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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

oldveloman 07-26-21 02:35 AM


Originally Posted by vintagebicycle (Post 22157777)
The 36 spoke holes says later model but the serrated sides makes me think early 70's.

36 holes were common on non-English bicycles long before the seventies. Luckily, I have a 1951, 36 spoke AW hub for use in my '53 Raleigh Sports as I want to replace the very rusty rims with new ones and 40 spoke rims are just not available.
I know, not original, but pretty close... :)

Peter

dirtman 07-26-21 03:24 AM

I had a Dawes with Supraseal branded rims in 27" years ago, they looked like the Dunlop Endrick wheels that used to come on some Raleigh bikes with smooth sides. Mine were 36/36.
I agree, the serrated sides look older but some French bikes kept the serrated rims till the very late 70's or maybe even into the 80's. I have a late 70's Peugeot Mixte with serrated side Rigida Chrolux rims. It was bought new as it sits in late 1978 at a local bike shop.

Raleigh and Schwinn weren't the only brands to use a 'Westrick' pattern rim, I've had a few 60's and 70's model German and Austrian bikes with the same or similar pattern and you can find various steel replacement wheels in 650B on various European sites.
I suppose there are many more out there, maybe even some replacement brand wheels.

cudak888 07-26-21 06:40 AM


Originally Posted by vintagebicycle (Post 22157777)
The 36 spoke holes says later model but the serrated sides makes me think early 70's.

That'd line up with Raleigh's transition to 36 holes in 1973.

It's probably fair to say these are the aftermarket replacement EA3's of their day.

-Kurt

SirMike1983 07-26-21 07:48 AM

The Supraseal is for a 36/36 Raleigh Sports from 1973 onward. They're good rims, and I like the serrated brake track. They take 590mm tires, which gives you at least some choice in tires. I still ride a set of these on one my 1970s Raleighs.

The Schwinn S5 is the Schwinn copy of the Raleigh pattern rim. They started about 1961 or so. They are very common on 1960s Schwinn 3-speeds. The point of the Raleigh pattern rim is to work with cable caliper brakes and inside-running rod brakes. Schwinn appears to have copied this, though I've never seen a Schwinn use rod brakes. The Schwinn rims are also sometimes called "tubular" because they took a tubular shaped piece of metal and stamped it to the cross-section shape of the rim, then bent the stamping and welded the two ends together to make a hoop. The slag was then removed and ground down. With the S5 rims, be careful to check the weld before building into a wheel. On some of the rims, there's a rough area in the brake track (and sometimes an inherent wobble) where the two ends were welded together. Also check the inside of the rim for sharp areas at the weld. Some of these rims are fine, and on some, they didn't clean the weld area up enough. The 597mm bead seat instead of the 590mm limits your tire choices.

The New Departure A was an early 20th century coaster brake hub, from well before WWII. It usually had an hourglass shaped hub shell, slender brake arm with a set screw, and it used a knurled spacer to link the reaction arm and the hub. The parts for these are relatively valuable if in good shape. They are unusual to find today, but not ultra-rare. The A was common on 1910s-20s era bikes, though appeared probably as far back as 1903. Save as many parts and whatever else came with that stuff. The hubs were made into the late 1920s.

The Corbin hub was probably a turn of the 20th century hub coaster brake hub, though Corbin made several models from the 1900s, with the Model 8 running into the 1920s. Again, this is all pre-WWII stuff, which is unusual today. These usually turn up on 1900s-1910s era bikes. Same as the Model A - save as much as you can find of this stuff. It's really old, and really hard to find today.

Good finds for what you paid.

3speedslow 07-26-21 09:56 AM

Chock full of good info there Sir Mike!

thumpism 07-26-21 05:15 PM

Ladies' Tourist for cheap in TN.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...57369854911678

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...30&oe=612456E3

cudak888 07-26-21 08:01 PM


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22158781)
Ladies' Tourist for cheap in TN.

Fair price and good shape - if the rear rim wasn't wrecked.

-Kurt

dirtman 07-27-21 10:20 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22157968)
The Supraseal is for a 36/36 Raleigh Sports from 1973 onward. They're good rims, and I like the serrated brake track. They take 590mm tires, which gives you at least some choice in tires. I still ride a set of these on one my 1970s Raleighs.

