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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

markk900 06-20-19 03:59 PM

I had made a press out of a large C clamp and a socket that worked pretty well for “normal”
situations; I bought a bikesmith press and it worked “better” - ie more easily and with less chance of messing up - but it was not night and day better; it also has trouble with slim cranks as it’s quite a substantial tool.

nlerner 06-20-19 05:06 PM

Good price on a matching set of mid-70s Sports in southeastern MA:

https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/bi...916156615.html

BocaJr 06-20-19 06:04 PM


Originally Posted by dweenk (Post 20988279)
Some where on this forum there are instructions for making a cotter press from a Harbor Freight chain breaker. I made one a few years ago and have been successful with all of the extractions except one where the crank profile was so slim that there was not enough space to align with the pin.

Thanks for the info, found it here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ter-press.html

gster 06-20-19 08:41 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20987717)
My feeble take: torquing on the crankside makes those a little more harder to drive out. Mine are of the nonR-nut variety. They were also driven in quite deep. The NDS cotter slide right out so I think it had something to do with the placement or torque on the pin. BTW, the tool used was the old Park cotter one and both sides had 2 days of soaking before the operation.

I so wanted to find a sock!

The part number on the crank spindle facing up was just PURE luck!

Better luck next time on the sock.
They're like the Willy Wonka chocolate bars.

gster 06-20-19 08:44 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20987563)
I've given some thought to this issue, but I still have more questions than answers. Even in this case, you can see from the picture that unlike aluminum stems and seat posts in steel frames, corrosion wasn't the cause. Even in the LBS where I worked, mechanics in the day would just hammer cotters in. For a long time, I guessed stuck cotters were just the result of being hammered in too hard. But now I wondering if perhaps the alloy they are made from is involved somehow. I've removed many cotters over the years. Probably not enough to be of any real statistical value, but enough to get an impression. I too have noticed that cotters from bikes from the 50s seem to pop out without much fuss and the only time I've had to resort to plan B was on later models. I have also noticed that the alloy of the old cotters...and Bike Smith cotters as well... looks different than more modern cotters. There's no finish on them. They're not very hard and are highly rust resistant. Just a thought.

Good notes.
I suspect the older cotters had some soft lead in them...

BigChief 06-21-19 04:22 AM

I suppose it will remain a mystery. It is an interesting question of why people are sometimes forced into extreme measures to remove cotters when there doesn't seem to be any rusting involved and other times cotters that hold the crank arm on just as securely press out easily. The alloy may be a factor, maybe not, but knowing what I do about Raleighs, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the bean counters at Nottingham in the 70s could have saved 2 cents by using cheaper cotters, they would have done it.

gster 06-21-19 04:34 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20989303)
I suppose it will remain a mystery. It is an interesting question of why people are sometimes forced into extreme measures to remove cotters when there doesn't seem to be any rusting involved and other times cotters that hold the crank arm on just as securely press out easily. The alloy may be a factor, maybe not, but knowing what I do about Raleighs, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the bean counters at Nottingham in the 70s could have saved 2 cents by using cheaper cotters, they would have done it.

Aye Laddie.
A penny saved is a penny earned.

Alloyboy 06-21-19 06:47 AM


Originally Posted by Johno59 (Post 20987528)
Slacken off the nut a few turns, offer up the frame horizontal and place in the vice. Place one jaw of the vice against the crank opposite the stuck pin, place a socket over the pin top so it clears the pin and presses on the crank body. Place the other jaw directly on the slackened cotter pin nut opposite and press the pin out.

We must be twins, sometimes a hammer on the slackened nut and another below to take the force. Also a 1/2 inch nut with the hammer below fits over the head of the cotter nicely.

Road Fan 06-21-19 07:30 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20986416)
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0da3fd931.jpeg

Little oil, drill, punch and repeat.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a11290055.jpeg

All nice and clean!
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b3ac749a2.jpeg

Still ready to do the job after 40 years!
Success! Fighting all the way but the cotter finally came out. All BB parts shiny and free of wear. I found chunks of old grease and a petrified wasp but no sock. The Teflon spray was helping it but new grease is what it needs.

The drill bit stayed mostly in the pin but towards the bottom drifted out into the crank. I can see a little divot out of the wall. Both openings are still round. I will be getting new pins, most likely from Mark.

I had to use a similar method of last resort on my Rudge. The Mark press took out the non-drive cotter instantly, like butter. I don't know how they were doing things in 1952! The drive-side was rather narrow and the Mark press did not squarely hit the threaded end, so it bent. I pushed it back up straight to try hammering with a drift, but that just collapsed the stud and it broke off. I then tried driving it with a ¼ punch, which only deformed and expanded the end, tightening the fit - made it worse. I then took a pin punch, located a drilling point and started with a pilot drilling. Progressively going through my drills, I cut out the inside of the cotter until I felt I could not control the cutting so as to protect the spindle and the chainset. But still no budging of the pin!

