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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

BigChief 08-04-17 08:19 AM

Ahh, I didn't notice the second rear fender stay. Raleigh added the second fender stay in 1966-1967. Looks like the frame is older than the rear fender as well as the pedals.

Ballenxj 08-04-17 12:55 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19767587)
Ahh, I didn't notice the second rear fender stay. Raleigh added the second fender stay in 1966-1967. Looks like the frame is older than the rear fender as well as the pedals.

Perhaps a rebuild with later NOS parts?

BigChief 08-04-17 03:44 PM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 19768338)
Perhaps a rebuild with later NOS parts?

That could be. Like the OP says, somebody fixed up this bike sometime around 1970. Who knows what new parts were used. A nice thing here is that it makes a good platform for a total restoration since there's no original finish to preserve. I'd like a project like this myself, especially an early 50s tall frame like this one. Daydream time...I would remove the forward fender stays, find old Raleigh pedals, a 50s AW hub and 50s shifter pieces, get a set of 50s decals, enamel paint, apply decals and clearcoat, and do the usual bearing maintenance. Ah, that felt good ;)

w1gfh 08-04-17 03:48 PM

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4403/...5d6e14ef_o.jpgIMAG1478 by w1gfh, on Flickr

Heard at the local CycleLoft: "Wow, that's an OLDIE!"

My old 20 x 1.75 back wheel has been popping spokes lately. They break right at the hub with a loud POP. This is the third one I've replaced in 2 months. Luckily the guys here at the LBS will grind a spoke to fit right on the spot. (I know, I should replace every spoke all at one time, but I'm lazy)

plympton 08-04-17 03:49 PM

90% of this bike is original. So far changes are pedals, paint, rear fender. I know nothing about tires but I'll betcha they're 1970 models. This bike has been kept in what you might think of as terrible conditions. 8 months a year for the last 16 years is has remained in the damp, frigid under structure of a western Maine log cabin. The rims shine bright, the frame is solid, all the rod brake components will shine rite up. The top [highest point] of the handlebar has those marks typical of flipping the bike on it's back. A very good winter project. Any suggestion on what parts you'd want nos?

BigChief 08-04-17 05:34 PM

I would buy all new grade 25 ball bearings and a can of marine grease. Even though the old ones might look OK, you can feel the difference all new ones make.
The front wheel uses 3/16"..I think, better double check, I'm getting old. When you put the wheel back on, remember to have the fixed cone on the right side of the bike. Adjustable cone on left...important. Bottom bracket uses 1/4". The bottom bracket fixed cup is a real bear to remove so don't bother. Just leave it in place and clean it out with a rag and a stick. The headset uses 5/32". Then you'll need tires, tubes and rim strips. Start soaking the cotters and spoke nipples in penetrating oil right away. It's best to press out the cotters because you may be able to reuse them. If they do bend, save yourself trouble and just get proper ones from Mark at : Bicycle Crank Cotters
Please post pictures as you go. Seeing someone elses project is the next best thing to having one myself.

plympton 08-05-17 06:45 AM

In my time every kid grew up as a back yard mechanic. So, although I had some basic skills, restoring a 1973 John Deere was challenging and educational. Tractor restoration has it's own language. Then I restored a 1956 Atlas Royal Outboard, same thing learned a new language. I can see from your messages that I have a lot to learn here. I begin a restoration by finding a parts diagram. I blow the diagram up large, maybe 16x24, and laminate it. If each section has it's own diagram I do the same thing for each. As the bike comes apart each piece is placed over it's corresponding place on the diagram. I have found a parts diagram for a model 12 etal and the parts catalog BigChief has given me the link to and of course I have Google. Can't wait to find a serial number though.

SirMike1983 08-05-17 08:43 AM

You have a good project. I've seen many old utility bikes, especially three-speed type bikes. In my experience, the English bikes tend to have the best rust resistance of those I've come across. Conditions are harsh in western Maine. Most of western New England would qualify as pretty tough, but northern Vermont/New Hampshire, and much of inland Maine, really are a step worse than where I'm originally from, just south of the Berkshires.

That's not to say they are rust-proof, but they tend to turn up a notch better than the other utility bikes I've seen subjected to similar conditions.

BigChief 08-05-17 12:08 PM

Yes, they did have good quality chrome back then. Schwinns too.
I figure the first thing on your project is to strip down the frame for prep and painting. That will mean taking off the crank. I thought I'd find a good youtube vid for you. Well...
this first guy might be annoying, but his information is good.

This second video shows a whole BB rebuild but. He's hammering on the cotter with a hammer and I'm thinking NO NO NO.
Then, he removes the fixed cup using a friction method which is not necessary. Just leave it in place. This bike has a plastic bearing cage. Yours predates the bad idea phase Raleigh went through in the 70s so it will have 11 loose 1/4" balls on each side instead.

treebound 08-05-17 03:55 PM

Finally got that tough cotter out with a little help from a neighbor and a section of bike frame tubing used as a breaker bar on the vice handle.
https://i.imgur.com/ryyrwGV.jpg

plympton 08-05-17 07:30 PM

Birthday gift coming. 65 lbs bike repair stand.

BigChief 08-06-17 05:15 AM


Originally Posted by treebound (Post 19770453)
Finally got that tough cotter out with a little help from a neighbor and a section of bike frame tubing used as a breaker bar on the vice handle.

