-21 09:21 AM

Look up the "$16 cotter press" on this forum and you can look up how to make your own. I did several years and ago and am still using it. Roger

FBOATSB 11-07-21 09:44 AM

Yes, there are cranks out there that that tool will not fit, although in my very limited experience, I have not ran across one. Directly from the bikesmithdesigns website:

​​​​​Doesn't work on Williams B100
Or similar cranks where the chainring or spider is less than 7/16"(11mm) from the center of the cotter.

dirtman 11-07-21 10:01 AM

I starting to tear down a what I thought was a rather clean drop frame Sprite last night.
I had picked the bike up as part of a his/hers pair a little over a year ago, and since it was super clean looking I didn't part it out like I do most drop frame bikes.
Its also a rather tall frame model.
I've been riding the bike around the neighborhood here and there since I got it using it as a beater bike for short errands since it already had a pair of folding rear baskets attached to the Prestube rear rack, and a short front platform rack.
The bike rode great, but I really wanted to tear it down for a full service, knowing it likely had never been done.

The first thing I did was remove the wheels, cranks, and BB, and all looked as expected It had two somewhat recent tires, basically a wider version of the more common Kenda tires they sell now, and two minty clean rims and hubs. The same with the crankset. To my surprise, the first thing I noticed is that four of the balls on the right side of the bb were in pieces, broken into bits, yet the bike never gave me any signs something was that bad amiss.
I then pulled the fenders and forks, both fenders were in really nice shape, with only a few marks in the rear from where the rack was, likely from someone using bungee cord hooks.
I had laid the forks down on the bench without looking close, I tapped out the bearing cups and dropped both along with the bearings and cones into the parts washer.
As I was wiping down the forks I saw the biggest problem. The steer tube is bent in the middle, and not by a little either.
The bike had a super tall stem, over 12" long, about 8" of the stem was showing, and the rest well down into the forks. It as at the point where the stem ended where the steer tube is bent.
A much closer look at the frame, including gauging it side to side, front to back and making sure the head tube angle hadn't moved, showed no damage whatsoever to the frame. Yet the steer tube is bent nearly 1/2".
The bike had no slop in the headset, it didn't bind, and it didn't pull to either side. The bike also looked completely normal from a side view.
There is no bend to the forks and the bend is roughly 2" above the lower bearing race. Its sort of a bubble and bend.
What is stranger yet, its bent forward, not rearward.
I don't suppose the chances of finding a good green fork with an 8" steer tube is very likely, especially for a 26" wheel 1968 Sprite.
I have a few chrome replacement forks but I think I'll try to straighten it first. I'm thinking if I can find a sold bar to put into the tube to the point of the bend, with some heat, it should go back where it belongs. I've fixed worse, but when dealing with bent, bulged tubing, the odds are 50/50 at best of it coming out perfect again.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...679bded47c.jpg

Melon Baller 11-07-21 03:59 PM

Love this thread. I took my old Raleigh Sports out for a ride yesterday after letting it sit for all of summer. Forgot how comfortable that bike is.

nlerner 11-08-21 09:28 AM

I posted this one in another thread but seems appropriate to have it here, too: 1970s Raleigh Gran Sport with a new Sturmey-Archer 3-speed coaster-brake hub built into a 700c rim. Clearance for 32mm tires and fenders. Front SP dyno hub and B&M lamp. V-O rando rack, Wald basket, and Acorn bag. Running a 20t cog with a 42t chainring giving me 43", 57", 71" gears. I'll commute on it tomorrow.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9f75dc1f5a.jpg

Salubrious 11-08-21 10:52 AM


Originally Posted by markk900 (Post 22298929)
There has been a lot of love in this thread lately for bikesmith's cotter press, and for the most part it is deserved. I have one and use it regularly (I also have the fixed cup tool which I have only used to try it out). The cotter press is well made and very simple, which is the mark of a good tool!

Having said that, you should be aware that it does have trouble with certain situations: for example, where the pin is closer to the chainwheel than the press allows (for example my CCM cottered crank); in this case you cannot align the press as recommended in line with the crank arm, you must go at an angle (and for the CCM that angle is almost 90 degrees), and even then the tips of the press are too deep to allow the press pin to self center correctly over the cotter. Still works fine but I can imagine a really tight pin being a problem. Also, in some cases (for example a Magistroni crank) because the head of the press screw is essentially the same width as the press itself and the edges of the hex head extend beyond the body, in tight situations it can be hard to turn the head as it can rub on the chainwheel (or in the case of the Magistroni on the spider and/or the chainring fixing bolts). Again angling the press is sometimes the answer but again it can cause misalignment of the press pin over the cotter.