I decided the only hope now was to cut out the cotter from the inside - round files. Thin the remaining cotter wall until it was "very" thin, then re-attach NDS arm temporarily and use that leverage to crush the thin-wall cotter. I tried several round mill bastard files, with not much success. What REALLY worked were the various sizes of chain-saw sharpening files - they're also cheap! It still took maybe 10 hours of filing to thin it down, but the strategy worked!

I'm quite disgusted with the whole cotter-removal adventure and intend to ultimately rebuild the Rudge with a TA spindle in the original cups and a vintage TA 5-pin. But I think my first build will be to re-use the original chainset, spindle, and wheels. I now have a lot of hot-rodding parts (alloy rims, an alloy FM, the TA chainset parts, English threaded Berthet pedals), but I'm gonna ride it before I take on the bigger jobs.

One of the bigger jobs is to get a granny capability. The stumbling block is to maintain chain tension. Chain alignment may be an issue as well. It is theoretically possible to shim the Raleigh BB cups to jink a TA double chainset to the right, but I have no clue if such shims (properly fitting) are available. this relationship is generally (I assume) the responsibility of the bike manufacturer, and we owner/tinkerers are left with the "simple" task of managing chainline and chain selection.

I may go to a rear derailleur of the era. There are a few out there designed for owner installation, but I'm not sure I see yet if a claw under the wheel attachment bolt can well-secure a rear mech and allow the indicator window to be used.

So my first shot is going to be to clean out all of the bearings (the original AW seems to be in pretty decent shape), dabble in touching up some of the rust, and see how she pedals!

paulb_in_bkln 06-21-19 09:46 AM


Originally Posted by BocaJr (Post 20988775)
Thanks for the info, found it here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ter-press.html

Get my drill press out.... Uhhhh

Bomarc 06-21-19 02:23 PM


Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln (Post 20989701)
Get my drill press out.... Uhhhh

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a33ae5ff6.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...106108f61.jpeg

The modified Harbor Freight chain breaker does work. I used it to remove and replace the existing cotters on 3 bikes so far. A worthwhile addition is a brass screw inserted into the end of the press to prevent scoring marks on the ends of the cotters.

BigChief 06-21-19 04:28 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20989451)
I had to use a similar method of last resort on my Rudge. The Mark press took out the non-drive cotter instantly, like butter. I don't know how they were doing things in 1952! The drive-side was rather narrow and the Mark press did not squarely hit the threaded end, so it bent. I pushed it back up straight to try hammering with a drift, but that just collapsed the stud and it broke off. I then tried driving it with a ¼ punch, which only deformed and expanded the end, tightening the fit - made it worse. I then took a pin punch, located a drilling point and started with a pilot drilling. Progressively going through my drills, I cut out the inside of the cotter until I felt I could not control the cutting so as to protect the spindle and the chainset. But still no budging of the pin!

I decided the only hope now was to cut out the cotter from the inside - round files. Thin the remaining cotter wall until it was "very" thin, then re-attach NDS arm temporarily and use that leverage to crush the thin-wall cotter. I tried several round mill bastard files, with not much success. What REALLY worked were the various sizes of chain-saw sharpening files - they're also cheap! It still took maybe 10 hours of filing to thin it down, but the strategy worked!

I'm quite disgusted with the whole cotter-removal adventure and intend to ultimately rebuild the Rudge with a TA spindle in the original cups and a vintage TA 5-pin. But I think my first build will be to re-use the original chainset, spindle, and wheels. I now have a lot of hot-rodding parts (alloy rims, an alloy FM, the TA chainset parts, English threaded Berthet pedals), but I'm gonna ride it before I take on the bigger jobs.

One of the bigger jobs is to get a granny capability. The stumbling block is to maintain chain tension. Chain alignment may be an issue as well. It is theoretically possible to shim the Raleigh BB cups to jink a TA double chainset to the right, but I have no clue if such shims (properly fitting) are available. this relationship is generally (I assume) the responsibility of the bike manufacturer, and we owner/tinkerers are left with the "simple" task of managing chainline and chain selection.

I may go to a rear derailleur of the era. There are a few out there designed for owner installation, but I'm not sure I see yet if a claw under the wheel attachment bolt can well-secure a rear mech and allow the indicator window to be used.

So my first shot is going to be to clean out all of the bearings (the original AW seems to be in pretty decent shape), dabble in touching up some of the rust, and see how she pedals!

Well, if you're looking for a good home for that Ulster Hand crank....

Road Fan 06-22-19 06:06 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20990416)
Well, if you're looking for a good home for that Ulster Hand crank....

