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-   Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area (https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=210)
-   -   Interesting finds around the web (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=929230)

Velocirapture 02-04-15 02:12 AM

nice vid (flying lap) gloves need a wash haha! :-P. wonder what the camera did for the aerodynamics of his Casco??.
I'm suprised at the wind-up, though. Looks like an extra lap, if my brain wasn't boggled by the lights and crowd ;-)

Velocirapture 02-04-15 02:31 AM

Aeroweenie.com - Aero Data Compendium

Dalai 02-04-15 05:12 AM


Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 17527206)

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-conten...ng_minions.gif

dunderhi 02-04-15 06:27 AM


Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 17527206)

No time to read it this morning, but this looks awesome! :thumb:

Velocirapture 02-04-15 07:38 AM


Originally Posted by dunderhi (Post 17527346)
No time to read it this morning, but this looks awesome! :thumb:

I foresee a very late night of reading for myself, too. :D

Have only had a look at one or two links - all fascinating so far. (We can now all conclusively say that wind-tunnel tests have shown shaved legs have a statistically significant aerodynamic .... difference from hairy legs)

myth001 02-04-15 09:29 AM


Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 17527438)
We can now all conclusively say that wind-tunnel tests have shown shaved legs have a statistically significant aerodynamic .... difference from hairy legs

LOL, the first thing that caught my attention too... Gotta run that by my wife and see if she'll still stay w me if I shaved my legs. :p

Seriously a 50-82 second difference over 40km is significant. I'd say similar would apply for hairy arms too.

Velocirapture 02-04-15 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by myth001 (Post 17527713)
LOL, the first thing that caught my attention too... Gotta run that by my wife and see if she'll still stay w me if I shaved my legs. :p

Seriously a 50-82 second difference over 40km is significant. I'd say similar would apply for hairy arms too.

For sure ^ And hairy arms have the added (?) factor of being perpendicular to the airflow - so to my mind, a possibly amplifying the resistance effect? (like cells in series, vs cells in parallel). but my reasoning might be flawed.

rndstr 02-04-15 04:43 PM

Great find carleton, thanks for posting!

I'm bummed I didn't realize Nate and Missy were at the Berlin Sixdays otherwise I might have figured a way to go. I saw them at the LAVRA a few times and they are great people.

Missy's smile when she podiums is priceless https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6MqpBWNGXE

gtrob 02-04-15 09:52 PM

Not sure how or why I came across this the other day (I don't hang out on lifting forums at all) but thought this was so applicable to cycling, even track

The 80/20 rule
The 80/20 Rule for Lifting - Bodybuilding.com Forums

The idea is that 20% of the details will get you 80% of your results. So the basics, eating right, sleeping well, riding hard, is 20% of the theory of training, but get you 80% of your results. While all the details like how much to eat, how long are intervals, what time should I train, all the non-sense, makes up for only 20% (generally speaking of course).

I love it, and think its such a good message. People get hung up on training plan details, diets, periodization, etc. If you just do the basics, eat well, sleep well, ride hard, you will get most of the way there and have a lot more fun doing it.


Its not to say ignore the fine details, especially as you get to the top of your game. But people new to the sport, really need to just worry about the 20% for a while and its all they need to progress and enjoy the sport.

Racer Ex 02-05-15 01:43 AM

People new to the sport need all the help they can get, not a platitude. Racing, like it or not, is a 100% sport. Not 80%, though too many people treat it as such.

People end up in hospitals (a lot) and even dead doing this.

The 80/20 "rule" is laughable because it assumes people have some brain implant that makes the "basics" already hardwired. Quick...what's eating right? Or riding hard? I mean every one will agree what those things are, right? Go over to the 41 and see how many different answers you get, and how much of it is completely stupid.

Dalai 02-05-15 04:20 AM


Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 17527732)
...but my reasoning might be flawed.

Yes it is...

Velocirapture 02-05-15 06:04 AM


Originally Posted by Dalai (Post 17529833)
Yes it is...

expound a little further?

Dalai 02-05-15 06:26 AM

Too late tonight to link the relevant studies. But a vertical cylinder is far worse aerodynamically then a horizontal cylinder regardless of the surface...

I haven't taken as much interest in material aerodynamics so can't quote immediately, so I will need to look back over the various studies I linked recently again about the interaction of materials on the forearms. I am sure if it was proven to be faster, cyclists would already be shaving down like swimmers do before big meets.

dunderhi 02-05-15 07:44 AM


Originally Posted by Dalai (Post 17529899)
Too late tonight to link the relevant studies. But a vertical cylinder is far worse aerodynamically then a horizontal cylinder regardless of the surface...

I haven't taken as much interest in material aerodynamics so can't quote immediately, so I will need to look back over the various studies I linked recently again about the interaction of materials on the forearms. I am sure if it was proven to be faster, cyclists would already be shaving down like swimmers do before big meets.

