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Hrothgar42 12-20-17 08:38 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20064206)
To make the cut, a male would have to ride a 10.046 indoors below 1,500M altitude.

To get funding, that’s correct. To qualify at all, you have to hit a 10.103. Which still proves your point.

I can kind of get my head around why you’d have some (maybe not these) qualifying times for Sprint since seeding is based off a flying 200. But, why does team sprint have qualifying times if team pursuit is based only on results?

The bronze level does seem more relaxed for TS than for TP, but the silver level looks quite similar, only with qualifying times for TS.

queerpunk 12-20-17 09:09 PM

I think that makes perfect sense. The goal of the program is to identify, support, and develop medal-capable athletes. going under 10.0 is a prerequisite.

the hard truth is that for men's sprint, the US has lagged behind for a while. there are not men who can really compete on the world-class stage, let alone be medal capable. maybe the national team's support will give more people something to shoot for.

carleton 12-20-17 09:27 PM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20064435)
I think that makes perfect sense. The goal of the program is to identify, support, and develop medal-capable athletes. going under 10.0 is a prerequisite.

the hard truth is that for men's sprint, the US has lagged behind for a while. there are not men who can really compete on the world-class stage, let alone be medal capable. maybe the national team's support will give more people something to shoot for.

So, is the purpose of these programs to identify fast athletes or to develop fast athletes?

While these are related and go hand-in-hand, they are very different things. It seems that USA Cycling's approach to all of this is Talent Identification, not Talent Development.

Identifying talent is free and easy (the way USA Cycling does it...just wait for someone to show up at Nationals or an international event and make the podium). Developing talent is expensive and hard (this means hiring a coach for more than 2 years at a time and committing to individual athletes for years instead of months).

Development is expensive. This is why the idea of money being allotted to the athletes sounds great. But, this is like telling NASA that that their space program will be funded...after they build a space program on their own dime and they will never be reimbursed for prior expenses.

carleton 12-20-17 09:56 PM

This is literally like saying, "We'll let you go to the Olympics for us if you win the Olympics on your own....maybe."

taras0000 12-20-17 10:49 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20064499)
....maybe."

I bet there are a few of us who know all too well the power of "maybe" when it comes to selections.

DMC707 12-21-17 01:24 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20064460)
So, is the purpose of these programs to identify fast athletes or to develop fast athletes?

While these are related and go hand-in-hand, they are very different things. It seems that USA Cycling's approach to all of this is Talent Identification, not Talent Development.

.


The model seems to be 20 years behind still

I'll use Marty as an example ------ its widely known that the Bear took an interest in him early on and helped develop him ---

Then - USAC has a lightbulb moment and says huzzah! -- a WC candidate we can get our hopes up for ! ---- Or the Carney bros - who had been riding road at a pro/cat1/2 level for years

Like you said, ---- they did not develop talent, they identified it -- (old references,sure )

Baby Puke 12-21-17 02:08 AM

Juniors. It's the only way, really.

queerpunk 12-21-17 08:21 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20064499)
So, is the purpose of these programs to identify fast athletes or to develop fast athletes?

While these are related and go hand-in-hand, they are very different things. It seems that USA Cycling's approach to all of this is Talent Identification, not Talent Development.

Identifying talent is free and easy (the way USA Cycling does it...just wait for someone to show up at Nationals or an international event and make the podium). Developing talent is expensive and hard (this means hiring a coach for more than 2 years at a time and committing to individual athletes for years instead of months).

Development is expensive. This is why the idea of money being allotted to the athletes sounds great. But, this is like telling NASA that that their space program will be funded...after they build a space program on their own dime and they will never be reimbursed for prior expenses.

...

This is literally like saying, "We'll let you go to the Olympics for us if you win the Olympics on your own....maybe."

Your thesis here is that the Nat'l Team is just reaping the rewards of people who got fast on their own. That people who haven't met the eligibility criteria for full support are not in any way being developed. You're incorrect.

What's been happening for the past year and a half (ish) is that the National Team is identifying fast racers, and making them faster. They are developing riders who have not yet automatically qualified for support. That's a bit more nebulous; it didn't make it into the press release. Athletes (both sprint and enduro) have been staying in Colorado receiving USAC coaching, camps, and other resources. And going to international competitions representing the national team. This process - identifying talent, developing riders who haven't qualified for this "medal-capable" level of support - has not been free and easy. Nothing is.

I'm sorry that you think the bar is too high but if people qualified for full-fledged support for going under like 11 seconds or whatever, then USAC and USOC would be wasting their money. They'd have a better chance of getting an Olympic medal by lighting money on fire and hoping that Roy Knickman comes to put it out.

carleton 12-21-17 08:34 AM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20064839)
Your thesis here is that the Nat'l Team is just reaping the rewards of people who got fast on their own. That people who haven't met the eligibility criteria for full support are not in any way being developed. You're incorrect.

What's been happening for the past year and a half (ish) is that the National Team is identifying fast racers, and making them faster. They are developing riders who have not yet automatically qualified for support. That's a bit more nebulous; it didn't make it into the press release. Athletes (both sprint and enduro) have been staying in Colorado receiving USAC coaching, camps, and other resources. And going to international competitions representing the national team. This process - identifying talent, developing riders who haven't qualified for this "medal-capable" level of support - has not been free and easy. Nothing is.

I'm sorry that you think the bar is too high but if people qualified for full-fledged support for going under like 11 seconds or whatever, then USAC and USOC would be wasting their money. They'd have a better chance of getting an Olympic medal by lighting money on fire and hoping that Roy Knickman comes to put it out.