It's not the Red Hand of Ulster, sorry! The bike is a 1952 Rudge Aero Special, clone of the Raleigh Super Lenton of the same year. Raleigh used a more plain chainset on the Raleigh, Rudge, and Humber siblings. Previous years used chainsets with brand insignia, but not in 1952 on the 27, 127, and 327. The Rudge is Model 127.

And my plan is to build initially with the original parts.https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...25784ff122.jpg
Before teardown.

gster 06-22-19 06:10 AM

Good News
The Toronto Vintage Bicycle Show has been approved by the City!
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...44076750b7.png
All Systems are Go!

gster 06-22-19 06:13 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20990985)
It's not the Red Hand of Ulster, sorry! The bike is a 1952 Rudge Aero Special, clone of the Raleigh Super Lenton of the same year. Raleigh used a more plain chainset on the Raleigh, Rudge, and Humber siblings. Previous years used chainsets with brand insignia, but not in 1952 on the 27, 127, and 327. The Rudge is Model 127.

And my plan is to build initially with the original parts.https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...25784ff122.jpg
Before teardown.

That's a handsome machine.

gster 06-22-19 06:35 AM

OT
A friend of mine is looking for another bike.
She already has a nice 3 speed Hercules that I
gave her as a gift last year.
This German Hercules Estrella is for sale up the street.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...363cc45597.jpg
It's a good lookin' bike but I don't know
much about them.

BigChief 06-22-19 09:55 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20990994)
That's a handsome machine.

Sure is. These bikes have always been sort of a Grail to me. In all my years of bike hunting, I have yet to find a neglected club machine that needed rescue. I still have time left in me. Maybe it will come along. This story does put a hole in my older cotters theory. Still, I think the answer to removing a cotter once it bends is to center punch, drill down until you have a centered counter sink, support the crank and drive with a punch. I think supporting the crank is crucial.

Road Fan 06-22-19 01:11 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20991225)
Sure is. These bikes have always been sort of a Grail to me. In all my years of bike hunting, I have yet to find a neglected club machine that needed rescue. I still have time left in me. Maybe it will come along. This story does put a hole in my older cotters theory. Still, I think the answer to removing a cotter once it bends is to center punch, drill down until you have a centered counter sink, support the crank and drive with a punch. I think supporting the crank is crucial.

It's not the supporting or punching part, it's the hammer part - anxiety about bashing the frame!!

jackbombay 06-22-19 03:30 PM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 20991443)
It's not the supporting or punching part, it's the hammer part - anxiety about bashing the frame!!

Know any blue collar guys that swing a hammer regularly? Have them do it!

I've swung hammers for so long that hitting the frame wouldn't be the slightest concern to me, same should be true of anyone doing it for a decade or more.

Road Fan 06-22-19 05:09 PM


Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 20991571)
Know any blue collar guys that swing a hammer regularly? Have them do it!

I've swung hammers for so long that hitting the frame wouldn't be the slightest concern to me, same should be true of anyone doing it for a decade or more.

Great! I don't use them very much. Besides, now the cotters are out.

Alloyboy 06-22-19 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 20991571)
Know any blue collar guys that swing a hammer regularly? Have them do it!

I've swung hammers for so long that hitting the frame wouldn't be the slightest concern to me, same should be true of anyone doing it for a decade or more.

I was a striker in the blacksmith shop at one time.
"When I nod my head hit it."
I went through three blacksmiths before they gave me a job in the welding shop. Giggle.

3speedslow 06-22-19 05:36 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20988987)
Better luck next time on the sock.
They're like the Willy Wonka chocolate bars.

RIP Gene Wilder!

3speedslow 06-22-19 05:46 PM

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...435616460.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f540650eb.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...33c21c749.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...99fc1316c.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...94789b06b.jpeg
First peek. Fresh off the truck. The guy got it from his aunt, didn’t want it. I went to look at it at an asked price of 50. After explaining about English 3 speeds, Phillips history and particulars to watch out for he stops me and says i’m The man for this bike. I made him take 20.

1967 8. Phillips Summer of Love, baby!

3speedslow 06-22-19 05:54 PM

Rust has started to take hold but not too much on most surfaces. The worse area is on the handle bars and test removal with brass brush gets most of it gone. I’m confident the chrome will come out shiny. The paint is solid but rough. Seems to have bumps all over it. Polish and wax will see.

Tires hold air, gears shift through all 3 and the crank turns freely. Brakes grab hard. It’s all only gonna get better as the love goes back into this bike...Groovy man!