Clock racers are already wearing long sleeve skinsuits for the aero advantage. Shaving your arms appears to be a cheaper method of acheiving a similar result.

dunderhi 02-05-15 08:13 AM


Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 17529772)
People new to the sport need all the help they can get, not a platitude. Racing, like it or not, is a 100% sport. Not 80%, though too many people treat it as such.

People end up in hospitals (a lot) and even dead doing this.

The 80/20 "rule" is laughable because it assumes people have some brain implant that makes the "basics" already hardwired. Quick...what's eating right? Or riding hard? I mean every one will agree what those things are, right? Go over to the 41 and see how many different answers you get, and how much of it is completely stupid.

People ending up dead? That sounds a bit extreme in response to eat well, sleep well, ride hard, and have some fun.

I'm a rider who has returned after decades of being away from the sport and I see a sport that has taken an very technical approach to training. Periodization? Power meters? Ketonics? This is all new to me. I understand if one is Pro or an Elite racer where fractions of a second make difference between a podium spot or packing up and going home early. For the 99% of us from the newbie (cat 5) to a regional racer (cat 2), I think the 80/20 sounds like a good idea, especially since that is what I am doing and I have no plans of ending up dead. Ride frequently, mix up hard rides with easy rides, go climb mountains or sprint against friends, don't eat too much in response to your training, and get enough sleep such that the alarm clock is not your enemy. This doesn't sound like a death sentence to me, but then again, I have no idea where to find the 41. I'm just having too much fun enjoying cycling. ;)

Jared. 02-05-15 08:57 AM


Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 17529772)
The 80/20 "rule" is laughable because it assumes people have some brain implant that makes the "basics" already hardwired. Quick...what's eating right? Or riding hard? I mean every one will agree what those things are, right? Go over to the 41 and see how many different answers you get, and how much of it is completely stupid.

Where in the linked post does it make that assumption?

Almost no one will disagree that eating whole foods and avoiding junk/processed food is basic in "eating right". Also, how many times has advice been given in this exact forum that when first starting, just riding around will show significant improvement amongst beginners. How many people here state that track time is very important in progression.

You're reinforcing the point of the post when you talk about asking other forum posters for abstract yet personally nuanced approach to eating, sleeping etc.

That post is spot on. Thanks @gtrob for sharing.

gtrob 02-05-15 09:14 AM

You've been spending to much time in the 41, and that thread is exactly what some people there need (I wouldnt dare post it there as it will just digress into a thread about **** or obama likely)

So to your point a newbie rider should be worried about protein amounts, exact intervals durations, cassette choices for racing, and their body weight down to the gram? Thats the 80% that gets you the 20%. People new to the sport dont need ALL the help they can get, as most of the help can't be given to them yet. Would you teach someone who doesn't even know pack riding skills race tactics? Why not, they need all the help right! No, you ignore the plethora of fine details (80%) and teach them the core skills first (20%).

I think you are just reading it wrong, its not 'ignore 4/5ths of what everyone tells you', its dont sweat the details. If the person is to dumb to realize what core common sense advice is and what is minutia detail, I guess thats what cycling coaches were invented for :P



Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 17529772)
People new to the sport need all the help they can get, not a platitude. Racing, like it or not, is a 100% sport. Not 80%, though too many people treat it as such.

People end up in hospitals (a lot) and even dead doing this.

The 80/20 "rule" is laughable because it assumes people have some brain implant that makes the "basics" already hardwired. Quick...what's eating right? Or riding hard? I mean every one will agree what those things are, right? Go over to the 41 and see how many different answers you get, and how much of it is completely stupid.


queerpunk 02-05-15 09:14 AM


Originally Posted by gtrob (Post 17529500)
Its not to say ignore the fine details, especially as you get to the top of your game. But people new to the sport, really need to just worry about the 20% for a while and its all they need to progress and enjoy the sport.

I think there's something to this.

Someone I know is returning to cycling after a 6-year hiatus. She had maybe a season and a half before that hiatus. During the hiatus, she still rode her bike regularly but mostly as a commuter. And, she just had an extremely full season back in race mode - tons of crits, track, and cx. She had a killer season - hard at first, but just constant gains in fitness. It's not because she's training with great precision or anything - it's just the regularity of racing and training provides this huge, initial platform for adaptation.

I've seen this happen with a lot of newbies, too - especially ones who are already athletic. Riders like this get gains from just doing what they do. Simply riding and racing a lot leads to the greatest gains. Getting more involved is great, but it's not necessary to make those initial gains.

I wouldn't describe the rule as 80/20, but there is something to be said for the fact that big, intitial gains can come simply. I guess the important part is knowing that there's a point at which that will change, and continuing to make gains is going to get a lot harder.

gtrob 02-05-15 09:19 AM

Specialized did a few 'hairy' tests recently, not sure I remember seeing arms though. They did test beards however and found no slow down with even a pretty thick beard. Where the hairy legs showed to be a pretty large effect.