1) I only know what's in the press release and what I see in the race reports. If they are doing more on the side, then that's awesome.

2) I never said that the bar should be raised to 11 seconds. I did say (in a previous post) that if a rider beats everyone else in the USA, that they should be on the team.

The bigger problem is that training at this level requires two-a-day work, plus lots of time resting to recover. In order for athletes in their 20s and early 30s to train like this, they cannot hold a day job to pay bills. They must either: Be paid to train, be paid by sponsors for track racing, be paid by sponsors for road racing, have spouse carry the financial burden, live free with parents.

A better question is, why have our best sprinters in the past 5 years stopped sprinting? My guess is that money was a big factor. If a national team athlete as a GoFundMe page, that's a problem.

SyntaxMonstr 12-24-17 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20064499)
This is literally like saying, "We'll let you go to the Olympics for us if you win the Olympics on your own....maybe."

Haha, this is almost verbatim what I was told by my national cycling federation and the sponsors I approached.

gycho77 12-25-17 07:49 AM


carleton 12-27-17 07:15 PM

The Bos is Back.

Today he won 3rd in the Dutch Sprint National Championship. His Beat teammate Buchli won first. What's notable is that Theo Boss rode a 10.098" for 5th in qualifying and eliminated both Van den Berg and Jeff Hoogland (2017 European Championships Kilo Gold and Sprint Silver) on his way to third in the tournament.

That's a helluva comeback!

For those who don't know, Theo Bos started as a track sprint star then moved over to pro road racing for a few years and now at age 34 is kicking butt on the track again.

Baby Puke 12-27-17 09:17 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20075275)
The Bos is Back.

Today he won 3rd in the Dutch Sprint National Championship. His Beat teammate Buchli won first. What's notable is that Theo Boss rode a 10.098" for 5th in qualifying and eliminated both Van den Berg and Jeff Hoogland (2017 European Championships Kilo Gold and Sprint Silver) on his way to third in the tournament.

That's a helluva comeback!

For those who don't know, Theo Bos started as a track sprint star then moved over to pro road racing for a few years and now at age 34 is kicking butt on the track again.

Love this. He's gonna have to do under 10 to make it at worlds/olys tho...

carleton 12-27-17 10:00 PM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 20075474)
Love this. He's gonna have to do under 10 to make it at worlds/olys tho...

I know, right?

I just realized that he’ll be old enough to race Masters Worlds* next year. Crazy.


*He wouldn’t be eligible because he has raced UCI elite races in the past year or something like that.

taras0000 12-27-17 10:21 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20075524)

*He wouldn’t be eligible because he has raced UCI elite races in the past year or something like that.

So you're saying that I still have a chance...

queerpunk 12-28-17 07:33 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20075524)
I know, right?

I just realized that he’ll be old enough to race Masters Worlds* next year. Crazy.


*He wouldn’t be eligible because he has raced UCI elite races in the past year or something like that.

Nope, you can race Masters Worlds with UCI points - but you can't race MW if you're on a UCI track team, or have been to a World Cup (or higher level race - conti champs, world champs, olympics) in the past year.

carleton 12-28-17 10:26 AM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20075843)
Nope, you can race Masters Worlds with UCI points - but you can't race MW if you're on a UCI track team, or have been to a World Cup (or higher level race - conti champs, world champs, olympics) in the past year.

Ah. Thanks for the correction!

Baby Puke 12-29-17 06:04 AM

For the Japan nerds among us, I've had time to update my blog over the Christmas break for the first time in nearly four years. Mostly pictures, minimal writing, I promise:
https://keirin-jotourist.blogspot.jp

seau grateau 12-29-17 06:37 AM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 20077844)
For the Japan nerds among us, I've had time to update my blog over the Christmas break for the first time in nearly four years. Mostly pictures, minimal writing, I promise:
https://keirin-jotourist.blogspot.jp

Nice, there's some really cool stuff on there. What kind of pedals are these?

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7d0ZunsV4...0/IMG_2674.jpg

Baby Puke 12-29-17 07:53 AM


Originally Posted by seau grateau (Post 20077861)
Nice, there's some really cool stuff on there. What kind of pedals are these?

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7d0ZunsV4...0/IMG_2674.jpg

Those are the VP Track Pedals, basically a LOOK Keo copy along with copying the recent GB team's strap affixing method. I love them. Plus they're only about $100.

sarals 12-29-17 09:45 AM

@Baby Puke, nice!

carleton 12-29-17 04:44 PM


Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 20077844)
For the Japan nerds among us, I've had time to update my blog over the Christmas break for the first time in nearly four years. Mostly pictures, minimal writing, I promise:
https://keirin-jotourist.blogspot.jp

Congrats on the podium. What event was this?

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MXoWXbR4O...int_podium.jpg

Baby Puke 12-29-17 05:52 PM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 20078967)
Congrats on the podium. What event was this?

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MXoWXbR4O...int_podium.jpg

Thanks! This was the JBCF national championships. JBCF (Japanese Buisinessmen's Cycling Federation) is jitsugyoudan, or "semi-professional" level. It's a category/organization that I don't understand well. It's open to pros and amateur riders, and though there were some professional keirin racers at this event the level was a bit soft compared to some JBCF races I attended over the summer. Still, I'll take it! Still love being the only foreigner.

Baby Puke 12-30-17 04:17 AM

2017 Keirin Grand Prix. Winner takes home ¥100,000,000 (US$1M) I believe. White #2 and orange #7 are Nitta Yudai and Watanabe Kazuhiro, two frequent world cup/world championships/Olympic riders.

Altimis 12-30-17 01:41 PM

^
^
Oh damn, I missed Keirin GP 2017 this year.


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