Alloyboy 06-22-19 05:55 PM

I like the chrome on the fork crown. Fenders and bell and carrier. Twenty bucks! You are my kind of shopper.

usarnie1 06-22-19 06:06 PM

Meet the twins
 
I thought I would show you my twin 1953 Hercules bikes together. One is a Hercules Tourist and the other is a Hercules Royal Prince. Both have been rejuvenated by me. Both have new transfer stickers on their chainguard. It is dificult to say which one is my favorite. Usually, my favorite is the bike I am currently working on! Both of these bikes are the Queen Elizabeth II Coronation Celebration Bikes. The ivory spikes, 2 Falcons in flight and Gold scripted Hercules were only used on the 1953 QEII bikes. In the USA these bikes are quite rare. In Canada they were made under the Eaton lable.

I am waiting for a Hercules Windsor QEII bike, that I purchased in Road Island, to arrive. For this bike I will need to find a set of Hercules brakes and a Hercules B type 3 hub. If anyone reading this post has either or both, please contact me with photos and a price.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7ddf34ac19.jpg

3speedslow 06-22-19 06:14 PM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20991010)
OT
A friend of mine is looking for another bike.
She already has a nice 3 speed Hercules that I
gave her as a gift last year.
This German Hercules Estrella is for sale up the street.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...363cc45597.jpg
It's a good lookin' bike but I don't know
much about them.

I love the little metal tool boxes that come with the German Hercules. You can see it above the rear brake. I have one but have never found the bike to use it on. One day...

gster 06-22-19 06:16 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20991225)
Sure is. These bikes have always been sort of a Grail to me. In all my years of bike hunting, I have yet to find a neglected club machine that needed rescue. I still have time left in me. Maybe it will come along. This story does put a hole in my older cotters theory. Still, I think the answer to removing a cotter once it bends is to center punch, drill down until you have a centered counter sink, support the crank and drive with a punch. I think supporting the crank is crucial.

Q.
How do you define a club bike?
Is it the drop bars?
The geometry on this English/Canadian mystery
bike is interesting.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...37d94fe4b3.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f183d8cd23.jpg
The seat tube is quite relaxed as compared to a roadster and the top tube is not parallel to the ground.
It drops by about 3/4" from front to back.
BB is Bayley Wiless and the front forks are stamped Tru-Wel Made in England.
I suspect that this was a special, somewhat custom bike, for someone back in 1954.

3speedslow 06-22-19 06:36 PM


Originally Posted by Alloyboy (Post 20991753)
I like the chrome on the fork crown. Fenders and bell and carrier. Twenty bucks! You are my kind of shopper.

The sturdy chrome bell is worth the 20 alone IMO. It will clean up too quite well. The top image is of a muscular young man twin paddling a kayak of sorts. It has a nice ring which will get more pronounced when I get some lube inside. The carrier will be discarded as I do not like these models too much.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0d0c3e838.jpeg

Road Fan 06-22-19 06:45 PM

gster, Go to a local cheaper tool store (Canadian Tyre?) and buy a cheap roofing angle finder - should be about $10. My Rudge angles are 71 deg seat tube and 73 deg head tube, and the Raleigh/Rudge original sales documents say the same thing. It's really not hard to measure them well enough. Relaxed seat tubes were a feature of the times, on roadsters and sport bikes as well as Clubman types. I think I read spec printed 15 years earlier, and there were 67 degree seat tubes. Yours looks steeper than I think mine is.

I use "Club" or "Clubman" the way Raleigh used it and in turn Peter Kohler used it in his blogs on British bikes of the middle-ish 20th Century. There were actual models, really numerous models and variants called "Clubman." Raleigh's patter said they are designed for the discerning customer like club members and other aspirational cyclists who wanted a bicycle with the potential for higher performance than the norm. Sounds to me like the difference between a Peugeot PX-10 and a Peugeot UO-8, no? The 1970's and later trend in USA was for light weight, a lively feel, comfort and stability, long distance comfort, and excellent durability. It sounds like what these Raleighs and other brands offered in the late '40s and '50s (and yes, they had drop bars). And I think the earlier higher end road bikes from Raleigh in the early '60s, like the wonderful gold-colored Grand Prix of the early '60s, were a design evolution from the earlier Club-styles, like the Raleigh Super Lenton (sibling to my Rudge). The Raleigh Competition and International from the 1969-ish time frames were also very similar the geometry of my Rudge. Both models were later transitioned to more upright geometries.

Recall Peter Weigle converted a few Raleigh Comp's of that era into his first 650b bikes. The trail figures for my Rudge calculate out to about 39 mm for the 27 x 1 ¼ for my Rudge, and will probably be in the mid-30s with 650 x 42b tires. But once you have measured your angles and made a best-possible measurement of fork offset and wheel diameter, you can calculate your own trail.

What are the names on your mystery bike?

Link:
The Raleigh Lentons: 1948-1961 - ON THE DROPS



https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-raleigh-lentons-1948-1960.htmlNumerous articles on that blog.


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