The Schwinn S5 is the Schwinn copy of the Raleigh pattern rim. They started about 1961 or so. They are very common on 1960s Schwinn 3-speeds. The point of the Raleigh pattern rim is to work with cable caliper brakes and inside-running rod brakes. Schwinn appears to have copied this, though I've never seen a Schwinn use rod brakes. The Schwinn rims are also sometimes called "tubular" because they took a tubular shaped piece of metal and stamped it to the cross-section shape of the rim, then bent the stamping and welded the two ends together to make a hoop. The slag was then removed and ground down. With the S5 rims, be careful to check the weld before building into a wheel. On some of the rims, there's a rough area in the brake track (and sometimes an inherent wobble) where the two ends were welded together. Also check the inside of the rim for sharp areas at the weld. Some of these rims are fine, and on some, they didn't clean the weld area up enough. The 597mm bead seat instead of the 590mm limits your tire choices.

The New Departure A was an early 20th century coaster brake hub, from well before WWII. It usually had an hourglass shaped hub shell, slender brake arm with a set screw, and it used a knurled spacer to link the reaction arm and the hub. The parts for these are relatively valuable if in good shape. They are unusual to find today, but not ultra-rare. The A was common on 1910s-20s era bikes, though appeared probably as far back as 1903. Save as many parts and whatever else came with that stuff. The hubs were made into the late 1920s.

The Corbin hub was probably a turn of the 20th century hub coaster brake hub, though Corbin made several models from the 1900s, with the Model 8 running into the 1920s. Again, this is all pre-WWII stuff, which is unusual today. These usually turn up on 1900s-1910s era bikes. Same as the Model A - save as much as you can find of this stuff. It's really old, and really hard to find today.

Good finds for what you paid.

The lot of ND model A parts is roughly 20 lbs or so of internals, all look to be in decent shape, some look new.
I have some model A hubs from a cleanout i did several months ago, I opened those up and it looks like someone has gone through them completely. One was attached to a badly rotted wood rim.

The Corbin hubs look very similar to the ND hubs.

I have two later Raleigh Sports here, going by the rear hub dates, one is a 2/1977, the other a 11/1978, both have 36/36 spoked Raleigh pattern rims branded Sturmey Archer. Both came from different sources years apart.
I also have one with a hub dated 3/80, that has 36h Raleigh pattern rims but also stamped Sturmey Archer. I have a Raleigh LTD with 32/40h Endrick rims with a rear hub dated 4/78. I've known this bike since it was new, he bought it from a bike shop where I used to work back then.

So were the Supraseal rims English? if so there's no mention of it as there is on the SA and Dunlop rims. I was wondering if maybe they were from the Canadian built bikes or even Holland? I don't think I've ever had a Canadian built Raleigh here before though. I've seen bikes from England, Holland, Taiwan, and Malaysia.
Did only the bikes with Westrick style rims go to 36 spoke wheels?

SirMike1983 07-27-21 12:44 PM

There is some cross-over between the New Departure and Corbin hubs in terms of technology, though how much so depends on the model and year for what you have. It's all old, good stuff to have at this point anyway. If you're into pre-1930 American bikes, you'll want those parts. If not, they should be sellable to collectors. There is a small, but very devoted market to the pre-1933 stuff from back when the bikes had the 28 inch wood rims and the old-style frames. Corbin was at New Britain, Conn. originally, while New Departure had a long-running plant in Bristol, Conn, only a few miles apart. New Departure started as a bell maker, but eventually branched out into other things. The big thing they did were bearings and car parts. (And for trivia lovers, the Torrington Company, which made pedals and bike parts for many years was only a few minutes' drive northwest of Bristol and New Britain). All three companies are defunct now. Growing up, I had friends and family who worked at both Torrington Co. and New Departure (Corbin Screw of New Britain was long gone by then).

The 1970s Raleighs are hard to follow in terms of what the company was doing. They were still on the cost-cutting kick, but they also were manufacturing in different places, using different parts than previously, starting to use contracted rather than in-house parts in some cases, etc. I'll look at my Supraseal rims again and see if there's a manufacturing mark anywhere. The other place to check would be the recent book "Raleigh Past and Presence". I don't think the Supraseals are Canadian - I have a set on my 1974 Sports that has the "Made in England, Assembled in USA" sticker (rather than the usual "Made in England" sticker). The Supraseals are a well-made rim, whatever their origin. The 36 hole configuration opens up a wider range of hub options, but the downside is you can't then just go to the common 32/40 Raleigh spoke charts for spoke lengths. Learn-as-you-go sort of thing... The "590" marking and the general style of rim does have a Dutch kind of feel to it though...