I bring this up not to criticize the tool, as mine has seen regular use and it is a great addition to my toolbox. But I do want new or prospective owners to realize it is not a magic bullet for all situations.

I was challenged years ago that the Bikesmith cotter press would not work on high end cranks. I have a Chater Lea crank on my Claud Butler; it works fine on that. That crank is quite light as cottered steel cranks go. I also have an alloy cottered crank that was made about 1950; no worries with that one either. I suspect that there are very few cranks on which this tool would not work. If there is one, it strikes me that an allen head bolt could sort that out.

Greg R 11-08-21 11:33 AM


if I can find a sold bar to put into the tube to the point of the bend, with some heat
Look into "heat straightening". I've done it on lengths of tubing and shafts with no mechanical force needed to get bends out. I'm not well versed in bicycle frame tubing materials and their response to localized heating but it's worth checking into. It requires an intense flame in a small area for a short time to get the color/heat needed

52telecaster 11-08-21 12:33 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 22299987)
I posted this one in another thread but seems appropriate to have it here, too: 1970s Raleigh Gran Sport with a new Sturmey-Archer 3-speed coaster-brake hub built into a 700c rim. Clearance for 32mm tires and fenders. Front SP dyno hub and B&M lamp. V-O rando rack, Wald basket, and Acorn bag. Running a 20t cog with a 42t chainring giving me 43", 57", 71" gears. I'll commute on it tomorrow.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9f75dc1f5a.jpg

43-57-76 is your gear inches I believe. Beautiful bike!

52telecaster 11-08-21 12:37 PM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 22300244)
43-57-76 is your gear inches I believe. Beautiful bike!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fc8f9339a9.jpg
Super course with aw.

nlerner 11-08-21 01:24 PM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 22300244)
43-57-76 is your gear inches I believe. Beautiful bike!

Doh! Calculation error on my part. For those following along at home, the hub ratios are .75%, 1.0%, 1.33%. My 42/20 setup gives me about 57 gear inches in 2nd gear according to this gear calculator.

dirtman 11-08-21 01:30 PM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22300153)
Look into "heat straightening". I've done it on lengths of tubing and shafts with no mechanical force needed to get bends out. I'm not well versed in bicycle frame tubing materials and their response to localized heating but it's worth checking into. It requires an intense flame in a small area for a short time to get the color/heat needed

I've straightened a few steer tubes in the past by a combination of gentle heat and the use of a solid bar worked into the tube to the point of the bend, in combination with a ship press and V block. I only heat it up enough so as I'm not trying to work 'cold' metal.
These aren't made from anything exotic, just mild carbon steel. If were anything really decent it would have likely broken not bent.
The odd part is that the fork is bent forward not rearward and the bend is completely above the bearing area or any usually point of stress.
Odder yet, it rode fine and looked fine before I took it apart. The few pics I took of it back when i first got it showed the fork blades inline with the heat tube and there's no bend or bubble in the frame. Even the seat post is still straight. (I've parted a few of these drop tube frames out where the first point of frame failure is the seat tube bending rearward where the top down tube attaches from either overloading or a rider who liked jumping off curbs and such.
The easy way out would be to just grab a new chrome fork off the shelf but then it will always look repaired unless I find some matching paint, which is unlikely after 50 years or so. The paint is decent but I'm sure its got a good bit of fade. If only it were black, I have a few good black forks.
The goal was to put a beater/loaner together but I may just grab another frame and fork and use the shiny bits elsewhere. The bad part is the other options are a brown frame with no matching fenders, and again, no matching fork, a black frame that likely has all its own parts, and a later yellow frameset one size smaller. Plus a half dozen other misc. not nearly as clean frames and mismatched forks hanging in the basement. None are as tall as this frame though, I'm 6ft 3in tall with a 36 inseam and this bike fit me well, despite being a drop tube model.
Right now my only drop tube bike I've got here ready to ride is a Peugeot UE18 Mixte with an SA AW hub, 27" rims, and fenders.

This is likely what the brochure calls a 21" frame DL70L or 'ladies' model but the steer tube is 8" long, giving it a very different stance compared to a similar 21" mens model

Greg R 11-08-21 01:44 PM


The odd part is that the fork is bent forward not rearward and the bend is completely above the bearing area or any usually point of stress
This implies to me a force was from the top and/or bottom of the frame rather than frontal. Rather than a front type of collision or impact driving the fork rearward, perhaps either a very weighty person in the past or a drop off of an edge or stair run causing a spread front of the wheel. Think of a car landing after a jump off a ramp

thumpism 11-09-21 12:40 AM

Seller has revised the FB Marketplace ad and included the location, Riner VA, a small town in SW Virginia near Radford and about four hours from me.

Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22298658)


ThermionicScott 11-09-21 12:57 AM

Amazing how easy things can be with the right tools... :thumb:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...04ec832935.jpg

dirtman 11-09-21 02:44 AM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22300323)
This implies to me a force was from the top and/or bottom of the frame rather than frontal. Rather than a front type of collision or impact driving the fork rearward, perhaps either a very weighty person in the past or a drop off of an edge or stair run causing a spread front of the wheel. Think of a car landing after a jump off a ramp

I was thinking the same thing but I would have expected that the fork blades would give before the steer tube bent so drastically. The fork is dead perfect below the bend, no deflection at all.
When I pulled the forks, the top nut was extremely hard to get loose, it felt like it was stripping off threads, but once free of the bearings is spun right off. However, it steered smoothly.when I rode it.
If I go to reinstall the fork now, its almost impossible to get back together due to the bend, as if the bend was being held straight to some degree by the bearings.
See how damaged the steer tube is, I would have expected it to have had major steering issues or binding, yet it steered fine.
I don't really know its history but it had a rear rack with folding rear baskets and a platform rack up front with a plastic milk crate zip tied to it. The box was padded and full of dog hair. So it likely didn't do much hard riding or work in its life.
Its matching men's model was also pretty clean but a smaller model with a bit more use on it.

The bend in the steer tube is where the stem wedge sat. The stem was super long, but it did have a Sir Raleigh mark on the top of the clamp.

As a kid, I used a an old men's model to deliver newspapers with for years, I had rigged it with a full size newsboys front basket, and the largest pair of saddle baskets I could find. plus a second 2x3ft basket on a hinge atop the rear saddle basket. The bike went out some days with over a hundred pounds or more of newspapers plus my then 250 or so lbs. The most common failure I had were tire blowouts and broken chain links. I'd go through a chain a year, sometimes two, and on occasion maybe a spoke or two. The one time I had a collision, it was with a fully loaded bike that slid into a wall in the snow, the forks didn't bend but the frame did. The frame buckled at both head tube lugs to the point the fender hit the frame. I ran that bike for a year without a front fender until I found another frame, when I swapped over all the parts the forks turned out to be slightly bent but it was the blades that were bent down low, not the steer tube. It had slid on its left side with all four baskets full about 100ft down a snow slick driveway into a stone wall. The front wheel was fine, the fender was fine till I had to spread the fender brace so I could ride it home. One pedal was also bent.
That bike did have a different style fork, it had a Birmingham style fork crown.
The bike was my back up bike then, I had bought it as a cheap used bike to have as a backup. A flat tire made me take that bike that day. It was a 'well used' bike to say the least before I found it.
Knowing how tough these bikes can be, I was really surprise to find this fork bent like this. It would have been different if the bike was rough or if it had visible damage.
Of course, I really didn't intend to fix it up, I was more or less going to use it for parts to make the men's model a better bike. But after riding it, I changed my mind.

My decision will depend on whether or not the fork can be saved, otherwise I'll likely use the parts to fix the other bike up, and pull another frameset out of the shed to build up a different loaner bike on a drop tube frame.

gster 11-09-21 04:58 AM


Originally Posted by Greg R (Post 22300323)
This implies to me a force was from the top and/or bottom of the frame rather than frontal. Rather than a front type of collision or impact driving the fork rearward, perhaps either a very weighty person in the past or a drop off of an edge or stair run causing a spread front of the wheel. Think of a car landing after a jump off a ramp

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...827f1cf98c.jpg

markk900 11-09-21 05:57 AM

Re bent steerer: seems to me that it would be impossible to bend the tube like that if it was *inside* the steerer part of the frame with all bearings in place, without showing other damage. So it is possible that this is not the original fork (someone swapped the original drop frame fork for a bent one), or could it possibly have left the factory that way? Someone managed to build it using some force, and as you say no slop or binding so it would easily pass QC later down the line. Last possibility is some form of twist through that long stem, but can't imagine enough force there to bend the fork tube without trashing the top bearing at least.

As far as bending it back: you have nothing really to lose and I suspect you need not make it perfect.

thumpism 11-09-21 07:46 AM

$50 for a men's 23" root beer Sports in OH. Looks like mine.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...19522208934359

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...c5&oe=618F1D3F

Greg R 11-09-21 12:23 PM

I have this hankering for more when I saw these. His and hers, what could be better. A pair from Raleigh Hills of all places:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4406f363f4.png
Portland, Oregon CL
https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/...404815125.html

are there Raleigh support groups? :)


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