I was thinking about this. I haven't had a stuck cotter yet, but I thought if I do, I might try more press power rather than drilling. Good work!

plympton 08-06-17 05:58 AM

next question. When it comes time should i make this a three speed or leave it as is? and. What exactly will the serial number tell me? is it just the production run of the frame? Will the number tell me the model and other details?

gna 08-06-17 07:37 AM

Sadly, the serial numbers don't tell you much. See Raleigh Serial Numbers & Charts

Raleigh just stamped numbers on them, but there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason.

Velocivixen 08-06-17 08:14 AM

@w1gfh - like your R20. What year is it? I presume you used zip ties to attatch that basket. Nice. I'd love to get a basket that size & do that.

At this point I've got 4 Raleigh Twentys and green is my favorite color.

w1gfh 08-06-17 08:45 AM

R20 spokes
 

Originally Posted by Velocivixen (Post 19771472)
@w1gfh - like your R20. What year is it? I presume you used zip ties to attatch that basket. Nice. I'd love to get a basket that size & do that.

At this point I've got 4 Raleigh Twentys and green is my favorite color.

1970...and yes zip ties hold any metal basket. Look in kitchen dept. of stores for small countertop chrome baskets.

BigChief 08-06-17 10:38 AM


Originally Posted by plympton (Post 19771274)
next question. When it comes time should i make this a three speed or leave it as is? and. What exactly will the serial number tell me? is it just the production run of the frame? Will the number tell me the model and other details?

Me, I'd get a whole other 3 speed wheel and leave the original aside. Fortunately, Raleigh used this same "Raleigh Design" rim for their Sports models all the way to the end. It's a dual purpose rim that can work with either rod or cable brakes. A 3 speed hub always came as standard or as an option on these bikes, so going 3 speed is perfectly legit. The 1948 catalog for the US shows the Dawn with a hockey stick chain guard and 3 speed as an option while the Dawn Tourist the enclosed chain guard and offers the 3 speed hub as standard. But, you never can tell with Raleigh. So many variations, not many hard and fast rules.

http://www.jaysmarine.com/1948raleighcat_us_10_lg.jpg


http://www.jaysmarine.com/1948raleighcat_us_11_lg.jpg

plympton 08-06-17 03:14 PM

Yes I agree, Unless things change, I will be building a Dawn Tourist. Let's say for agrument sake that this bike is a 1956. Is the 3 speed hub for a 1956 Dawn Tourist specific? If a found an old "sport" model Raleigh say a 1970 is it just a matter of substituting the wheel? No one would know that they weren't 1956 wheels?

3speedslow 08-06-17 03:22 PM

Unless they knew what the hubs looked like. Starting in the early 70's, they put stripes around the hub. But I believe the main idea here should be function over form. Quite often you can slide the insides of a better working AW into an older AW hub.

BigChief 08-06-17 06:02 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19772254)
Unless they knew what the hubs looked like. Starting in the early 70's, they put stripes around the hub. But I believe the main idea here should be function over form. Quite often you can slide the insides of a better working AW into an older AW hub.

That's right. Forgot about that. In the 70s Sturmey Archer added ribs to the hub shell. I would want to avoid those. Too obvious. I would want one with the plain hub shell. Hub shells do have a small date stamp, but a 1960s hub would be fine in my book. Do make sure the wheel has the Raleigh pattern rim. Sometimes nick named Westrick. Only Raleigh badged bikes came with them. All the other Raleigh made brands like Robin Hood have plain Endrick rims.

3speedslow 08-06-17 08:03 PM

My thing is to find a 40 hole AW hub or shell that I can use to build up a 27" wheel for my Rudge 3 speed dropbar rapide. I already have the Dunlop special lightweight rims.

plympton 08-07-17 05:57 AM

I was thinking of finding a yard sale bike for parts. I have seen two older Raleighs but they were too good to part out. People who know bikes want $100+ for old school Raleighs. Yard sale people want 25 - 50.

plympton 08-07-17 06:37 AM

For instance. I see a 1969 lady's Raleigh sport for $50 half hour away from me.

BigChief 08-07-17 06:58 AM


Originally Posted by plympton (Post 19773341)
I was thinking of finding a yard sale bike for parts. I have seen two older Raleighs but they were too good to part out. People who know bikes want $100+ for old school Raleighs. Yard sale people want 25 - 50.

Yes, things have changed a lot since I started this hobby. The internet has made finding things much easier, but far, far more expensive. On the good side, your project is an exceptionally good bike. Rare and from the high point of bicycle production in Nottingham. A tall frame too! Even more rare. True, to do this right will cost some money, but you'll end up with a whale of a nice restoration.
edit:
this has been posted on this thread a bunch of times, but in case you missed it, here it is again. I think you will enjoy it since your bike is from nearly this same time.

Salubrious 08-07-17 11:43 AM


Originally Posted by plympton (Post 19771274)
next question. When it comes time should i make this a three speed or leave it as is? and. What exactly will the serial number tell me? is it just the production run of the frame? Will the number tell me the model and other details?

The hub tells the date. The date is often marked on front hubs too. A 1950s hub seems to have better bearing finish than the later decades.


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19772254)
Unless they knew what the hubs looked like. Starting in the early 70's, they put stripes around the hub. But I believe the main idea here should be function over form. Quite often you can slide the insides of a better working AW into an older AW hub.

Sometime in 1972 they went from plain hubs to the striped ones. Its also the year they went from a nine-point crank to the 6-point crank.


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