52telecaster 07-28-21 12:31 AM

Anyone want to hazard a guess on frame size on this triumph?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...48d47d56b4.jpg
Just a screenshot but I think I'm going to pick this up.

dirtman 07-28-21 12:45 AM

I have no use for the early ND parts or hubs, my interests don't go that far back.
I've got a few balloon tire bikes, both pre and post war, a few middleweights, and a half dozen English three speeds myself.
I'm thinking that the 27" rims will be good rims to use on a 23" Sprite frame I've got here.

Wasn't New Departure a GM company? I remember seeing ND logos and part numbers in factory transmission training manuals back in the early 70's.

FBOATSB 07-28-21 02:31 AM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 22160731)
I have no use for the early ND parts or hubs, my interests don't go that far back.
I've got a few balloon tire bikes, both pre and post war, a few middleweights, and a half dozen English three speeds myself.
I'm thinking that the 27" rims will be good rims to use on a 23" Sprite frame I've got here.

Wasn't New Departure a GM company? I remember seeing ND logos and part numbers in factory transmission training manuals back in the early 70's.

This might be of some interest, to some:
New Departure

SirMike1983 07-28-21 06:59 AM

Yes, it was a GM company. A portion of it continued to operate in Bristol into the 1990s (2000s maybe?). A large portion of the bearings business went to Ohio in the mid-1960s, but a portion of the company continued operating in Bristol, Conn. making certain parts for the GM cars into the 1990s. The surviving portion of New Departure and Torrington Company pressed on longer than most of the medium scale manufacturers here. They both closed around the turn of the millenium when years of gradual outsourcing by the parent companies caught up with them. My older brother worked at the Torrington Co in the 1980s and a couple of family friends worked at New Departure starting from the 1970s to the time it closed. New Departure's hubs were among the best in the world prior to WWII, but the designs did not receive a lot of development post-war. There was more money in cars.

New Departure also made some interesting two-speed and three-speed designs. The multigear hubs and hub parts are expensive today. I've seen a few American-made light roadsters that were 2 speeds or 3 speeds because of New Departure hub upgrades. The balloon tire bike guys tend to harvest the multispeed hubs from the roadsters because they want them for high-end ballooners.

Ballenxj 07-28-21 07:02 AM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 22160726)
Anyone want to hazard a guess on frame size on this triumph?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...48d47d56b4.jpg
Just a screenshot but I think I'm going to pick this up.

Looks slightly larger than a 23", so my best guess is 24"?

cudak888 07-28-21 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 22160924)
Looks slightly larger than a 23", so my best guess is 24"?

Definitely a 23" - these would have been 21" or 23" only. The DL-1's were 22" / 24".

There's a possibly it's had a front ender that makes the headtube look longer than it is, but it looks OK.

-Kurt

52telecaster 07-28-21 02:04 PM


Originally Posted by Ballenxj (Post 22160924)
Looks slightly larger than a 23", so my best guess is 24"?

I was thinking 23. I'll find out tomorrow. Always wanted a 3 speed sports that wasn't too small.

clubman 07-28-21 02:06 PM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 22161575)
Always wanted a 3 speed sports that wasn't too small.

Don't we all? ;)

52telecaster 07-28-21 02:09 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22161578)
Don't we all? ;)

I've tried making a 21 fit but it just doesn't satisfy.

clubman 07-28-21 02:18 PM

I find the women's frames to be more adaptable in terms of range of fitment. But then again, I fit a 21" like buttah.

52telecaster 07-28-21 02:26 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 22161600)
I find the women's frames to be more adaptable in terms of range of fitment. But then again, I fit a 21" like buttah.

lucky you. 23 works for me but 24 does too in a french fit sort of way. I really love porter or north road bars so all of my bikes kind of look like old English 3 speeds anyway.

dirtman 07-28-21 04:15 PM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 22160920)
Yes, it was a GM company. A portion of it continued to operate in Bristol into the 1990s (2000s maybe?). A large portion of the bearings business went to Ohio in the mid-1960s, but a portion of the company continued operating in Bristol, Conn. making certain parts for the GM cars into the 1990s. The surviving portion of New Departure and Torrington Company pressed on longer than most of the medium scale manufacturers here. They both closed around the turn of the millenium when years of gradual outsourcing by the parent companies caught up with them. My older brother worked at the Torrington Co in the 1980s and a couple of family friends worked at New Departure starting from the 1970s to the time it closed. New Departure's hubs were among the best in the world prior to WWII, but the designs did not receive a lot of development post-war. There was more money in cars.