As Dalai pointed out before, skin is always slower than fabric, and to that end I would guess hair is slower than skin. I guess it just depends how monkey-like your arms are. Of course, you can cover them up.


Originally Posted by dunderhi (Post 17530015)
Clock racers are already wearing long sleeve skinsuits for the aero advantage. Shaving your arms appears to be a cheaper method of acheiving a similar result.


Baby Puke 02-05-15 10:38 AM

I missed something. What is "the 41"?

wens 02-05-15 11:32 AM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 17530561)
I missed something. What is "the 41"?

Road cycling sub forum

Baby Puke 02-05-15 12:53 PM

Ah, no wonder I'm oblivious. Thanks.

carleton 02-05-15 12:57 PM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 17530997)
Ah, no wonder I'm oblivious. Thanks.

FYI: They say that road bikes are like track bikes but you can magically change the cog by flipping a switch. I don't think anyone has ever seen one in person, though. I think it's a myth. It's impossible to do for so many reasons. And get this...they say they ride them for HOURS...LOL. I want to smoke what they are smoking :D

Baby Puke 02-05-15 04:14 PM

Yeah, right, Carleton. HOURS?? That's ridiculous.

Racer Ex 02-05-15 05:43 PM


Originally Posted by dunderhi (Post 17530088)
I'm a rider who has returned after decades of being away from the sport and I see a sport that has taken an very technical approach to training. Periodization? Power meters? Ketonics? This is all new to me.

Most of the old school people who denigrate the newer technical aspects of the sport don't understand them. It's like taking a rotary dial phone away and handing them an iPhone.

You've assumed everyone isn't having fun (or as much as they could) or progresses faster using the new tools, and you've decided that people don't need them unless they are Cat 1, and that it's "nonsense". It's admittedly new to you, yet you've decided you know enough to pass judgement.

Your judgement certainly flies in the face of my personal experience (see below), of most of the athletes I coach, and of many of the people I race with. Not all, but plenty enough.


Originally Posted by dunderhi (Post 17530088)
People ending up dead? That sounds a bit extreme in response to eat well, sleep well, ride hard, and have some fun.

I know of two new riders who have died in the past few years. Go to any local crit and count the ambulance rides. It's 100% sport because it can cost you 100%. We take way too casual of an approach with new racers compared to most sports with similar risks. Probably 30% of what we should be doing. Another math topic for another time.

I did/do mentoring at local races. Half the guys in Cat 5 races have their helmet straps hanging around their collar. Most of them don't have power meters, diet, or training plans. Or 12 lb bikes. They think ketone is a punk band. They pin their numbers on upside yet are supposed to figure out what "ride hard" means. They have a wealth of vague/bad advice though.

Making the blanket assumption that any of the new paradigm gets in the way of learning how to race is also wrong. Old school folks did just as much stupid stuff without the modern distractions. And I know a ton of old school folks who burned out or went slow on your "ride hard" program. I know a lot of folks who do the same today. Because it's amorphous. Just like "eat well" or "avoid processed foods". Water is processed. So is pasta, wine, coffee, oatmeal and a bunch of other stuff.

The devil, like in many things, is in the details. And if you think people can solve simple problems, check this out. My friend runs a cardiac rehab unit. His quote: "Everyone tells me they eat well"

FWIW I started racing in 2004. 44 year old cat 5. Used all the technology I could find, hired a coach, Etc. I was a cat 1 by 2008. To date:

Race Total 555
Win Total 141
Podium Totals 244
Top Ten totals 379
State Champ 17
State Medals 32
Out of State Champ 3
Natl Champ 3
National Medals 6
National Records 1
Course records 1

This includes stage races, TT's, track, RR's, crits, and even the odd MTB race. Won state titles in all those disciplines. Won two cyclocross races (not proud to admit that). Most of this was done on 6-10 hours of specific training a week and a mediocre sprint.

You know what? Crushing souls is fun. A lot of fun. Certainly more fun than being blown out the back. I even won $3k one weekend.

If I added on stuff my athletes have done there would be a lot more good stuff in there. I work with a diverse group and they are all pretty happy with what they are getting out of the "nonsense". But that's them.

Lest folks think I'm demanding everyone should have 3 SRM's (a fact I'm not especially proud of), a coach, a body fat analyzer, an oxygen concentrator, and a wind tunnel, I'm not. Whatever floats your boat. If you like the technical aspects embrace them.

If dealing with the technical stuff isn't fun, then don't do it. Same with following a training plan. Same with diet. I had pizza and a bottle of wine last night.

Just don't tell me what sinks your boat won't float mine and very effective tools are "nonsense".


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