New Departure also made some interesting two-speed and three-speed designs. The multigear hubs and hub parts are expensive today. I've seen a few American-made light roadsters that were 2 speeds or 3 speeds because of New Departure hub upgrades. The balloon tire bike guys tend to harvest the multispeed hubs from the roadsters because they want them for high-end ballooners.

I've got a few twin streak hubs here, and a couple Bendix 2 speeds from the 50's, they came from a lot of stuff I bought a little over a year ago. The Bendix hubs are complete with cables, the ND hubs are both missing their cables. I opened a few of them up just out of curiosity and they looked like new inside, just needed some fresh grease. I doubt I'd ever build one into a wheel for anything though. I thought one bike I have would have taken one but it turned out that the right hub for the later 50's was a kickback 2 speed. I hunted one down, built up a new old stock set of wheels and didn't like it when it was all done, so it got sold. The gear ratios of the yellow band two speed didn't work for me on a heavy Schwinn cruiser. Its more fun with a straight single speed coaster brake.
I had a friend list the ND Twin Streak on fleabay back in the spring, it went off at $118 but the buyer never paid and the second place bidder didn't respond. She was going on vacation so it never got relisted.
I've got a bunch of Sturmey Archer S5 hubs and some complete internals as well. They were going for good money for a while but it seems to be hit or miss on ebay, the last few went super cheap. I've also still got a few ladies Sprites with those hubs, one of which has become my personal beater bike this summer. Not because of the S5 hub, but because of he baskets all over it.

jamesj 07-28-21 07:59 PM

Man I wish I was closer I would totally pick this up fro my wife.


Originally Posted by thumpism (Post 22158781)


2fat2fly 07-29-21 03:43 AM

I've been watching this bike all summer now, I didn't realize it was the same seller who was selling tires on CL here as well.
I went to pickup a pair of Michelin tires the other day for another bike and he had the Sports right there as well.
I was in my company car, so there was no way i was buying a bike on the spot, but I'm seriously thinking about going back and trying to make a deal on it.
The thing is by far the cleanest one of these I've ever seen in recent years, probably since they were still being sold new.
Its all original, right down to the tires, and even they don't feel bad. No rust, no dents, its not all scratched up, and its a 23" frame.
I remember looking at one just like it back then and not having the cash to buy one new back then.
I figured if i can get it for $200, I'd be doing pretty good considering its condition. If not, maybe I can get the seller to throw in a new set of tires for it.
I'll be back down that area in two weeks, I can take my personal car that day instead of a car from work. .
Not that I need another bike but I wouldn't mind having a really clean one in the garage.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1ab3d95bdb.jpg

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/b...346835436.html

52telecaster 07-29-21 12:54 PM

I just picked up this 1971 triumph. I would have been 14 when the hub was made. 2-71. First time I have ever found a reasonably priced English 3 speed in my size.
23" for 35 bucks and while rusty and with a loose headset, everything works. Unfortunately I lost the oil cap to the hub. It was a plastic one so if anyone knows where replacements are, that would be great.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6a9be46a6b.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5cc58967b7.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d19f2a1623.jpg

dirtman 07-29-21 02:35 PM

I don't see many Triumph bikes around my way, the only two I've seen over the years were 50's era bikes, one was rusted beyond repair, the other one had a bent frame and had 10 coats of house paint on it. All that was really salvageable was one headbadge and a crankset.

Your bike looks like its got one Raleigh pattern (Westrick), rear rim and one Dunlop Endrick front rim?
The bike looks older than 1971, and a quick guess is that the rear wheel has been swapped out.
I can't speak for Philips in particular but most of my bikes with that front sprocket are mid 60's or older.
Your bike also has the older style pedals on it, which of course could have also been changed but
when looking at various models back then, both in catalogs and my own bikes, it appears that they started switching to reflector pedals around '68-'69.
I have a 1969 Raleigh Sports and a a 68 Sprite 5 with reflector pedals,a 69 Robin Hood Sports with them as well. My 1962, 65, and '67 Robin Hood bikes do not. My 1965 Robin Hood has the newer three spoke front sprocket, but all my older non-Raleigh TI bikes have the snowflake pattern like yours.
All have the rubber rear reflector mount on the rear fenders.

Overall though it looks like with a little elbow grease and some fresh lube it looks like it'll clean up nicely.

dirtman 07-29-21 03:15 PM


Originally Posted by 2fat2fly (Post 22162297)
I've been watching this bike all summer now, I didn't realize it was the same seller who was selling tires on CL here as well.
I went to pickup a pair of Michelin tires the other day for another bike and he had the Sports right there as well.
I was in my company car, so there was no way i was buying a bike on the spot, but I'm seriously thinking about going back and trying to make a deal on it.
The thing is by far the cleanest one of these I've ever seen in recent years, probably since they were still being sold new.
Its all original, right down to the tires, and even they don't feel bad. No rust, no dents, its not all scratched up, and its a 23" frame.
I remember looking at one just like it back then and not having the cash to buy one new back then.
I figured if i can get it for $200, I'd be doing pretty good considering its condition. If not, maybe I can get the seller to throw in a new set of tires for it.
I'll be back down that area in two weeks, I can take my personal car that day instead of a car from work. .
Not that I need another bike but I wouldn't mind having a really clean one in the garage.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1ab3d95bdb.jpg

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/b...346835436.html


I've seen that ad listed for a long time, along with several others in that area and none of them ever seem to sell.
I keep hearing about how there are no good bikes or that folks can't find bikes period these days and bikes like that just sit
unsold for months. I suppose if that bike was 20 miles farther north or so it would have sold a long time ago.
I've answered ads for far lesser bikes in areas closer to the city and not once gotten there in time over the past three years.
People also want a bike like that for $20 not $200. Lately it seems they reserve the big money for department store bikes.
Getting more than about $80 for a bike these days is tough, regardless of what it is. Most simply don't know the difference between
a Raleigh and a Walmart bike with many preferring the Walmart bike.

52telecaster 07-29-21 04:47 PM


Originally Posted by dirtman (Post 22163148)
I don't see many Triumph bikes around my way, the only two I've seen over the years were 50's era bikes, one was rusted beyond repair, the other one had a bent frame and had 10 coats of house paint on it. All that was really salvageable was one headbadge and a crankset.

Your bike looks like its got one Raleigh pattern (Westrick), rear rim and one Dunlop Endrick front rim?
The bike looks older than 1971, and a quick guess is that the rear wheel has been swapped out.
I can't speak for Philips in particular but most of my bikes with that front sprocket are mid 60's or older.
Your bike also has the older style pedals on it, which of course could have also been changed but
when looking at various models back then, both in catalogs and my own bikes, it appears that they started switching to reflector pedals around '68-'69.
I have a 1969 Raleigh Sports and a a 68 Sprite 5 with reflector pedals,a 69 Robin Hood Sports with them as well. My 1962, 65, and '67 Robin Hood bikes do not. My 1965 Robin Hood has the newer three spoke front sprocket, but all my older non-Raleigh TI bikes have the snowflake pattern like yours.
All have the rubber rear reflector mount on the rear fenders.

Overall though it looks like with a little elbow grease and some fresh lube it looks like it'll clean up nicely.

thank you so much. I was seriously thinking about building wheels since these dont match. I have some some 650a sunrims and a 1954 aluminum cased aw. I would also use a modern Dyno hub on front. Does that seem a reasonable thing to do?

Also, would this bottom bracket be the Raleigh only threading?

JohnDThompson 07-29-21 06:22 PM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 22163324)
would this bottom bracket be the Raleigh only threading?

Sheldon Brown offers this advice: "Almost all Raleigh-threaded bikes have the rear fender eyelets located directly behind the axle, instead of above it."

https://cdn-0.sheldonbrown.com/image...leigh-rect.gif

Of course, the definitive answer is only obtained by opening it up and actually checking the threads.

clubman 07-29-21 06:39 PM


Originally Posted by 52telecaster (Post 22163324)

Also, would this bottom bracket be the Raleigh only threading?

Almost certainly, yes.

52telecaster 07-29-21 06:54 PM

It has the eyelets so the bottom bracket must be the Raleigh spec.


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